A new kind of social political thinking

[Elphaba]

Changed,

I'm starting to think I must be misunderstanding you... Are you actually saying that people who isolate themselves are doing so because they won't repent from sin? And are you saying that people can just make a decision to change their behavior and it will change?

That is exactly what she is saying.

Elphaba

[annewandering]

It might seem a nice thought, then again.

Edited November 19, 2011 by annewandering

[sister_in_faith]

Okay, let's see what we can agree on. We are all sinners. We all sin.

However, when we talk about people who isolate themselves there are often (not always) mental health issues involved. People do not get mental illness because of sin. And just deciding to not be mentally ill does not work. It is not something you can just 'snap out of'. Those are facts.

[annewandering]

And just maybe they get tired.

Edited November 19, 2011 by annewandering

[annewandering]

Good morning.

:)

Edited November 18, 2011 by annewandering

[sister_in_faith]

What about people who are in need who are not members of church? Do they have to join, or will a church just support them? Which church would support them?

[Elphaba]

changed, I previously responded to your post before you changed it. My comments that follow are in response to those parts of your post that differed from the original.

I said none of what you insinuate here.

I did not insinuate anything--you did. I only demonstrated your insinuation that the “kind of person” who isolates him/herself, i.e., a person who refuses to repent, is nonsense.

Would you like to get in a little competition of who has it worse so I can show you we all have our problems to overcome? I can throw out some stories of abuse / physical ailment etc. etc. too.... it is a choice to rise above this stuff.

This is not about you, or me. It is about the millions of people you wrongly condemn.

As hard as it is to hear, many (not all) 'victims' are also abusers who would rather cast the blame on everyone else than take any personal responsibility for their own involvement... repentance and change is needed for everyone, it's good to not enable everyone to stay in some false delusional state…

The millions of people you accuse of being unrepentant sinners are, in reality, people in pain that has nothing, whatsoever, to do with their real or imagined sins.

what is better - the gov to help these people? or for friends/church to help?

Sometimes the government, other times friends, family and people from church. For many complicated reasons, a few which I've described below, it’s never all one or all the other.

help from friends/church is ALWAYS better than help from the gov. why? because gov help was forcefully taken/given - there's no real love in it.…

Absolute hogwash. Love is not necessary to help people who are disabled and in need. What is required is knowledge and education about the entirety of those needs. And in my own personal experience, the government was far more prepared to help me than the people who loved me. In fact, it took approximately three years for the people who loved me to make the effort to comprehend the severity, and extreme limitations, of my disability. But every time I needed help from those in the government, they knew what I needed, or knew to ask me and believe me when I explained what I needed.

That’s not to say the government was always able, or willing, to provide that help. Many times it was not. But not once were my expressed needs dismissed or discounted by these same government employees that you claim weren't qualified to help me because they didn't "love" me.

Additionally, I’ve heard my experiences repeated numerous times over the past eleven years by those who share my disability in Northern Utah. The people who loved them genuinely want to help them, but had no way of comprehending their limitations, simply because they had no personal experience with them, and thus made incorrect assumptions about what the person actually needed, while the government, particularly those specifically in jobs created to help those with disabilities, comprehended the entirety of those needs.

Finally, it was those very government employees you condemn, during those first three years of my illness, who helped me clarify what my needs were given I was in a haze of pain, exhaustion, and debilitating cognitive impairment, topped off with an overwhelming sense of terror about what was happening to me. I was completely and utterly alone with this, because the people who loved me made no effort to listen to me, and no effort to help me figure out what was going on. ETA: Despite me begging them to help me do so. While I eventually came to understand they were simply unaware of what was happening to me, at the time it only exacerbated my terror and made me feel all the more alone. So, I am offended on the behalf of these same government employees by your dismissal of their professionalism and help, ETA: and most importantly, their effectiveness, because they did not “love” me. They were, literally, my lifeline during one of the most traumatic experiences of my life.

help from friends/church has free will and genuine love attached to it, and that is what everyone needs the most..

Sometimes yes, sometimes no, for the reason I listed above.

I am not dismissing the genuine and sincere help offered by loved ones, nor am I saying their help isn’t needed. Obviously, it has its place. But, in my experience, particularly with chronic disease, once the loved one comprehends the enormity of the need, there is an initial burst of enthusiasm, if you will, that fades once the loved one realizes s/he can’t heal the person. I have no doubt other disabled persons have loved ones who make longer-term commitments, and are more understanding of the entirety of the disabled person’s needs. But that was NOT my experience whatsoever, and I know it’s not the experience of many others.

Honestly, I really don’t have a solution, in that it is extremely complicated, and there really is no perfect, or even close-to-perfect, answer. I know that the government was far more successful in meeting my needs than my family that loved me, and I know many others whose experiences mirrored mine. But I also have no doubt there are others out there whose experience was the opposite of mine.

Therefore, anyone who says the government has no place, or a minimal place, in the lives of the disabled, would leave someone like me to fend for themselves, which I can guarantee you, would have meant my death. Others who claim the family and loved ones have no place, or a minimal place, would be equally as wrong.

They both have their place, and both have, I am absolutely confident, saved numerous people’s lives, both physical and emotional. But many others have fallen through the cracks, and have died, particularly those who are completely alone. I think in a society as advanced as ours, that is unconscionable. But beyond that, I admit, I have no answers. Honestly, I don’t think they exist. The problem is too vast.

I am now done with this conversation, at least for tonight. I am overwhelmed and discouraged, and need to rest. Thanks to those who took the time to listen, and the willingness to comprehend, even if you continue to disagree.

Elphaba

Edited November 18, 2011 by Elphaba
Added information as noted in red.

[annewandering]

Elphaba, Thank you.

Edited November 19, 2011 by annewandering

[Guest]

Elphaba, Thank you. While our problems are not the same our experiences in getting the help we need has been very similar.

As well as what you have expressed there is also the truth that once the help is set up with the government it does not have to change or be evaluated every week when the problem is obviously chronic. Not that there isnt oversight because there is. Just not every week. It would be nice to think that next week everything would be great but for many of us that just isnt going to happen. It is a hard fact of life that is very hard to accept for us. Having to ask for help over and over for the same thing is ultimately degrading and very depressing. People have their own lives to worry about. It is just easier all around to not have to go over the same things all the time and have to remind people that you need help. Yes it does lack the personal touch and it also lacks the personal face to face begging.

My mom told me once that we have a big family and everyone of us have paid into the government taxes. It just makes them feel that their taxes are being used for a good cause. It was kinda an odd way to look at it but it made her happy.

I am so sure the cultural difference between Filipinos and Americans is making me just look at your situation and Elphaba's situation so drastically different that it's almost like - I wish you can just live in the Philippines and experience what I'm talking about yourself.

There's no such thing as "Begging over and over every week" for Filipinos... that's such an alien concept! People's lives there are so intertwined that the "No man is an island" is a living and breathing thing. People don't have their "own lives" to worry about... the people who's lives touch theirs and who's lives they touch are THEIR LIVES. If I remember correctly, both you and Elphaba have children, right? Do you tell your children to beg over and over every week to give them their dinner? That's the exact same thing. It's just part of the intertwining of lives in the Philippines.

But, but, but... I'm destitute, I have nothing to conribute. It's almost impossible to not have something to contribute. There's always that one kid that still hasn't figured out how to tie their shoelaces... But, but, but, I have no family. It's almost impossible to not have family. If you are in a place where you walk out the front door and see at least one person a week, you have family. And in this I salute the Catholic presence in the Philippines. They're great at this! Catholics in the America are different. American priests don't normally have dinner with their parishioners. Catholic priests and nuns are at your house a lot - they're family - even if you are not Catholic. But, but, but, I'm socio-phobic. Okay, you're going to get so sick of your family then. Because these Filipinos, man, they'll hound you until your last dying breath.

You should see these guys in action. Just last summer, we had a family reunion during the baptism of my younger son. We celebrate baptisms like weddings - we held the baptism at the beach, we had 3 days worth of partying, etc. My husband is American. We rented a beach house with 6 bedrooms - my husband's parents were there, his brother's family was there. My parents were there too and so is my brother's family. 6AM, you hear the bustle of activity in the kitchen. A lot of laughing and playing and chattering and singing and just general mayhem... it's the Filipinos preparing breakfast. The Americans came to the kitchen after breakfast was ready... They keep on asking - "Is there anything I can do to help?"... and the Filipinos just smile at them not saying anything. The Filipinos don't understand that question. In the Filipino kitchen, if you want to help, you don't have to ask... you just look at what's going on and do what needs to be done. The activity in the kitchen is really not just preparing breakfast - it's being family. It's really awesome to be part of it. My husband "gets" Filipinos (we've been married 14 years) so he was the only blonde dude working in the kitchen with the rest of us. He keeps on explaining to his parents, just pick something up to help out. And his parents are bewildered - "We don't know what you need...". My in-laws are awesome people. They're very helpful and kind and loving. But, they didn't know what to do. They're used to being asked to do something then they contribute - like in Relief Society or Elder's Quorum, etc. But that's not how Filipino families meld. Everybody just mashes together to get the job done.

But, but, but... I have pride. I can only take something from the faceless government that I don't have to beg for, that I don't have to be nice for, and I don't have to do anything for but vote... Stay in America. You won't survive in the Philippines.

Edited November 18, 2011 by anatess

[Mamas_Girl]

I can't stress it enough - people who do not have much money who think that they deserve a portion of those who do have money just by virtue of them being American - will be the death of this country.

And to think, all I wanted was my internet restored, we've been down for three days.

While I am in a lower income bracket, I appreciate those who have more. Those who have more tend to also give more and tend to take more risk. For example Sam Walton's heirs, Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, Donald Trump and others like them take daily risks running huge corporations that provide thousands of jobs, and often impact people in positive ways. They have to take risks with their money, they have the headaches of deciding what to do next --they're not just living in those luxury homes, with all the trimmings.

I think the biggest problem is when CEOs and other high up executives receive bonuses when they're running businesses that are in the red, and/or who have received government bailout money and have not paid it back. I respect people who have money, for the most part they're giving back to society whether it's running businesses, working for people running businesses (i.e. pro athletes, or entertainers), giving to charities, funding schools and colleges. Sure you're gonna find your Scrooge, but they're found in all social classes.

The American Dream is still alive, we're just in a recession (whether the government wants to actually call it that), and I believe we'll come out strong on the other side. Though some call me a hopeless romantic.

[Guest]

I think the biggest problem is when CEOs and other high up executives receive bonuses when they're running businesses that are in the red, and/or who have received government bailout money and have not paid it back.

Mama, not necessarily. I'll give you 2 separate cases:

1.) The CEO of Merril Lynch - John Thain. My husband worked for him. Merril Lynch, like most investment banks, suffered a big downturn during the mortgage crisis. In early 2008, ML hired John Thain with a sign-on bonus of $15Million to captain the ship out of these dangerous waters. They felt that the old CEO - Stan O'Neal - did not have the skills to get them out of trouble. John Thain engineered a deal to sell out to Bank of America to save ML. But, even then, ML declared an unexpected loss of $1.79 billion which almost caused BofA to walk out on the deal and sent their stock price diving. Okay, so maybe ML was just too far gone for John Thain to be of impact. Wrong. While the company was losing $1.79 billion, John Thain spent $1.22 Million of the company's money redecorating his office! $87,000 on just one area rug, $1,100 on one wastebasket!

Thain asked for $10Million bonus after the BofA merger. The board refused it. Additionally, the board asked Thain to pay back the $1.22Million office redecoration.

2.) The CEO of Winn-Dixie - Peter Lynch. I worked for him. No, not the investor... the grocery store genius. Winn-Dixie went into a financial crisis during the supermarket turmoil of the late 90's/early 2000's. By late 2003, WD has lost 85% of their stock value. In 2004, the board of directors chased down Peter Lynch - then retired after bringing Alberton's out of the brink of the abyss - to get them out of trouble when it seemed like the encroaching dollar stores and Walmart Supercenters were going to cut deep into their market share. The old CEO, Frank Lazaran was a fish out of the water. The board gave him $6.9 Million severance package. With loses under Lazaran of $1.29 Billion a quarter, $6.9 Million was well worth the investment to get a fresh face at the helm!

In comes Peter Lynch at $900,000 annual salary plus a promise of bonuses if he can turn Winn-Dixie around. Peter was the equivalent of a SWAT team in a crisis. He was not gonna get out of retirement for a measly $900,000. But, that was all the money Winn-Dixie had.

Peter Lynch walked into Winn-Dixie and balked at the giant problems plaguing the company. The grocery chain was near impossible to save. He planned to turn the job down. But, Winn-Dixie was desperate and promised him loads of bonuses if he can accomplish this insurmountable task. Winn-Dixie was so in trouble, they couldn't pay the vendors that provide them the groceries that they sell in the store! Without vendors, they have no store. Without the stores, everybody who work for Winn-Dixie and everybody who relies on their pensions from Winn-Dixie, everybody who owns stock at Winn-Dixie were going to lose it all...

Peter Lynch took the job and immediately filed for bankruptcy to stop the bleeding - it gave Winn-Dixie a few months of breathing room before they had to pay vendors and gave them the needed time to restructure. But, a lot of the people I worked with were blind to the facts and just thought Peter Lynch is so incompetent he brought us into bankruptcy.

Lynch then restructured the company from the ground up so that not even 6 months later, they were able to get enough cash to even up with the vendors again while in bankruptcy court. Winn-Dixie went into penny-stocks (the value of a stock was less than a dollar) at the beginning of bankruptcy. But, within 6 months, the stock value went up to $5 a share. After a year, the light can be seen at the end of the tunnel. Winn-Dixie board requested bankruptcy court to approve a $2.6 Million bonus for Lynch. Everybody went crazy! What an outrage, they say! To put us in bankruptcy and dare ask for $2.6M bonus!

I sat there at my cubicle listening to all my workmates whining and moaning about the bonus. I couldn't believe the abundance of ignorance of basic business management around me that they can't even realize the guy just saved their butts...

Of course, then Winn-Dixie got out of bankruptcy in less than 5 years time and is now back to being a big player in the grocery industry. Peter stepped down from the CEO spot as his specialized skill was not needed anymore. I'm sure he got more bonuses, if he didn't I would be sorely disappointed. I got a better job offer elsewhere so I left the company before then.

Edited November 18, 2011 by anatess

[Mamas_Girl]

I think the biggest problem is when CEOs and other high up executives receive bonuses when they're running businesses that are in the red, and/or who have received government bailout money and have not paid it back.

Mama, not necessarily. I'll give you 2 separate cases:

I accept your examples. But again, this just shows that those who have money take huge risks while providing jobs for hundreds of thousands of people. Again, not all of them, but a lot of them.

[HoosierGuy]

Why is this kind of big business loving thread aloud when Occupy Wall Street threads are not allowed? That is taking sides with big business.

[Dravin]

Why is this kind of big business loving thread aloud when Occupy Wall Street threads are not allowed?

I dunno, I've found this thread to be fairly quiet all things considered... maybe my speakers are muted though...

[pam]

Dang you beat me to it Dravin. Not fair.

[annewandering]

Well I have stopped discussing it. Frankly I would rather discuss OWS but we would hear exactly the same things so its pointless.

[Saldrin]

"The problem is not that people are taxed too little, the problem is that government spends too much."

Ronald Reagan

"Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so."

Ronald Reagan

[pam]

Well I have stopped discussing it. Frankly I would rather discuss OWS but we would hear exactly the same things so its pointless.

Dravin wouldn't hear the same things. His speakers are muted.

[annewandering]

Dravin wouldn't hear the same things. His speakers are muted.

lol although actually he would still hear nothing in either case with speakers muted!

[pam]

lol although actually he would still hear nothing in either case with speakers muted!

Just to explain Dravin's comment..Hoosierguy wanted to know why this thread was "aloud" when Occupy threads were not.

[Vort]

I dunno, I've found this thread to be fairly quiet all things considered... maybe my speakers are muted though...

We had a spelling bee in the fourth grade covering our assigned vocabulary words...which I literally never studied. (Just an early example of Vort's poor academic hygiene.) The word I was given was "aloud", which I dutifully spelled "A-L-L-O-W-E-D". I was humiliated to have to sit down, but I knew I had spelled it right. The teacher realized what had happened within a few seconds, explained the situation to me and the rest of the class, and let me back in the competition. (I felt relieved and vindicated, and was somewhat pleased with myself -- at least until I got the next word, which I legitimately misspelled. D'oh.)

[Just_A_Guy]

Me, I went down on the word "divide". Thought it was spelled "devide".

Oh, the trauma . . .

[Elphaba]

I agree that it takes all of the above, but would add that friends/family/church should come before gov.

Of course they should. No one said otherwise.

isolationist issues are different from disability issues

No, they're not.

Again, isolating oneself is different from choosing to be alone. Isolating oneself is a manifestation of a physical and/or mental pain issue where it is, literally, more painful to be around other people than it is to isolate oneself. So, while it is true that not everyone who is disabled isolates themselves, everyone who isolates themselves is, in some way, disabled, even if it's only minimal and not legal/official.

- if someone has isolated themselves from friends/family/church/community, and see the gov as being their only source for help - I think this is a false reality -

What is a false reality is your intimation that anyone suggested the government is, or should be, the only source for help. No one said anything close to that.

hopefully we can all agree that there is always more out there for everyone than just the gov. To say otherwise is to accuse everyone in the church/community/family of being callous/uncaring/ungiving, and that is just unfair to all of the good people who do in fact exist.

And, of course, once again, not one single person said otherwise.

Do you even read the posts you respond to?

Elphaba

Edited November 20, 2011 by Elphaba

[Elphaba]

But, but, but... I have pride.

Pride quickly becomes a luxury when you're disabled and subject to the whims of other people to provide the help you need to survive.

I can only take something from the faceless government

Actually, I well remember quite a few faces in the government--the only faces that understood and acknowledged the help I needed, some of it even before I understood it myself, for the first three years of my illness.

It's one thing to genuinely believe the government should not be providing these services. I have no problem with that. But it's a completely different, and uncalled for, thing to demean and insult the very real people, the very real faces, of those who compassionately provide those services.

that I don't have to beg for,

That made me laugh. The fact that you think no one ever begs the government for help proves you’ve never been through the disability process.

In addition, I did plenty of begging to both those in the government and those who loved me, which went hand in hand with pride becoming a luxury.

that I don't have to be nice for,

So, rude people who are disabled shouldn’t qualify for help from the government? What if the rudeness is a result of a mental disability? Or a result of a chronic severe pain disability? Or a chronic fatigue disability? Or the myriad of other disabilities that can cause someone to be not nice? How in the world would you suggest the government weed out the disabled “not nice” from the disabled “nice”? Is there some sort of “nice” scale it should adopt? If you’re a nice up to a 5 you’re ineligible, but 6+ you’re in?

and I don't have to do anything for but vote...

Once again, you demonstrate you have absolutely no experience with being disabled and the government. It does not simply hand you a check when you walk in the door. Qualifying for disability was a rigorous, and exhausting, process, and I repeat it every couple of years. It’s certainly possible I don‘t do as much as you‘d require, but based on my past eleven years experience, I‘ll continue to trust the government over someone like you when it comes to determining what I am, and am not, capable of doing.

Stay in America.

I will, thank you.

You won't survive in the Philippines.

No I wouldn’t. That’s why, despite my disability, and because I live in America, I am one of the luckiest people on the planet. If I lived most other places in the world, I would not be alive, and I am beyond grateful for the help my country has given me.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Me, I went down on the word "divide". Thought it was spelled "devide".

Oh, the trauma . . .

Mine was "picnicking." It was my sixth grade spelling bee, and it was down to another girl and me. I lost because I spelled it "picnicing." I don't think I'd ever missed a spelling word in my life until then.

Isn't it funny how, decades later, we still remember the incorrect spelling?

Elph

ETA: I just realized I misspelled my spelling word! I fixed it, but I'll probably never forget that misspelling either.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Elphaba