Did Jesus really use Wine at the last supper?

[Juan_P]

Here's an outside perspective that is unambiguous: http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4187_abstinence.pdf

Yeah, that's a good document. Holy Spirit wouldn't go near a drunk person.

With us, D&C 89 promises what are really fruits of the spirit: And shall find wisdom and great treasures of dknowledge, even hidden treasures;

apart from benefiting for generally better health and "walk and not faint" ie today drive a car and not be charged with DUI or worse cause an accident.

[volgadon]

Indeed, there was even the Passover tradition that went beyond the biblical teaching: by the time of the first century, every adult was obliged to have four glasses of wine during the Passover celebration. Jesus and his disciples did this in the Last Supper.6 The fact that the wine of the Passover was a symbol the Lord used for his blood and for the new covenant implicitly shows that our Lord’s view of wine was quite different from that of many modern Christians.

6 Technically, Jesus and the disciples had only three ritual cups of wine. The fourth cup, which represented the kingdom, was not drunk. Thus, when Jesus prayed in the garden, “If it is your will, take this cup from me” he was referring to the symbolism of the third cup--the cup of redemption by judgment. However, even though they had only three ritual cups, they may well have had more non-ritual wine, for this was allowed.

The Bible and Alcohol | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

Actually, the Passover Seder postdates Christ by at least 40 years. It and the Last Supper are both reinterpretations of the biblical Passover. The prevailing talmudic view is that all four of the cups refer to redemption, symbolising the 4 terms used for redemption in Exodus 6:6-7. There is another view that these four cups represent the 4 cups of tribulation which God will give the gentiles in the future.

This usage is far closer to the imagery used in the gospels.

Cups are used as a symbol for unpleasentries and suffering.

[Dravin]

I think the whole thing is a reach from a post-WOW context.

Actually the sources I bumped into weren't LDS, though they were arguing against alcohol, so there is obviously a motive for interpretation.

To project our current law upon the acts of Christ or Smith seems to be a mountain of a retrofit. Is there something wrong with either of them actually drinking alcohol?

I find it doubtful myself that Christ never drank anything fermented. That said it's an assumption based upon the word wine and my limited understanding of historical context. I don't know the Hebrew and I don't know it's proper translation, though I'm not inclined to trust what amounts (authority wise) to random Geocities sites. As far as Joseph Smith meaning by new or pure wasn't created by yourself but rather fresh is a little more plausible but I'd want to see something credible for it, such as a 19th Century dictionary or publications presenting the use of the term within the context people are suggesting.

I can't help but think you're accusing me of projecting and I'm doing nothing of the sort. I was pointing out where Jaun_P was getting his terms and noted that there are people claiming meanings and interpretations in support of him but nothing scholarly. Maybe noting there was nothing scholarly wasn't clear enough, there is nothing scholarly or credible. Noting the existence of an alternative viewpoint is not espousal of that viewpoint.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Dravin

[pam]

Well, I guess if you go by the scriptures, than our Word of Wisdom also permits beer drinking as well.

D&C 89:17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for th horse, and rye for the fowls and swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain."

Barley is not used for drinks such as beer only. There are a lot of health benefits to barley water and other mild drinks made from barley.

And no, this is not an endorsement nor am I saying that it's then okay to drink beer.

[prisonchaplain]

Some doctrine comes from unusual sources--such as this great German polka:

In heaven there is no beer.

That's why we drink it here (Right Here!)

When we're gone from here,

all our friends will be drinking all our beer!

Forget about the drinking it here stuff...just focus on the reality of a boozeless heaven.

[annewandering]

lol funny! prisonchaplain!

[ReynaRosa]

I would say that it's perfectly clear when it is written that John the Baptist never drank alcohol...Jesus did have wine...just like he had the power to turn water into wine...i'm sure he enjoyed the fruits of his labor. However choosing not to drink alcohol/wine is a personal matter as it is written not to get drunk.

[Snow]

Since mormons don´t drink alcohol, and use water instead of wine at the sacrament - i find it interesting that nowhere in any of the gospels does it explicitly say that jesus and the discipes drank wine at the last supper! I know this is not why mormons dont use wine, but still a strange coincidence that kinda supports the LDS tradition/interpretation of sacrament.

Huh? In what way does it support the LDS tradition?

[Obolus]

It says so in the text. Its obvious:

To whom? Since there is no other source specifying that "pure wine" = "non-alcoholic" besides yourself, I'm inclined to disagree. Where did you even come up with the idea? Did you read it and come to the conclusion or is there some other source?

That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

So it is good to use wine for the sacrament. Just as good as water, according to the D&C.

[Obolus]

I can't help but think you're accusing me of projecting and I'm doing nothing of the sort.

I was referring to JuanP.

[Dravin]

I was referring to JuanP.

Okay, you quoted me and then made your comment, thus the confusion.

[cwald]

That's correct. Pure beer would be ok but industry today only sells beer with alcohol so the brethren added beer to the banned substances WoW speaks of around 1920's odd. Before that several brethren argued that beer was OK. (I'm going by memory here but the history is freely available) ...

It doesn't say anything like that. It says that barley is good for making mild drinks. At the time of the revelation most people would understand that to mean that beer was okay. And like you stated, many many apostles argue that beer was okay all way up through the temperance movement and until prohibition, when Pres. Grant decided it wasn't, and enforced it as a temple recommend requirement.

Edited November 22, 2011 by cwald

[Windseeker]

Barley is not used for drinks such as beer only. There are a lot of health benefits to barley water and other mild drinks made from barley.

And no, this is not an endorsement nor am I saying that it's then okay to drink beer.

On my mission in Japan we drank Mugi Cha (Roasted barley tea) and whenever people offered us Green Tea we requested Mugi Cha instead. It's basically just roasted barely steeped in water. It's healthy and delicious both hot and cold.

Mugi Cha (Barley Tea) For (My) Health

[Juan_P]

So it is good to use wine for the sacrament. Just as good as water, according to the D&C.

But it then qualyfies it as 'pure wine' of the grape vine AND of your own making..never mentions water, that's a latter unwritten change.., but we've been over this now a few times and it seems you don't want to read what the scripture actually says, so it getting to be pointless now.

[cwald]

But it then qualyfies it as 'pure wine' of the grape vine AND of your own making..never mentions water, that's a latter unwritten change.., but we've been over this now a few times and it seems you don't want to read what the scripture actually says, so it getting to be pointless now.

Or perhaps he just doesn't want to agree with your INTERPRETATION of what the scriptures say?

[Juan_P]

It doesn't say anything like that. It says that barley is good for making mild drinks. At the time of the revelation most people would understand that to mean that beer was okay. And like you stated, many many apostles argue that beer was okay all way up through the temperance movement and until prohibition, when Pres. Grant decided it wasn't, and enforced it as a temple recommend requirement.

"It says that barley is good for making mild drinks" yeah...pure beer! we are saying the same with different words.

"At the time of the revelation most people would understand that to mean that beer was okay" yes, what I said too, until the brethren realized the alcohol was the problem so they outlawed it, this was before Grants time by the way. What pres Grant did was add the basics of the WoW (don't drink alcohol, smoke, tea & coffee) to the Temple questions but left out most of the WoW like fruits in their seasons or meat sparingly etc that part is still up to the individual to do.

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

I don't think this would have been a comment if we were talking about grape juice

Where does this notion of "pure wine" come from? I tried to look it up but found nothing but companies that are actual wine sellers (the alcoholic kind). Any sources?

This is where an understanding of the "ancient" traditions is a good thing.

The word "Wine" as it is translated actually fits for two different drinks that where used in Christ's time. One fits very close to the current use of wine, as being an alcoholic beverage that is made from fruit (usually grapes). The second and not commonly in use today is the juice made from grapes, but it is made in the same manor as wine without the fermintation process, and was refered to as "Pure wine".

I hope this helps clear things up, of course it now adds fuel to the debate, which was used... lol

[Obolus]

The word "Wine" as it is translated actually fits for two different drinks that where used in Christ's time. One fits very close to the current use of wine, as being an alcoholic beverage that is made from fruit (usually grapes). The second and not commonly in use today is the juice made from grapes, but it is made in the same manor as wine without the fermintation process, and was refered to as "Pure wine".

I hope this helps clear things up

It doesn't, but I am relieved to see that there is a second person making this claim that is not JuanP because the guy refuses to cite a source other than his own interpretation of the verse. I now have hope that there is in fact an existing reference. Perhaps you could provide it?

[Juan_P]

This is where an understanding of the "ancient" traditions is a good thing.

The word "Wine" as it is translated actually fits for two different drinks that where used in Christ's time. One fits very close to the current use of wine, as being an alcoholic beverage that is made from fruit (usually grapes). The second and not commonly in use today is the juice made from grapes, but it is made in the same manor as wine without the fermintation process, and was refered to as "Pure wine".

I hope this helps clear things up, of course it now adds fuel to the debate, which was used... lol

Yeah, i thought this was obvious. Fermentation is a natural process too in the rotting of fruit so can't be very pure per sé

Or maybe 'pure wine' was actually moonshine in Missouri????

[Juan_P]

It doesn't, but I am relieved to see that there is a second person making this claim that is not JuanP because the guy refuses to cite a source other than his own interpretation of the verse. I now have hope that there is in fact an existing reference. Perhaps you could provide it?

Why in the world would you want a source if you have my word??

aint nothin' more powerful than words!!!

Actually all you need to do is read the section, from ver 1 to at least 10 to clear things up. Can't be clearer than that.....

[Obolus]

Why in the world would you want a source if you have my word?

Because I think your interpretation is erroneous. I think that when you take "pure wine" to mean "alcohol free" you are necessarily projecting a meaning that you (or someone else) made up. I also question anyone who doesn't speak for the church, as should we all.

Wine is alcoholic by definition. Hence, "wine of the grape" is simply the traditional meaning. To add the adjective "pure" seems to be a reference to the fact that wine made by the Saints would be of known quality, whereas that made by their enemies might be laced with something undesirable.

I really just want to see some examples of the kind of wine you speak of. Either described by a wine maker, cited in some sort of credible source, or anything from a GA. Searching_For_The_Truth mentioned some association with an ancient tradition of wine making. Ok: let's have a look at it. If you don't have any other source, then I have no reason to believe that it is a true interpretation. If you do have something other than your personal interpretation, I want to examine it.

This is not about your word. It is about the interpretation of God's word, so two or three credible witnesses must be established.

[volgadon]

Tirosh, the unfermented wine, still had alcohol, a lower percentage, but alcohol nonetheless.

[Juan_P]

Because I think your interpretation is erroneous. I think that when......

It was sarcasm....joke.....but you don't get that either...

[Obolus]

You're right. I don't get sarcasm.

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

It doesn't, but I am relieved to see that there is a second person making this claim that is not JuanP because the guy refuses to cite a source other than his own interpretation of the verse. I now have hope that there is in fact an existing reference. Perhaps you could provide it?

It has been a long time since I read this (college was so long ago now), but I will see what I can find to cite a resource for this information. I should have some time over this holiday to look, but no promises.