Hey mormonmusic

[Guest]

Calling you out!

I've gone to the marriagebuilders site and poked around. A lot of it, I like. I know it's helped a lot of people.

I also see that I'm not the only one who takes issue with physical attractiveness being an emotional need. You bring it up a lot, so I'm giving you the opportunity to convince me, because I'm not buying what he's selling.

[ryanh]

Dr Harley is by no means the only one to have identified attractiveness as a significant emotional need of some people.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Calling you out!

I've gone to the marriagebuilders site and poked around. A lot of it, I like. I know it's helped a lot of people.

I also see that I'm not the only one who takes issue with physical attractiveness being an emotional need. You bring it up a lot, so I'm giving you the opportunity to convince me, because I'm not buying what he's selling.

I don't mind answering this from personal experience, but I'm not really too interested in defending his theory or debating whether this is a valid need in certain marriages.

Here goes....my personal perspective.

Some people feel love for their spouse just by looking at them -- because they are attractive. I have that need. One reason my marriage has survived is that in spite of the challenges I've shared here, I have found my wife very attractive over the years. I just look at her sometimes and it chases the blues away or "deposits" love into the emotional bank account.

I feel a certain admiration for how my wife looks about the same as she did when I married her twenty years ago. I complement her a lot and that meets her need for Admiration. I'm also attracted to her to give hugs and affection, which also helps our marriage.

If I have ever thought of getting out of the marriage, the thought of not having her attractive self in my life bothers me, as part of the equation, and helps me stay.

On the flip side, I was serious with an LDS woman in my twenties as a single person. She had been grossly obese and had lost weight, but was still very chubby. We got along famously, however, and she met some other needs I had, so we got along very well for several years. But I couldn't bring myself to marry her. The weight was somehow a big issue for me, plus a couple other things.

So, I broke it off...and then, didn't seem to regret it either.

At the time, when I expressed this concern about her weight to a couple older women who were encouraging me to marry her, these women told me I was shallow, that looks shouldn't be important, etcetera. As a result of their comments, I put myself in this hole of self-loathing for not being more "deep" or "spiritual" in my outlook. But as I've matured, I realize that this is simply something that increases love in the marriage for me -- that fact that I tend to feel love when I am with an attractive person who also has other good qualities.

Now, I've also dated WILDLY attractive women over the years, and ended up detesting a couple because of their behavior. In fact, their attractiveness no longer triggered love after I got to know their character...So, attractiveness is not everything, it's another part of the overall personna a person brings to the marriage.

I notice it's usually the women who tend to object to the attractive spouse need. Perhaps their greater preferences for romance and greater penchant for spirituality cause this. I don't know, but many say it should not matter. Unfortunately, it does to some men.

There was one study that showed that if an average or below-average looking man marries a well-above average looking woman, the probability of the marriage surviving goes up significantly. So, other men have this need, and having an attractive spouse helps them meet the women's need for affection, admiration and other needs. strengthening the marriage.

I'm not going to be swayed into thinking it's not important to me -- it is....and if my wife loses her looks, well, I'll cross that bridge when it happens. Also, when people say "you shouldn't have that need" or "I disagree with that need", to me, it's like telling a hungry man he doesn't need food, or a drowning man he doesn't need air. Needs are in the eyes of the spouse possessing them.

I think that if a person is considering marrying another, and they know that person has an Attractive Spouse need as their number 1, they need to look really hard at whether this is the right person for them. They also need to know if they have what it takes to stay attractive to the person over the long-term.

[Vort]

On the flip side, I was serious with an LDS woman in my twenties as a single person. She had been grossly obese and had lost weight, but was still very chubby. We got along famously, however, and she met some other needs I had, so we got along very well for several years. But I couldn't bring myself to marry her. The weight was somehow a big issue for me, plus a couple other things.

So, I broke it off...and then, didn't seem to regret it either.

This is a great example of how people get to choose their spouse for whatever reasons they want, or reject potential mates for whatever reason they want. It is laughably absurd to accuse someone of being "shallow" because he doesn't want to marry someone for being heavy, or short, or dark-skinned, or blonde, or having crooked teeth or unusual body odor, or being left-handed, or having a facial tic or ANY OTHER REASON, NO MATTER HOW TRIVIAL IT MAY SEEM. I have little doubt that, in the eternities, we will view many personality "deficiencies" as being just as trivial and unimportant as we now view weight or skin color.

The fact is, we don't really know what's at work in such selections, even with ourselves. There are deep psychological and spiritual factors that we often cannot even glimpse that may well manifest themselves as a seemingly irrational attraction or disattraction (if I may coin the word). The best bet is to teach correct principles on the topic and then let people make their own decision, without hounding them for "shallowness" or "immaturity".

I'll tell you what, if a guy doesn't like blondes, I hope he stays well away from my daughter and doesn't decide to "settle" for her in an attempt to rise above his "shallowness". Please, Future Guy Who Might Date My Daughter, do us all a big favor and ask out the brunette instead.

[Guest]

I think I understand what you're saying, and I don't think it's my place to say whether or how much it's a need for you. This thread honestly isn't a personal attack, it's a search for understanding.

I take a bit of issue with it being called an emotional need, but under your circumstances I do admire that you're finding good where you can to keep your marriage going, so maybe that can be the start of me trying to understand.

I have a really hard time identifying with it, though.

I've given birth to twins this year. Half of that pregnancy I was in bed because of preterm labor. I've carried and delivered 5 children in the last 9 years. My body is not what it was when my husband married me. When I'm not nursing and/or exhausted I've tried to work at it, but the fact is I've gained 30 pounds in the last 10 years. I was never svelte to begin with, but I was curvy and attractive. I'm not ugly and most of the time I make an effort to dress neatly, have pretty hair, and wear makeup at least when I go out. No matter my weight, my makeup, my clothes, whatever, my husband sees me as attractive and sexy. In fact, for some reason I get more attention from him when I'm not all done up. We've talked about it, and it's because he looks at me and sees the woman he loves and has been through a lot with and has shared a life with, besides seeing a women that he thinks is beautiful. He acknowledges that things aren't like they were when I was 20, but also knows why and says he doesn't care, and in fact loves me all the more for what I've been through to have our family. He focuses on the parts he really loves and wants me to be healthy, but otherwise disregards the rest.

My biggest issue is that I've been through times of depression and undiagnosed health problems where I weighed even more. I have a lot of body image issues and had a lot of self-hatred in the past. If he had piled an "emotional need" for me to be thin on top of that, I think it would have crushed me.

His waistline (and hairline ) aren't what they used to be, either. But I find him even sexier than ever, because I know about the stress and sacrifice he's been through for me and our kids. The extra padding and lines on his face are the cost of things he's doing for us. I see him aging and it reminds me that we're growing old together, and we have a long way to go.

As a caveat, there was a tiny bit of an issue early when we were dating. He had an expectation of finding Celestial Barbie like a lot of RM's do, courtesy of stupid mission presidents' promises. I was not that. I was a pretty face in a curvy size ten body (that I would love to have now!). He was worried about what other people would think if he didn't marry the size-2-supermodel-on-the-verge-of-transfiguration. He quickly realized that his own attraction to me was no problem whatsoever, stopped caring what other people thought, and we got past that. So I think there is a lot of societal pressure men can feel to have a "trophy wife" for lack of a better term. But again, how is that an emotional need? Along that vein, could I call wanting a 4000 sq foot custom home in the mountains an emotional need?

If I sound like I'm condemning you, I'm not. It's just really not something I understand. Sure, everyone would like an attractive spouse, but I don't get it being an emotional need that your very happiness is hinged upon (except that, like I said, it's great that you're finding the positives in your marriage wherever you can. . . but what if she was meeting your other needs? Would this one be so important?). Is there any way I can understand that?

Edited November 30, 2011 by Eowyn
typo

[Windseeker]

Well if it's an emotional need then emotional needs must change. My first wife was very attractive, exotic even, and there were several occasions at work and at Church where I ran into groups of men discussing her much to my chagrin. She gave me 4 beautiful kids before cutting loose. My current wife is every bit as attractive to me, but she is not someone who will turn heads when she walks in a room. Thru my experience I found that looks...well they are only skin deep. I suppose it's something that got bumped down the list for me.

I wonder if there is an emotional need to be found attractive?

[estradling75]

Attractive spouse is in the eye of the beholder...

If you were to take a large group of happy long time married folk and judged them by the Hollywood standard of attractive I would wager that many of them fail. Yet I would continue to wager that if you asked the husbands if they found their wife attractive many, if not most, of them would say yes.

Perhaps it might be better phased as an emotional need to be attracted to your spouse. Whatever form that attraction might take.

[Guest]

For me, it's not an emotional need, it's a physical need.

I can't imagine greeting the day every single morning and the first thing you see is a face you find ugly.

Okay, so I married a runway model. Sue me.

[Guest mormonmusic]

It's just really not something I understand. Sure, everyone would like an attractive spouse, but I don't get it being an emotional need that your very happiness is hinged upon (except that, like I said, it's great that you're finding the positives in your marriage wherever you can. . . but what if she was meeting your other needs? Would this one be so important?). Is there any way I can understand that?

I think if she was meeting my other emotional needs, it wouldn't matter as much -- particularly since I've aged myself.

By way of analogy, a while ago I was sick, and my daughter came into my room afraid I wouldn't make it (she is twelve). She asked what she could do to help, and I said, clean up my room -- I had neglected it all week due to sick and busy.

When I woke up three hours later, I found she had cleaned my room thoroughly. I was filled with -- incomprehensible joy and powerful love for her because of what she did. After that she started helping me with the housework. I asked "why the change" -- she said "The look on your face when you woke up to a clean room."

There is obviously no "romantic" or "physical" love between myself and my daughter. But she inadvertently met the starvign Domestic Support need I have, and it triggered all kinds of joy and love and admiration for her. If I really believed my wife was committed to keeping things clean with me (helping me, not doing it all) I think she could generate boatloads of love that would make Attractive Spouse less important.

So, I think that if my wife met my other needs better, her attractiveness would be far less important to me. It might not matter at all.

That is one fear I have -- given the difficulties in my marriage, if my wife ever got obese I'm concerned about the impact it would have on our marriage -- unless she compensates by really meeting my other needs in their place. Her attractiveness has been very important in our marriage since she rarely or barely ever meets my other needs.

Fortunately, attractive spouse is further down my list, supplanted by Domestic Support, Recreational Companionship, Family Commitment and Admiration. But it's something I really lean on to help me stay in my marriage.

Now, for someone to whom Attractive Spouse is number 1, it might be different. Compensation might not be possible.

[Guest]

Okay, so I agree that one should feel attracted to one's spouse. (I think there are more than one ways to get there, though, or at least that that can mean different things for different people). And I see how focusing on that positive can be helpful in the absence of other things. So I think I understand a little better now. Thanks.

[Dravin]

Attractive spouse is in the eye of the beholder...

If you were to take a large group of happy long time married folk and judged them by the Hollywood standard of attractive I would wager that many of them fail. Yet I would continue to wager that if you asked the husbands if they found their wife attractive many, if not most, of them would say yes.

Perhaps it might be better phased as an emotional need to be attracted to your spouse. Whatever form that attraction might take.

Indeed, I look at my wife and see the most beautiful woman in the world. Anyone who disagrees can go jump in a lake.

[annewandering]

Indeed, I look at my wife and see the most beautiful woman in the world. Anyone who disagrees can go jump in a lake.

My husband disagrees but since he thinks I am the most beautiful woman in the world I know he is blind as a bat.

[Dravin]

My husband disagrees but since he thinks I am the most beautiful woman in the world I know he is blind as a bat.

Careful, if he subscribes to my philosophy he may shortly be inviting you to leap into a local body of water.

[annewandering]

Never! He would never do such a thing unless it was very hot and the water was wonderful!

[Dravin]

Never! He would never do such a thing unless it was very hot and the water was wonderful!

I dunno, you are picking on the man's wife.

[annewandering]

Noooo I am sure she is beautiful. Its my husband that is blind!!!

[Backroads]

But... but.... but my husband says I'm the prettiest girl in the world!!!

Why would he lie to me?!?!

(because I do realize Dravin's wife is a gem)

[Backroads]

There's nothing selfish at all about wanting an attractive spouse. You need to think of the children! Isn't it cruel to submit your future children to lousy genetics?

Seriously...

I do get what mormonmusic is saying... I don't think I'm the type. My husband is one good-looking man, but thinking about it, I have had some boyfriends and crushes that lots of people would find physically unattractive. Looks don't matter to me. But I see why it would to some people and I see nothing wrong it. I imagine these people have artistic souls that require aesthetically pleasing surroundings--and spouses.

[Bini]

For me, it's not an emotional need, it's a physical need.

I can't imagine greeting the day every single morning and the first thing you see is a face you find ugly.

Okay, so I married a runway model. Sue me.

Anatess, we just have to see pictures of this man!

[mordorbund]

Okay, so I married a runway model. Sue me.

Anatess, we just have to see pictures of this man!