New Convert fever!

[Dravin]

I have just started reading the book of Mormon and someone shared with me Alma 11:37, so this verse makes me nervous for everyone because it looks like your friend and everyone has to STOP SINNING before entering heaven. Hmm, I don't know about anyone else, but I am having a hard time completely stopping sin.

The distinction being made between being saved in your sins versus being saved from your sins. It's the distinction between the repentant sinner versus the unrepentant sinner. Verse 37 is a response to the question asked in verse 34 (and an elaboration on his answer therein). We can not be saved while we are still in our sins, we must be cleansed of them first through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. To be able to be saved in our sins implies we need not repent of them, and it's that false concept Alma is preaching against.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Dravin

[heidirunner]

Okay, but Kimball says we have to complete the 5 steps of repentance, one which says we have to forsake the sin and not repeat it.

[beefche]

Okay, but Kimball says we have to complete the 5 steps of repentance, one which says we have to forsake the sin and not repeat it.

Heidi, how do you know about President Kimball's words if you just now began reading the Book of Mormon (and studying the LDS church)?

BTW, what is your point of your statement? Do you have a question?

[heidirunner]

I have a friend( that I absolutely love :) ) that is Mormon. She seems to really struggle sometimes trying to "keep up" with doing good works and not sinning. I have been studying for a few months. My question is, based on some verses from the Book of Mormon, how do you get to heaven? It seems to me that it is conditional -that you really have to stop sinning. (A friend gave me literature to read and there is all kinds of info on the internet).

[beefche]

The goal is stop sinning and be perfect. But Heavenly Father understands and knows that we are mortal, weak men (women). That's why we have a Savior. He asks us to keep trying to be good and repent when we sin. Each day do a little better than yesterday. It is only through the Atonement of Christ that we can be saved. And only Christ is perfect.

Your friend should read Believing Christ by Stephen Robinson. He discusses in that book EXACTLY what your friend is going through.

[heidirunner]

What about Nephi 3:7-what is your interpretation of that verse?

[pam]

What about Nephi 3:7-what is your interpretation of that verse?

1st, 2nd or 3rd Nephi?

[Vort]

My question is, based on some verses from the Book of Mormon, how do you get to heaven?

The traditional Christian view of "getting to heaven" is very narrow. It's like getting into Harvard. Depending on which sect you ask, it involves doing certain rites (like passing certain classes), attaining a certain level of goodness (like a high GPA and test scores), and/or doing nothing at all except letting Jesus usher you in (like knowing someone on the admissions committee).

The LDS have a somewhat more sophisticated (if I do say so myself) view of heaven. Heaven is not so much a destination as a condition. Our purpose on earth is to become the type of people who would be comfortable in heaven.

Remember, the sheer weight of joy felt by a heavenly being is terrifying. We literally could not withstand it; it would consume us. This is why we read that, in the last days, the wicked will seek to hide from the Lord and would that the rocks would cover them. The devils tremble and flee at the presence of God. Will we?

You don't earn your way to heaven, nor do you say "Lord, Lord!" and get zapped there. You walk the path step by step, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little, repenting and continually striving to better yourself and call upon God. And then, one day, God confirms that you are his.

[heidirunner]

1st!

[pam]

What about Nephi 3:7-what is your interpretation of that verse?

I'm not sure there is any other way to interpret it. It's one of the most straight forward verses when it comes to following the commandments.

When Nephi and his brothers were commanded to return to get the brass plates from Laban, they thought it an unsurmountable task. But Nephi being full of faith stated..that he will do what the Lord commanded and that a way would be prepared for him to do it.

Our Heavenly Father would not give commandments if there were not a way to achieve them.

[heidirunner]

Do you believe all of the Book of Mormon to be true? (At this point so far I do not, but I am wondering if you do. I believe parts of it are true.

[pam]

Do you believe all of the Book of Mormon to be true? (At this point so far I do not, but I am wondering if you do. I believe parts of it are true.

yes

[heidirunner]

In response to "Our Heavenly Father would not give commandments if there were not a way to achieve them:" are you keeping all of God's commandments? I know I am not. I admit to loving gossip and find it difficult to refrain from participating if it is brought up and I am around.

[Vort]

In response to "Our Heavenly Father would not give commandments if there were not a way to achieve them:" are you keeping all of God's commandments? I know I am not. I admit to loving gossip and find it difficult to refrain from participating if it is brought up and I am around.

Then perhaps instead of proclaiming the commandments impossible to follow and finding fault with those who try, you would do better to discipline yourself to quit gossiping.

[estradling75]

In response to "Our Heavenly Father would not give commandments if there were not a way to achieve them:" are you keeping all of God's commandments? I know I am not. I admit to loving gossip and find it difficult to refrain from participating if it is brought up and I am around.

He will and we are not... But much like the example of Nephi whose story you are quoting we are to keep trying no matter how many times we fail, until Heavenly Father in his own due time shows us the way.

[pam]

In response to "Our Heavenly Father would not give commandments if there were not a way to achieve them:" are you keeping all of God's commandments? I know I am not. I admit to loving gossip and find it difficult to refrain from participating if it is brought up and I am around.

I'm not a perfect being. Only Christ was perfect. Yet I can strive and work and progress towards keeping the commandments more fully and to working towards perfection.

[heidirunner]

I am not finding fault with those who try. I also try, but know that I can not completely stop sinning. Have you stopped sinning? Doctrines and Covenants 1:31-33 says "For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance..."

[heidirunner]

I appreciate this lively discussion. You all have been so nice. I am going to a running group and need to get ready. Maybe we will chat again!

[pam]

I am not finding fault with those who try. I also try, but know that I can not completely stop sinning. Have you stopped sinning? Doctrines and Covenants 1:31-33 says "For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance..."

In these scriptures it is talking about unrepentant sin.

Joseph Fielding Smith said: "No unrepentant person who remains in his sins will enter into the glories of the celestial kingdom."

No where does it say that anyone that has ever sinned will be denied this. Only those that don't repent.

[heidirunner]

Then how do you know when you have repented and what do you do to repent?

[pam]

We have taken the OP's thread so far from it's intention. Why don't you start a thread of your own for your questions as to not derail the others?

[heidirunner]

Great idea! thanks for your time :)

[Just_A_Guy]

I have a friend( that I absolutely love :) ) that is Mormon. She seems to really struggle sometimes trying to "keep up" with doing good works and not sinning. I have been studying for a few months. My question is, based on some verses from the Book of Mormon, how do you get to heaven? It seems to me that it is conditional -that you really have to stop sinning. (A friend gave me literature to read and there is all kinds of info on the internet).

Heidi, there are Mormons who don't quite get this; so I'm not surprised if it's throwing you for a loop.

Here's the deal: the Book of Mormon itself provides additional understanding of Alma 11:37:

And remember also the words which Amulek spake unto Zeezrom, in the city of Ammonihah; for he said unto him that the Lord surely should come to redeem his people, but that he should not come to redeem them in their sins, but to redeem them from their sins.

[Link]

Jesus saves us from our sins. The Book of Mormon is very clear on this:

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

[Link]

Obviously repentance involves forsaking of sin--or at least a sincere effort to do so. This idea has Biblical support--see, e.g., Proverbs 28:13; Hebrews 10:26. If you insist that Spencer W. Kimball's counsel not to repeat the sin must be interpreted hyper-legalistically and only sets us up to fail, then you must also concede that Jesus gave similarly impossible injunctions to the impotent man and the woman taken in adultery.

Then how do you know when you have repented and what do you do to repent?

You know you have repented because the Holy Spirit--accompanied, as appropriate, by the authority of the Lord's designated servants--confirms to you that you are in the right path. See, e.g., 2 Nephi 31.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Just_A_Guy

[Just_A_Guy]

I am not finding fault with those who try. I also try, but know that I can not completely stop sinning. Have you stopped sinning? Doctrines and Covenants 1:31-33 says "For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance..."

I'd suggest you read this scripture in context:

31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;

Wouldn't hurt to backtrack a bit, either. From the same section of the D&C:

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

[LittleWyvern]

Just to add to what has already been said, I've found it useful to not think of "perfection" as a point on some arbitrary line. It's not something we "accomplish" in the traditional sense: we don't get to perfection, stop, and think "oh, that was cool." To me, perfection is a direction rather than a destination. Perfection is where we're going, not where we are.

Another (somewhat related) model is the concept of relative perfection. James Talmage in Jesus the Christ explains it this way (and I'm paraphrasing): consider a college freshman and a college senior. Now, consider that this college freshman gets 100% in all his tests, all his homework, etc. He's at the top of his class. Could you say that this college freshman is perfect? Yes and no. Of course, he never makes a mistake, but consider the college senior. Even if the college senior isn't perfect, aren't the achievements of the college senior vastly superior to the college freshman? Despite the relative perfection of the freshman, the achievements of the senior are beyond him, yet these achievements are possible so far as the freshman continues his academic pursuits. This model allows us to achieve relative perfection in our sphere (i.e. our current talents, abilities, possibilities, etc.) while allowing us to be better/worse than other people. Perfection won't make us all the same.