New Convert fever!

[sunshinewai]

So... I have a friend lol and who is a new convert, and I know in the beginning she was.. (and still is) really really enthusiastic about the Gospel, the blessings of obeying the commandments and all that.. She found herself to be quite judgmental! something she soon learnt to STOP and repent of.. (and still is) lol

But I guess the question is..

Whats up with that!?? and whats up with the Members she has met who are quite comfortably .. hmm how do I say this.. hmmmm.. comfortable.. like.. not observing the Sabbath, swearing, gossiping, talking i'll of other members .. and.. ya know.. like the world.. but they still go to church.. and like.. take the Sacrament.. i mean.. she dont wanna Judge and she hope this is'nt coming off as such.. but yeah.. It's kinda dum.. she wonder's if there is something she's 'lacking in understanding' of.. cos some of these people are Temple patrons etc... Bishops even, and when my friend tries to stand up for what she believes in its like she is scorned??

[Dravin]

If I'm reading you right you are wondering why a judgmental person (your assessment) is not being greeted with butterflies and marshmallows by those she's interacting with? It may not be how you wanted to communicate the situation, but it sounds like she's busy pointing out the motes in other's eyes. That is not a behavior, particularly if done with a not uncommon new member naivety of "How can you not live up to my expectations of a member and call yourself one?", that generally endears one to those it is leveled at.

P.S. Unless she's a Bishop, she's not in a position to be determining if people are worthy of partaking of the sacrament.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Dravin

[beefche]

Do you mean why are there sinners who attend church? Why do people, even people who have strong testimonies, are weak, have problems, are sinful yet continue to try to live the Gospel the best they can? Are you wondering why people get defensive if someone points out their flaws and weaknesses to them?

[rameumptom]

Jesus taught that the healthy have no need of a physician. He went to the sick, in order to heal them. Each of us has weaknesses. Even "your friend" has weaknesses that perhaps she doesn't realize she has, because she's been busy judging others instead.

I recommend that "your friend" try to be a true friend to those who are weaker than she is, and set a righteous and charitable example for them. Perhaps she may help them overcome their own struggles.

I would also recommend that "your friend" seek to learn charity and compassion. Too many of us lack those qualities, and those are perhaps the most important qualities to have! It is easy to judge someone who swears or drinks alcohol. It isn't as easy to recognize oneself as uncharitable and judgmental. And yet that is perhaps the greater crime.

[james12]

But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice. - Matt 9:13 NIV

Edited October 5, 2011 by james12

[Vort]

So... I have a friend lol and who is a new convert, and I know in the beginning she was.. (and still is) really really enthusiastic about the Gospel, the blessings of obeying the commandments and all that.. She found herself to be quite judgmental! something she soon learnt to STOP and repent of.. (and still is) lol

But I guess the question is..

Whats up with that!?? and whats up with the Members she has met who are quite comfortably .. hmm how do I say this.. hmmmm.. comfortable.. like.. not observing the Sabbath, swearing, gossiping, talking i'll of other members .. and.. ya know.. like the world.. but they still go to church.. and like.. take the Sacrament.. i mean.. she dont wanna Judge and she hope this is'nt coming off as such.. but yeah.. It's kinda dum.. she wonder's if there is something she's 'lacking in understanding' of.. cos some of these people are Temple patrons etc... Bishops even, and when my friend tries to stand up for what she believes in its like she is scorned??

Have you ever noticed how, about the time children enter adolescence, they become hypersensitive to inconsistency in speech and action, what they consider "hypocrisy"? Then, after a few more years, they (usually) seem to outgrow it. It's like they never really saw the inconsistencies when they were children, and when they became aware of the existence of such things, it bothered them. Time and maturity generally suffice to help them get past it.

I have observed very similar reactions in new converts to the Church. In joining the Church and making covenants, a literal whole new world is opened to their eyes. But then they see that those who have taken the covenant with them don't follow as they ought. Sometimes these fellow Saints ("as they call themselves!") seem not even to realize they aren't following as they ought, or look as if they're openly flouting their covenants and promises. The almost universal reaction to this is confusion, questioning, and eventual outrage, which expresses itself as "judgmentalism".

Give your friend time to mature spiritually in the gospel. S/he will come to realize that good and decent people can sometimes struggle with some elements of the gospel. S/he will come to see the Church as a hospital for sinners. And, by the way, s/he will meet plenty of people who are truly spiritually mature, who strive to keep all the commandments, even if imperfectly, people whom s/he will want to emulate.

[sister_in_faith]

I think this is how we loose a lot of converts to inactivity. =( As members we have to remember that we have taken on the name of Christ. People are watching us. We are always 'on stage', especially around new members, members who may be questioning, or investigators...

For the new member the OP refers to, it always helped me to remember that we are on our own path. We either move ahead in the gospel, or we slide backwards... I wanted to keep myself busy moving ahead, and let others worry about where they were and if they were going forward or not.

[RMGuy]

Sister_in_faith,

good points but I might add that some of the problem is exactly the fact that many members act as though they are 'on stage'. Whenever I find myself acting, I realize I need to stop. If there is an aspect of my character that I feel I need to hide behind a mask, then perhaps I need to change my character rather than the costume that I wear.

-RM

[sunshinewai]

Thank you all for your comments, especially you Vort I appreciate how you put your reply, and Obvious example of non defensiveness.. as i have noticed a few other comments have come across, I will confess, the person is me.. I agree that maybe I might come across as judgmental and agree that I have need to check myself, and defiantly mature in the Gospel,

- Dravin.. its not MY expectation's it's the Lords.. and never have a Judged a person's worthiness to taking the Sacrament, perhaps just a quiet wonder.. cos i know they'r going home after to church to watch the Rugby lol

-Beefche.. I don't wonder why people get defensive, I can understand why.. I'm not even sure what i'm asking lol I have been thinking about this for a few weeks now, Praying, pondering searching and my answers have been the same..

-Rameumtom.. Note taken, I do repent, I know the way I may be thinking may be wrong. But sometimes i just cant help but wonder.. (just a quiet wonder in my heart)

-James12.. EXACTLY!! I have read, and as always.. i take the scripture's how they read..

-Sister-in-Faith... My concern also..

-RMGuy.. Nice come back :) but i understand where S.I.F is coming from..

Thank you everyone.. Keep the comments coming, I'm working on myself as I go with this query I'm having.. I just wanted to throw this one out there. Deeply appreciate the feedback!!

Edited October 5, 2011 by sunshinewai

[Dravin]

- Dravin.. its not MY expectation's it's the Lords..

Is it? The expectation seems to be that members be perfect and without flaw. The Lord doesn't expect that, he expects us to be working towards perfection. And thus the problem. Those on a fresh spiritual high (and I've been there) are so flushed with the experience that all the problems they used to have seem trivial and then they look down on everyone else who struggles with those 'trivial' issues. The Lord expects great things of his people, but he also understands their flaws and struggles. In a sense you have the first part but are lacking the second.

and never have a Judged a person's worthiness to taking the Sacrament,

Yes, when you express surprise at someone taking the sacrament (particularly in the way you did mixed in with everyone else's failings) because they also do X you are passing judgement on their worthiness to partake of the sacrament. Why would there be surprise over person doing X taking the sacrament they unworthy to do so?

The judgement is so subtle that you aren't noticing it. And it extends beyond that as you're also doing it for going to Church. Not even excommunicated members are considered unworthy to come to Church. I suppose there is another take, not that they are unworthy but that they just shouldn't bother. Which isn't any better, as you are judging them to be so reprobate that it's a wasted effort. Once again, even excommunicated members are invited to come to Church.

Now it may just be the way you are presenting yourself (a very real possibility*), this is a flawed medium, but as it stands your post seems to be about how people dare be imperfect and come to Church, partake of the sacrament, and implicitly, even call themselves Mormon.

*If it is then it's possible I'm not the only other person misreading your presentation. If such, you've got a very real answer to why people react negatively to you sharing like thoughts as the OP.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Dravin

[sister_in_faith]

If you go over to another active member's house to watch a movie, and they put in one that is rated 'R', and you say something about it, or ask them to choose another movie are you being judgemental? If you overhear another member cussing or gossiping and you notice and ask them not to do that when you are around, is that being judgemental? I think that this is the gist of things that the OP is talking about. When we members do these kind of things in front of new members it gets confusing to them. I don't think that anyone honestly expects members of our faith to be without sin or fault, it's just that new people who are trying to mold themselves to fit our 'culture' are hypersensitive to these kinds of things.

I personally think it is a valid question... And forgive/correct me if I didn't get that right sunshinewai... eek!

Edited October 6, 2011 by sister_in_faith

[Dravin]

If you go over to another active member's house to watch a movie, and put in one that is rated 'R', and you say something about it, or ask them to choose another movie are you being judgemental?

No, but when you decide they probably shouldn't partake of the sacrament (or if preferred wonder why they are), or even better, be coming to Church anymore you've kinda gone that direction.

I don't think that anyone honestly expects members of our faith to be without sin or fault, it's just that new people who are trying to mold themselves to fit our 'culture' are hypersensitive to these kinds of things.

And that's the key, it's hypersensitivity brought on and magnified by that spiritual flush I was talking about. And it's not just new members, I was raised in the Church and I was 19 when I first found myself experiencing the flush with it's accompanying disdainful, "Sheesh, it's so easy, why won't you guys be better? Like me!"

I personally think it is a valid question...

What question? It's not entirely clear what the OP is asking (if anything), and even by their own admission they aren't sure what the question is.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Dravin

[sister_in_faith]

Dravin. You are right.

[sister_in_faith]

Is anyone worried that maybe we are judging people for being judgemental?

[LittleWyvern]

Is anyone worried that maybe we are judging people for being judgemental?

Well, to avoid committing our own sin, we can certainly identify what being judgmental is and the qualities of that state, but in order to not be judgmental ourselves we must be careful not to dictate the actions of somebody who is judgmental.

In general I think this whole problem stems from viewing worthiness as a binary condition: you're either worthy or not worthy. The same could be said for "doing what God expects": some people think you're either 100% obedient or 0% obedient. What we need to realize is that worthiness, perfection, obedience, etc. is a gradient, where there are no discrete values (i.e. you can't assign a number to worthiness or perfection, the qualities are non-measurable). All of us have started on different points on these scales and we are all progressing at different rates. I don't believe it matters where we are on this scale as much as that we're progressing on this scale. This model provides a nice solution to the situation in the first post: instead of seeing people below us in obedience and automatically assigning the label hypocrite to all of them, we see individual people with their individual struggles toward perfection (which, of course, is a journey that will take long beyond this life to complete, if it is completeable). We're only hypocrites if we profess to believe in Christ yet are actively degressing. Some of us, of course, will encounter trials in our lives where we'll be blown a few steps back, and that's normal. I don't think we can label anyone a hypocrite unless they are going backward on the scale on purpose.

So, if any recent convert goes inactive over other members of the church being less than perfect, I think it's simply a matter of the recent convert having inaccurate expectations, or the recent convert not understanding what perfection is.

[Dravin]

Is anyone worried that maybe we are judging people for being judgemental?

Judging is not wrong, unrighteous judgement is. The primary distinction is are we judging actions and behavior or are we judging people?

For instance:

Judging an action: Cursing at people is wrong.

Judging a behavior: You shouldn't curse at people.

Unrighteous/Final Judgement: Because you curse at people you are bad/inferior/unworthy/less/going to hell...

There are a lot of people who conflate the final two, but I believe them to be in error. We can say what things people should and shouldn't be doing. Though in a lot of cases we err in our judgement. For instance it seems quite easy to say: You should be having kids. The only problem is that is a decision between a couple and the Lord. Still not unrighteous judgement (even if erroneous), though it is really easy to have unrighteous judgement dovetail on it.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Dravin

[sunshinewai]

Dravin..

Its not about that at all...

I mean it in a way of.. well.. curiosity.. why is it that new converts like myself are so filled with.. hmmm Spirit of enthusiasm/serious joy/conversion?? lol Dare I say anything else..

and then we get another average member.. and.. yeah.. do you even get me? lol Subtle judgment or not.. its the wonder why converts be the way they are and then average members are the way they are..

Excomunitcated members?

Huh?? Its not even about being worthy or not I know that's between that person and the lord.. I have no Judgement as to is a person should be coming to Church lol or calling themselves Mormon, i'm just curious.. and then we get the average Member looking at the new convert like.. i don't know.. hmmmm.. like we're weird lol and too churchy lol

[sunshinewai]

If you would have paid attention in the 1st post..

I have not called anyone a hypocrite,.. nor thought anyone was one, I have not pointed out flaws or weaknesses to anyone either, Well not intentionally like asking them or confronting them, seeing thine mote in their eye, I understand I may have a rod in mine by doing so, to anybody..

I have not asked or wondered why anyone has "lived up to my expectations of a member with marshmallow's and butterflies?" lol

The question is.. Whats up with that?.. and the more I read the more I understand.. again.. all answer's appreciated! <3 Especially yours LittleWyvern! :)

I do not think of anyone as reprobate! especially member's of the Church in high standings! I know the lord has called them for what reason I know not of but that he was called them to the work and no matter how they go about doing that thing I must sustain them..

Which is what I have made a covenant to do.. so i do lol ?? I learn alot by sustaining my leaders.

Edited October 6, 2011 by sunshinewai

[beefche]

So... I have a friend lol and who is a new convert, and I know in the beginning she was.. (and still is) really really enthusiastic about the Gospel, the blessings of obeying the commandments and all that.. She found herself to be quite judgmental! something she soon learnt to STOP and repent of.. (and still is) lol

But I guess the question is..

Whats up with that!??

What's up with what? Why new converts have enthusiasm for the Gospel? Um, because it's new and exciting. I don't understand what you are asking about.

and whats up with the Members she has met who are quite comfortably .. hmm how do I say this.. hmmmm.. comfortable.. like.. not observing the Sabbath, swearing, gossiping, talking i'll of other members .. and.. ya know.. like the world.. but they still go to church.. and like.. take the Sacrament

Here is where we are having some problems. You say you don't want to judge, but you are judging another's actions (not observing the Sabbath, swearing, gossiping) by saying that those things should prevent them from going to church or taking the Sacrament.

We are saying you can judge those actions as wrong for yourself, but it is NOT up to you to say they cannot attend church or take the Sacrament. When you think to yourself, "Hmmm, I heard them swear and now they are taking the sacrament? What's up with that?" is a judgment.

.. i mean.. she dont wanna Judge and she hope this is'nt coming off as such.. but yeah.. It's kinda dum.. she wonder's if there is something she's 'lacking in understanding' of.. cos some of these people are Temple patrons etc... Bishops even, and when my friend tries to stand up for what she believes in its like she is scorned??

Once again, you are saying that these people who you observe and judge as doing things you don't approve of are "temple patrons...bishops even" you are saying that they aren't worthy to be temple patrons or bishops.

I truly don't understand what your question is. Are you asking why some people come to church or take the sacrament although they do things that they shouldn't? Are you asking why a new member has enthusiasm and an established member appears to lack that same enthusiasm? Can you be more clear in what it is you want to know?

[sunshinewai]

To be honest, I'm not even sure

I can see see how it looks like i'm saying they shouldn't be at church,.. or that they are not worthy, but I don't mean it in that way at all.. It's an observation, I know no-one's perfect (especially me) I know I have a lot to learn!

I'm trying to understand my thoughts and feeling's around this myself..

-'established member'.. I like that for some reason.. Established vs New Convert.. hmmmmm

[beefche]

Look, the thing is, we ALL see people and think that they are doing things that we feel aren't right. I've had to learn for myself that when sacrament is being passed that I focus on the Savior and not on the sister in front of me and why she is or isn't taking the sacrament. If that means I need to bury my nose in the hymnbook or scriptures, then I'll do it. It is none of my business why someone is passing the sacrament or not taking it.

And members exhibit their enthusiasm in different ways. As a new member, you feel so many emotions and excitement. That flush does recede. You will come down from that. The key is to retain the excitement even if you aren't "on fire" anymore. I'm happy to smolder and fan fires now rather than always being on fire. Alma talked to the established members of the church in Alma 5--that is an excellent chapter on how to retain the feelings as you come down from your baptism high.

[sunshinewai]

Dang, I keep getting this wrong lol I am not doing that while at Sacrament.. I don't watch others, well not intentionally.. and the comment of the partaking of the sacrament doesn't come from me watching them.. i'm getting my words muddled..

For my searching of the scriptures, talks, Institute lesson's (which I have just re-read from lastnight's lesson ( Chptr 10:What Does it Mean to Sustain a Prophet. [Teachings of the Living Prophets]) to clarify myself.. again.. The message remain's the same.. I love Alma 5.. vs 14 means alot to me, and 15.. 16.. 17.. (Please may i not offend anyone!) but also vs 26.. with the exception of caution in vs 27 and 28..

and to be honest.. I don't want to come down from my baptism high.. But at the same time I don't want to be thinking the things I do in regards to 'established members' I love you all.. love my ward.. love my leaders..

Yet at the same time.. should i be concerned about this feeling of not wanting to 'come down'....

Edited October 6, 2011 by sunshinewai

[Dravin]

I mean it in a way of.. well.. curiosity.. why is it that new converts like myself are so filled with.. hmmm Spirit of enthusiasm/serious joy/conversion?? lol Dare I say anything else..

Because it's new. It's easy to be on fire before the inevitable failures and pet sins and the like accumulate and drag us down a bit. Then you get a feedback loop you have to fight against continually. Think of it this way, you are standing on the top of a hill right now, you have the excitement of learning and being baptized filling you, and you are reveling in the companionship of the Holy Ghost (this is not bad by any means), eventually the influences of the world and your own pet sins will creep up (nobody is perfect, it happens even if what it is varies), this happens and you take a step down. Now that you are on the side not the top each step down is easier than a step up, and each step up requires more effort than staying where you are like it used to. One might even stipulate that the hill is like a upside down parabola, the further you get from the top the steeper the slope which makes the efforts harder. Sometimes in the climb back to the top we stop and rest (not the most desirable thing, but a very human one), and sometimes it seems all we can do is move at a pace imperceptible to others. Establish members (particularly, one hopes, Bishops and Stake Presidents) are familiar with the dangerous and work intensive nature (some more than others) of the slope when you aren't at the top (because they're been down that road even if they've climbed back up) and tend to understand a little better how one can be upward but not there yet, or struggling not to slip back down. They also come to understand that the standards of worthiness don't require perfection, think of standards of worthiness as radius from the top.

A good analogy is school, lots of kids are excited on the first day, but then a bad grades comes, a bully, them spilling lunch on themselves, a subject they don't get without intensive study, getting up every day at 6am doesn't come as easy. They come to understand that excelling is much harder then the first day would have suggested it was.

I have not called anyone a hypocrite,.. nor thought anyone was one, I have not pointed out flaws or weaknesses to anyone either, Well not intentionally like asking them or confronting them, seeing thine mote in their eye, I understand I may have a rod in mine by doing so, to anybody..

You did so to us, and you do so to yourself. You may not have shared names with us (which is good, else you'd be gossiping), but your first post contains a chunk about other people's flaws and weaknesses.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Dravin

[LittleWyvern]

and to be honest.. I don't want to come down from my baptism high.. But at the same time I don't want to be thinking the things I do in regards to 'established members' I love you all.. love my ward.. love my leaders..

Yet at the same time.. should i be concerned about this feeling of not wanting to 'come down'....

You most certainly don't have to lose that enthusiasm from when you are baptized. If seeing other people doing things they're not supposed to gets you down, turn it into a positive thing and lend a helping hand. Since you have been baptized and received the gift of the Holy Ghost, you will receive promptings on what not only you should do for yourself but also how you might help others. God may put you in a position that you may be the best person to help a fellow member with a problem he/she has that you excel at. Now, we need to be careful not to be judgmental here, but as long as we try to emulate the love of Christ and follow His example of helping others, then we won't have to worry about it. Essentially you're taking your enthusiasm and re-focusing it toward something positive not only for you but for others as well.

Of course, you're never going to feel exactly the same as you did when you were baptized (unless perhaps you do baptisms for the dead, those are cool for reliving baptism memories), but that enthusiasm doesn't have to go away.

[heidirunner]

I have just started reading the book of Mormon and someone shared with me Alma 11:37, so this verse makes me nervous for everyone because it looks like your friend and everyone has to STOP SINNING before entering heaven. Hmm, I don't know about anyone else, but I am having a hard time completely stopping sin.