Evidence Of Mormonism

[karrie91]

because of logic...

One principle that is strong in the LDS church, shows it to be true. Eternal Marriage...

No offense to any other religion....but they ask "do you have unto hold till death do you part". Wow what a temporary commitment.

now we know that "as it is said on earth so shall it be in heaven".

SO logic dictates that we have found the love of our lifes, our soul mate to have forever. Then to be ripped apart never to be together again, who knows when if you follow "till death to you part". Wow God must really hate us to break our hearts like that.....

But no the LDS have been given further revelation that means that soul mate can be yours for all eternity so if they do pass, you will have the opporturnity to be together.

So if all religion is based of Gods love, where do you think that love is really abundant.

You want another priniciple....

Baptism...(I love this passage)

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.

A friend of mine was Catholic, and was told when her little boy died at two from sickness and she had not had him baptized, he was stuck between heaven and hell in limbo by her priest. That in that respect he was nowhere, had no peace and no comfort. (This ripped her family apart) He refused to conduct the service and for the child to be buried on consecrated ground. (maybe he was harsh) Connor was cremated because of this priest and Claire left the Catholic church. I gave her the above pasage and it testified to her of the love of heavenly father.

Joshua you may see this as feelings and thought, but to me this is solomn proof that this chuch is real, that this is a church governed by Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in these latter days.

So what more can you ask but for the hearts cry of truth becuase that is all any religion is to any person. Their heart crying to the soul that this is where they belong.

So I understand your need to understand, or pick us apart but look within yourself and in you study read scriptures and try to really read them. Because the passage above spoke to me of truth, maybe not to everyone but to me it did.

Now before you critise and condemn anymore, please have in mind that the majority of people just want happiness and a sense of self and even if you dont believe and the LDS church gives it to so many, my question to you is, who are you to try and take it away or pick it apart? All your posts have been centered on causing doubt on mormonism, if we believe it, its ok, if you dont want to, thats ok too! Just please allow us our choice as we allow you yours!

[Traveler]

Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall know them".

I would point to some fruits such as:

1. Our welfare program

2. Fast offerings

3. Young men (and women) that pay for their own missions.

4. Relief Society

5. Organizations that does not depend on pagan education rituals for it structural placements.

6. Every member given callings of service.

7. Home teaching

8. Visiting teaching

9. Young men service projects

10. Young women service projects.

11. Temple service (sacrifice).

12. Tithing service

13. Soberness (lack of public drunkenness).

14. Willingness to be obedient to G-d's commands through his servants.

15. Oneness in Sunday worship.

16. Oneness in doctrine. (anywhere you go in the world you will find LDS Sunday worship of one heart and one mind).

17. Fasting at least once a month

18. Family home evenings (in general the focus on the family - see proclamation to the world).

19. Individual and Family prayer.

20. Individual and Family scripture study.

21. Vast world missionary effort.

22. World relief programs.

23. Real and effective self help programs

24. Love and Care for every member - even those that do not attend on Sunday or pay offerings.

24. Social Services (to encourage adoption over abortion)

To be honest I have not found a religious organization with near the vast variety of good fruits. Some, like the Salvation Army have service programs for certain sectors but none with the vastness and variety of good fruits.

The Traveler

[mdb]

Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall know them".

I would point to some fruits such as:

1. Our welfare program

2. Fast offerings

3. Young men (and women) that pay for their own missions.

4. Relief Society

5. Organizations that does not depend on pagan education rituals for it structural placements.

6. Every member given callings of service.

7. Home teaching

8. Visiting teaching

9. Young men service projects

10. Young women service projects.

11. Temple service (sacrifice).

12. Tithing service

13. Soberness (lack of public drunkenness).

14. Willingness to be obedient to G-d's commands through his servants.

15. Oneness in Sunday worship.

16. Oneness in doctrine. (anywhere you go in the world you will find LDS Sunday worship of one heart and one mind).

17. Fasting at least once a month

18. Family home evenings (in general the focus on the family - see proclamation to the world).

19. Individual and Family prayer.

20. Individual and Family scripture study.

21. Vast world missionary effort.

22. World relief programs.

23. Real and effective self help programs

24. Love and Care for every member - even those that do not attend on Sunday or pay offerings.

24. Social Services (to encourage adoption over abortion)

To be honest I have not found a religious organization with near the vast variety of good fruits. Some, like the Salvation Army have service programs for certain sectors but none with the vastness and variety of good fruits.

The Traveler

That's a lot of programs (not all of them are). Programs are not fruit. The fruits of the Spirit are these: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. (Gal 5:22)

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing. (1 Cor 13:3)

You can have all the things you listed and still lack fruit and love. For example, you can fast and still strike with the fist of wickedness (read Isaiah 58), or like Robinhood you can steal from the rich to feed the poor. There are a lot of religions that do many of the same things you mentioned and even many non-religious pagans do these things. It does not prove they have truth. Equally, the LDS organization's practicing these things does not prove they are following the truth. A Mormon may be genuine in their faith and do many good works, but so do many non-Mormons.

I do agree that the Scriptures say, "by their fruits you will know them." (Matt 7:20)

[moptopfan50]

Unless I am blind (which I could be), I did not see listed anywhere, let alone as #1, revelation. Is revelation not the rock upon which the church is built?

Matthew 16:13-18 13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Seems in the opinion of this writer, that the evidence of Mormonism, and evidence of the true church, should have revelation as # 1.

I also offer miracles. See Mormon 9:10-11,15,17-20; and Moroni 7:27,29, 35, 37.

Any others omitted, please feel free to add.

moptopfan50

[Princess3dward]

That's a lot of programs (not all of them are). Programs are not fruit. The fruits of the Spirit are these: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. (Gal 5:22)

Umm.. I am just curious... on the list that was given, what orginizations do not provide love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control?

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

That's a lot of programs (not all of them are). Programs are not fruit. The fruits of the Spirit are these: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. (Gal 5:22)

Umm.. I am just curious... on the list that was given, what orginizations do not provide love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control?

Good question - may I ask another question associated with this? When the Christian organizations of history took Christian thought to Northern Europe why did they murder (mass murder on a large scale) more men women and children than the Black Plauge?

When Christian organizations came to the America and there were 40,000,000 native americans - why did they lovingly reduce them to less than 4,000,000 today and why did the completly exterminate the peaceful and open Lakaya (that would not convert to Christianity) - Every man woman and child.

Whay did loving and kind Christian organizations not pass a law (until 1649) to end the murder of people of other religions that did not agree with the current Christian organization in power. And why did that law not include any religion that was not Trinitarian?

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Good questions Traveler. "Judge a religion by it's founder-not the atrocities of it's followers" is something someone once said. Jesus, being the founder is what Christianity should be about, not what they have done in His name. Most, if not all, religions (from what I've studied) have enormous atrocities in the name of their religion.

Dr. T

[mdb]

As I said,

You can have all the things you listed and still lack fruit and love. For example, you can fast and still strike with the fist of wickedness (read Isaiah 58), or like Robinhood you can steal from the rich to feed the poor.

When you say "Christian organizations", does that include the LDS? You do say that you are "Christian" don't you?

The wrong actions of men do not nullify the word of God, but their actions prove themselves to be false (may God be true and every man a liar). Men make mistakes and many will on that final day say, "Lord, Lord" and He will reply, "I never knew you." The actions were not the actions of those who follow Christ.

We should follow Christ Jesus, not men because men are sinful. We should follow Christ, not the LDS or some other organization. Those who love Him are His children, not all those who go to church on a Sunday morning or even those who profess to be Christian, but deny their own faith in Him by their actions.

The Jews are God's chosen people. Why did the Pharisees, teachers of the law and the Jewish people kill the Prince of Peace, giving Him over to the Gentiles to be put to death? Why did their fathers kill the prophets? I do not use this as an arguement to justify the actions of men who profess to be under grace and not the law. Jesus said we should live in peace with all men and should turn the other cheek to those who strike.

Let's remember that Mormon history is not without stain. What of Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows (1857) where 120 men, women and children were murdered? What of the "Blood Atonement" doctrine once taught of Brigham Young (references below)?

Brigham Young's blood atonement sermon of 1856:

Joseph Smith, (1805-1844), the founder of the original Mormon church, was assassinated. Two years later Brigham Young (1801-1877 CE) became the second prophet of the church and led about 19,000 Mormons to Salt Lake City, UT. A minority of members, totaling about 1,000 stayed behind and eventually formed the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, now called the Community of Christ.

On 1856-MAR-16, Young delivered an instruction to the bishops. Referring to a hypothetical man who violated the solemn covenants he had made in the Temple, young said:

"You say, 'That man ought to die for transgressing the law of God.' Let me suppose a case. Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them. You would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands..."

"There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants." ["Brigham Young Blood Atonement Sermon," Journal of Discourses, Volume 3, Pages 243 to 249]

Young indicates that Jesus' death on the cross can never wipe out an individual's serious personal sin. The sinner's own blood must be shed to atone for the sin. The sinner must be murdered and his or her blood spilled on the ground.

Brigham Young's blood atonement sermon of 1867:

On 1867-FEB-08, Young delivered a second important discourse in the Tabernacle at Salt Lake City on the topic of "blood atonement" He confirmed that concept that God cannot forgive serious sins unless the sinner is killed and his blood mixes with the earth. He also expressed confidence that the end of the world as he knew it would occur in his immediate future. He was wrong about at least the second belief.

Young said in part:

"....the time will come, and is now nigh at hand, when those who profess our faith, if they are guilty of what some of this people are guilty of, will find the axe laid at the root of the tree, and they will be hewn down. What has been must be again, for the Lord is coming to restore all things....it is one of the laws of that kingdom where our Father dwells, that if a man was found guilty of adultery, he must have his blood shed, and that is near at hand. But now I say, in the name of the Lord, that if this people will sin no more, but faithfully live their religion, their sins will be forgiven them without taking life...."

Referring to the possibility of any believer in the congregation committing a serious sin, Young continued:

"...suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin, and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, 'shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods' ?"

All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant. He never told a man or woman to love their enemies in their wickedness, never. He never intended any such thing.... Jesus Christ never meant that we should love a wicked man in his wickedness...."

"I could refer you to plenty of instances where men, have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance (in the last resurrection there will be) if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the devil, until our elder brother Jesus Christ raises them up—conquers death, hell, and the grave. I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them...."

"This is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it. Any of you who understand the principles of eternity, if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind." ["Brigham Young 'Blood Atonement' Sermon," Journal of Discourses, Volume 4, Pages 215 to 221]

Thus, it would be an act of love to murder anyone who you felt had committed a serious sin which is said that God could not forgive in any other way than to have the person die and his or her blood spilled. How is that biblical or loving? Do you believe this is a doctrine the Lord Jesus would approve?

[Ray]

...Thus, it would be an act of love to murder anyone who you felt had committed a serious sin which is said that God could not forgive in any other way than to have the person die and his or her blood spilled. How is that biblical or loving? Do you believe this is a doctrine the Lord Jesus would approve?

It would be an act of love for people to execute someone who has murdered another person because those who execute someone who is guilty of murdering another person are doing justice for the person who was murdered, mdb.

And how is that Biblical, you ask???

Do you need me to quote some scriptures in the Bible showing how God commanded His people to execute those who were among His people who had murdered another person, or people?

Don't you know those commands to execute those murderers was approved by our Lord Himself???

Where is your sense of justice, mdb???

Do you think our Lord just automatically forgives people who murder and then ask for His forgiveness?

FYI, our Lord (Jehovah) commanded His people to execute those among His people who murdered other people, and since He commanded that at one time in the past, He will still command that in the future.

Do you imagine a God that changes?

Do you think God has changed the way God was?

You err if you think God does not deal justly.

God's mercy does not rob God's justice.

[JoshuaFKon]

B)

Do you think our Lord just automatically forgives people who murder and then ask for His forgiveness?

I consider that to be the essence of Christianity. (of course they would have to repent...meaning turn from their sin)

FYI, our Lord (Jehovah) commanded His people to execute those among His people who murdered other people, and since He commanded that at one time in the past, He will still command that in the future.

He also commanded you to kill goats, do no work on the Sabbath, and many other things I'm sure you do not to...why? did God change?

You err if you think God does not deal justly.

God's mercy does not rob God's justice.

"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, Do not commit adultery, also said, Do not murder. Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law."

If you believe someone should die (according to the Bible) for murder or adultery, then they would also deserve to die for doing work on the Sabbath...

Josh

[Princess3dward]

He also commanded you to kill goats, do no work on the Sabbath, and many other things I'm sure you do not to...why? did God change?

I was taught that I was not to work on a sunday... I can go to friends houses either, or buy things...

That commandment is still important.. and (honest question), He commanded us to kill goats AFTER Jesus' sacrafice?

I believe no one should kill anyone!

[JoshuaFKon]

I was taught that I was not to work on a sunday... I can go to friends houses either, or buy things...

"Now it happened that He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; and as they went His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain. 24 And the Pharisees said to Him, “Look, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

25 But He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him: 26 how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?”

27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come... Colossians 2:16-17"

(honest question), He commanded us to kill goats AFTER Jesus' sacrafice?

No, God didn't command us to kill goats after Jesus's sacrafice, why? because it covered our sins...and not "most" of our sins..."all" of our sins.

I believe no one should kill anyone!

What about in self-defense? or in defense of your family?

Josh B)

[Princess3dward]

I believe no one should kill anyone!

What about in self-defense? or in defense of your family?

Josh B)

You don't have to kill.

You can wound, by taking out a limb and running.

"Now it happened that He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; and as they went His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain. 24 And the Pharisees said to Him, “Look, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

25 But He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him: 26 how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?”

27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."

What I got out of that was don't judge people for what they choose to do on the sabbeth.. and I don't.

[Ray]

Ray: Do you think our Lord just automatically forgives people who murder and then ask for His forgiveness?

Josh: I consider that to be the essence of Christianity. (of course they would have to repent...meaning turn from their sin)

Heh, okay, let me put this in other words for you, Josh.

The essence of Christianity is Christ, and Christ is none other than Jesus, and Jesus is the one who was known as Jehovah, and Jehovah is the one who killed murderers... or the one who commanded His people to kill those of His people who murdered.

Are you getting the gist of my idea, now?

You can't reasonably say the death penalty is un-Christian, because Christ commanded the death penalty.

Ray: FYI, our Lord (Jehovah) commanded His people to execute those among His people who murdered other people, and since He commanded that at one time in the past, He will still command that in the future.

Josh: He also commanded you to kill goats, do no work on the Sabbath, and many other things I'm sure you do not to...why? did God change?

No. He simply fulfilled His law on what to sacrifice.

And btw, He could have commanded His people to kill a goat when one or some of His people murdered other people, but He didn't do that, did He? And what did He say they should do when someone murdered? Do you need me to quote the Bible to you?

Ray: You err if you think God does not deal justly. God's mercy does not rob God's justice.

Josh: ... If you believe someone should die (according to the Bible) for murder or adultery, then they would also deserve to die for doing work on the Sabbath...

Josh

Hey, yeah. I hadn't thought of that. Thanks, Josh. :)

And btw, death doesn't have to be physical death.

We should obey or we will die (be divided or separated from) God's presence.

[JoshuaFKon]

Heh, okay, let me put this in other words for you, Josh.

The essence of Christianity is Christ, and Christ is none other than Jesus, and Jesus is the one who was known as Jehovah, and Jehovah is the one who killed murderers... or the one who commanded His people to kill those of His people who murdered.

Are you getting the gist of my idea, now?

You can't reasonably say the death penalty is un-Christian, because Christ commanded the death penalty.

I dissagree with you that Jesus is Jehovah, but that's besides the point.

I agree with the death penalty. I believe it deters crime, and so prevents more death.'

I disagree however, that if you murder someone you will not be forgiven...That Jesus's blood would not cover that.

"There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants." ["Brigham Young Blood Atonement Sermon," Journal of Discourses, Volume 3, Pages 243 to 249]

Josh B)

[Dr T]

Josh,

You said,

I agree with the death penalty. I believe it deters crime, and so prevents more death.

I disagree with that. The death penalty is not a deterrent. Maybe for you while sitting behind your computer. In the heat of passion/anger, I highly doubt you would stop and think, "Now if I pull this trigger, I might be put to death through the process of the legal system."

[JoshuaFKon]

I disagree with that. The death penalty is not a deterrent. Maybe for you while sitting behind your computer. In the heat of passion/anger, I highly doubt you would stop and think, "Now if I pull this trigger, I might be put to death through the process of the legal system."

Prehaps, its a debatable point.

Josh B)

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

Again...Josh, I think that prooving ones faith cannot be done

Allow me to respectfully disagree...I believe faith can, and should be proved.

Josh B)

Then it wouldn't be faith - now would it.

Agreed.

No supernatural claim of Mormonism or any other religion has ever been proved, nor, I suspect, will it ever, at least until the end.

Joshua claims that faith can be proved but you notice how he has ZERO proof of his own faith. Because there is NONE, and that's why it is called FAITH.

[Dr T]

Hello Snow/all,

I'm wondering if faith and evidence are mutually exclusive. I have read Kierkegaard and understand his position about the more we fight for reason about God, the more we create obstacles for faith. If I remember correctly he called this the absolute (ultimate?) paradox. He believed that faith and reason cannot be harmonized. The bible tells the reader to reason from the scriptures and to give a reason for the faith this is in you. All definitions below were from here

faith

5 entries found for faith.

To select an entry, click on it.

faith[1,noun]faith[2,transitive verb]article of faithfaith healinggood faith

Main Entry: 1faith

Pronunciation: 'fAth

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/

Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions

2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

synonym see BELIEF

- on faith : without question <took everything he said on faith>

Faith can also be "belief" or "trust."

reason

4 entries found for reason.

To select an entry, click on it.

reason[1,noun]reason[2,verb]age of reasonrhyme or reason

Main Entry: 1rea·son

Pronunciation: 'rE-z&n

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English resoun, from Anglo-French raisun, from Latin ration-, ratio reason, computation, from reri to calculate, think; probably akin to Gothic rathjo account, explanation

1 a : a statement offered in explanation or justification <gave reasons that were quite satisfactory> b : a rational ground or motive <a good reason to act soon> c : a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense; especially : something (as a principle or law) that supports a conclusion or explains a fact <the reasons behind her client's action> d : the thing that makes some fact intelligible : CAUSE <the reason for earthquakes> <the real reason why he wanted me to stay -- Graham Greene>

2 a (1) : the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways : INTELLIGENCE (2) : proper exercise of the mind (3) : SANITY b : the sum of the intellectual powers

3 archaic : treatment that affords satisfaction

- in reason : RIGHTLY, JUSTIFIABLY

- within reason : within reasonable limits

- with reason : with good cause

I think all belief has to go so far and then we take a leap. I think the issue is about plausibility and the ability to base belief on something that is persuasive and appearing worthy of belief. These have to be based on something. Even this last statement has to be based on something/some kind of faith. There has to be a reason for this faith that faith has to have reason and therefore it seems that they are not exclusive but actually interrelated.

Dr. T

[Snow]

Hello Snow/all,

I'm wondering if faith and evidence are mutually exclusive. I have read Kierkegaard and understand his position about the more we fight for reason about God, the more we create obstacles for faith. If I remember correctly he called this the absolute (ultimate?) paradox. He believed that faith and reason cannot be harmonized. The bible tells the reader to reason from the scriptures and to give a reason for the faith this is in you. All definitions below were from here

faith

5 entries found for faith.

To select an entry, click on it.

faith[1,noun]faith[2,transitive verb]article of faithfaith healinggood faith

Main Entry: 1faith

Pronunciation: 'fAth

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/

Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions

2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

synonym see BELIEF

- on faith : without question <took everything he said on faith>

Faith can also be "belief" or "trust."

reason

4 entries found for reason.

To select an entry, click on it.

reason[1,noun]reason[2,verb]age of reasonrhyme or reason

Main Entry: 1rea·son

Pronunciation: 'rE-z&n

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English resoun, from Anglo-French raisun, from Latin ration-, ratio reason, computation, from reri to calculate, think; probably akin to Gothic rathjo account, explanation

1 a : a statement offered in explanation or justification <gave reasons that were quite satisfactory> b : a rational ground or motive <a good reason to act soon> c : a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense; especially : something (as a principle or law) that supports a conclusion or explains a fact <the reasons behind her client's action> d : the thing that makes some fact intelligible : CAUSE <the reason for earthquakes> <the real reason why he wanted me to stay -- Graham Greene>

2 a (1) : the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways : INTELLIGENCE (2) : proper exercise of the mind (3) : SANITY b : the sum of the intellectual powers

3 archaic : treatment that affords satisfaction

- in reason : RIGHTLY, JUSTIFIABLY

- within reason : within reasonable limits

- with reason : with good cause

I think all belief has to go so far and then we take a leap. I think the issue is about plausibility and the ability to base belief on something that is persuasive and appearing worthy of belief. These have to be based on something. Even this last statement has to be based on something/some kind of faith. There has to be a reason for this faith that faith has to have reason and therefore it seems that they are not exclusive but actually interrelated.

Dr. T

You have a very good point and I agree. However, I would draw a distinction between evidences and proof. The Church is full of evidences that your claims are as we believe them to be but there is no absolute proof.

[Dr T]

That's a fair conclusion (in my mind anyway). Thanks for your thoughts,

Dr. T

[mdb]

I dissagree with you that Jesus is Jehovah, but that's besides the point.

I don't mean to meander from the topic, but this really needs to be cleared up. There are so many passages that refer to Jesus being Jehovah (yhwh). What did Jesus mean when He claimed to be the I AM (Jn 8:24,28,58; 18:6,8; Ex 3:14)? Who's glory did Isaiah see - the glory in Isaiah is Yhwh's (Isaiah 6:1-5; Jn 12:41)?

Other references to Jehovah that are given to Jesus Christ:

everlasting light – Isaiah 60:19,20; Rev 21:22,23

glory, the – Isaiah 6:1-5; 42:8; 48:11; Jn 12:41

hair like pure wool (Ancient of days) – Dan 7:9; Rev 1:14

kingdom/ dominion – Dan 4:2,3,34; 6:26; 7:13,14

voice in the wilderness – Isaiah 40:3; Mk 1:2-4

voice like rushing waters – Ezek 43:2; Rev 1:15

This is a VERY small sampling. The doctrine that Jesus is yhwh is one that the LDS has correct.

JoshuaK, what religious background are you from? Your belief of Jesus not being Jehovah makes me wonder if you are a JW. Forgive me if you are not. I have not read enough of your posts to determine this. Your statement here about Jesus has struck my curiosity.

[Ray]

Ray:

...You can't reasonably say the death penalty is un-Christian, because Christ commanded the death penalty.

I disagree with you that Jesus is Jehovah, but that's besides the point.

Okay, I will not make try to make a point regarding whether or not Jesus is Jehovah, and instead I will say that Jesus and Jehovah are "one"... meaning that what one does the other one does or would do if given that situation... so if Jehovah said that there must be a death penalty then Jesus would also say that.

I agree with the death penalty. I believe it deters crime, and so prevents more death.'

That's good. I'm glad we agree on that point. It does deter crime, the crime of murder, when someone who murders is executed, because it deters that murderer from murdering again by eliminating that murderer from this planet. And if anyone cares enough to learn from that example, by seeing what will happen if they murder, then it also deters other murders from happening... unless some numbskulls have to learn for themselves to see that murderers are in fact executed.

I disagree however, that if you murder someone you will not be forgiven...That Jesus's blood would not cover that.

Okay, you disagree.

I personally know for a fact that if or when someone intentionally murders another person... with murder defined as the killing of an innocent person... with an innocent person defined as someone who is totally innocent of any crime for which there would be a "good" reason to kill him/her... (such as self defense, or the defense of another innocent person or people, or to preserve a righteous way of life instead of allowing a murderer to rule (a righteous war), etc...) then, in that situation, our Lord will not wipe the sin of murder from a person's conscience and not hold them accountable for that act EVEN IF the person who murders someone else feels really sorry and won't ever do it again.

But you can believe what you want to believe, and I am living my life to defend that right.

"There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants." ["Brigham Young Blood Atonement Sermon," Journal of Discourses, Volume 3, Pages 243 to 249]

Every word of that is true. But again, you can believe what you want to.

[pushka]

Ray, do you get your belief in Jesus' attitude to murderers, ie. that he would not 'wipe the sin of murder from a person's conscience and not hold them accountable for that act EVEN IF the person who murders someone else feels really sorry and won't ever do it again.' from what you've read in the Bible or from other LDS scripture? Just curious to know, please. :)

[Ray]

Ray, do you get your belief in Jesus' attitude to murderers, ie. that he would not 'wipe the sin of murder from a person's conscience and not hold them accountable for that act EVEN IF the person who murders someone else feels really sorry and won't ever do it again.' from what you've read in the Bible or from other LDS scripture? Just curious to know, please. :)

It's not "or" pushka, it's "and".

I get my belief in .... from the Bible, and other (LDS) scripture, and God.

Have I now satisfied your curiousity???