Son of God?

[Snow]

There is no excusing the unChristian behavior that many Christians have engaged in throughout 2000 years of church history. However, it is unfair to suggest that Christians intentionally, as a faith tradition, sought genocide against Native peoples in this land.

How would you characterize Roman Catholic attitudes and actions in relation to native South American cultures during the Conquest?

[Snow]

The the Apostles go around preaching, baptizing, and forgiving sins. While they're at it, they ordain priests and bishops with that same Authority. When all of the Apostles die, the priests and bishops are still living, preaching, baptizing, and forgiving sins. While they're at it they ordain more priests and bishops with the same Authority. On and on and on until today. (Through the laying on of hands and the Holy Spirit.)

Well, you know, unless you are a Donatist.

Question: So then would you agree that the Greek and Eastern Orthodox Churches all have that same authority?

[Snow]

The Catholic Church does not use the title "Apostle" anymore, not in the way the LDS church does.

We believe that there were 12 Apostles, yes (13 technically, since Judas had to be replaced), and we call the time of their teaching the Apostolic Church, or the Apostolic Age of the Church.

Well, more like 14 or 15. Or doesn't Paul count? Or Junia?

[Hala401]

We look at the whole of Matthew 24, the book of Revelation, etc. and see it as future-oriented. Keep in mind, even the second coming is taught as an imminent event in the New Testament--we see it all tied together, and still believe the prophecies to be imminent.

I agree and the LDS feel that way also. Myself, I plan to keep working, trying to do the will of God, in prayer and supplication, loving those around me, and being charitable. I hope to be so busy that I am the last one to get the word.

In a twist of an old saying we should be so earthly minded that we get heavenly good. :)

[Shelly200]

I thought you accepted Paul as an apostle, as well. Wouldn't that make at least 14?

And if the apostles were being replaced -- which they obviously were -- at what point did that cease? Based on a sola scriptura attitude, this cannot be justified.

The Catholic Church does not believe in either the doctrine of sola scripture, or the doctrine of sola fide.

[Shelly200]

I can only give you a more narrow evangelical answer on that--many of us believe that during the Great Tribulation, many so-called Christians will accept the mark of the Beast, and ally themselves with a global unity religion. You see this type of apostasy portrayed in the Left Behind books, and in other speculative writings about the end times.

Although it is important to point out that the Catholic Church, and some Protestant churches, do not hold to that interpretation of the end times.

[Shelly200]

I thought you accepted Paul as an apostle, as well. Wouldn't that make at least 14?

And if the apostles were being replaced -- which they obviously were -- at what point did that cease? Based on a sola scriptura attitude, this cannot be justified.

As far as Paul being an Apostle. We believe that he is an apostle, lower-case "a," which is someone who has been sent forth, someone who has been given a mission. He refers to himself as an apostle, because he was sent forth by Christ in the book of Acts. But he is not one of the Twelve.

And in regards to Apostle Authority being handed down the line: it is important to note the "thirteenth" Apostle, Matthias. He was chosen to join the Twelve to replace Judas, *by the other Apostles,* not by Christ when He was on Earth. The Twelve made the choice under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but they chose him, he was not picked out by Christ. This shows us that Christ gave the Apostles an Authority that they could hand down to others. Now, we no longer use the title of "Apostle" with any of our clergy, but we believe that they are all imbued with Authority through the Apostolic Succession: the Apostles passed down their Authority, the next generation passed down their Authority, and so on. It did not alter or diminish, and can be traced back to the Apostles, and then ultimately to Christ.

[FunkyTown]

I have not found an internet link - but that is what Columbus recorded. These were the natives he first discovered in the Americas and took some back with him to Europe - they were a very peaceful people that had no offensive or defensive weapons and no word in their vocabulary for war. They disappeared within 150 years - mostly into slavery. Recent DNA testing shows no sign of any possible decedents. Very sad.

The Traveler

The closest I've come to finding evidence that this is true is a suggestion that the Guanches may have had flashes of blond hair and the wall of Chichen Itza may have white dudes on it.

Both of these suggestions came from websites whose authors don't seem to understand that they're the reason flying a confederate flag is frowned upon, ifyaknowwotImean. Can you find any corroboration from any respected authority on this?

[Traveler]

The closest I've come to finding evidence that this is true is a suggestion that the Guanches may have had flashes of blond hair and the wall of Chichen Itza may have white dudes on it.

Both of these suggestions came from websites whose authors don't seem to understand that they're the reason flying a confederate flag is frowned upon, ifyaknowwotImean. Can you find any corroboration from any respected authority on this?

The Native Americans of which I speak were isolated on islands in what we now call the Bahamas. Because Columbus thought he was in Asia he called them Indians – I have never figured out why they were not called Chinese?

The Traveler

[Hala401]

The closest I've come to finding evidence that this is true is a suggestion that the Guanches may have had flashes of blond hair and the wall of Chichen Itza may have white dudes on it.

Both of these suggestions came from websites whose authors don't seem to understand that they're the reason flying a confederate flag is frowned upon, ifyaknowwotImean. Can you find any corroboration from any respected authority on this?

In the 50's when I was in grade school. We thought the first one to cross the ocean to America was Columbus. Now we know that the Chinese were along the west coast, and the Arabs were near Virginia and New Orleans, and that the Vikings landed briefly around Nova Scotia.

[Vort]

The Native Americans of which I speak were isolated on islands in what we now call the Bahamas. Because Columbus thought he was in Asia he called them Indians – I have never figured out why they were not called Chinese?

The Traveler

Probably because American Indians don't look Chinese. They don't look particularly Indian, either, but their eyes generally lack the epicanthic fold that we associate with East Asians. So "Indian" explained both the dark skin coloring and the lack of distinctive eye shape.

[Dravin]

The Native Americans of which I speak were isolated on islands in what we now call the Bahamas. Because Columbus thought he was in Asia he called them Indians – I have never figured out why they were not called Chinese?

The Traveler

Because to my knowledge Columbus maintained* he'd hit India (or at least the Indies). Calling them Chinese would be like me getting lost, claiming I'm in Colorado but calling the people Montanans. Once it was verified that Columbus did not hit India inertia had taken over.

*Which could have been a face saving measure or genuine insistence. I'm not all that conversant with Columbus history.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Dravin

[prisonchaplain]

Luther was but one cog in what was to be a mighty machine rebeling at the massive corruption that permeated the Catholic Church right up to the Pope(s).

Apostasy Recognized by Reformationists

This article quotes a lot of early colonial and American pastors who lamented the need for spiritual renewal. However, I am wondering if the context of their complaints might be similar to Billy Graham's recent statement that, "If God does not bring judgment to America then he'll need to apologize to Sodom & Gomorrah." In other words, I doubt that what these ministers were yearning for was the kind of restoration taught in the LDS church. Further, I am skeptical as to whether the apostasy they perceived was as great as that taught in the Great Apostasy doctrine.

[Hala401]

This article quotes a lot of early colonial and American pastors who lamented the need for spiritual renewal. However, I am wondering if the context of their complaints might be similar to Billy Graham's recent statement that, "If God does not bring judgment to America then he'll need to apologize to Sodom & Gomorrah." In other words, I doubt that what these ministers were yearning for was the kind of restoration taught in the LDS church. Further, I am skeptical as to whether the apostasy they perceived was as great as that taught in the Great Apostasy doctrine.

I mean that I don't have any thing bad to say about him, (see I'm trying to be nice), but he and some of the others just seem a little extreme for me. In my digging into early LDS history, it seems like the late 1700's and early 1800's were a pretty chaotic time for religion in America; a lot of metaphysics, and strange stuff. It was not at all what I expected to find. I had previously thought that the American church in that period was like a total intellectual pillar.

There is a cute little document that I think you would find interesting if you can find a copy of it, from the 1997 Evangelical Theological Society, Far West Annual Meeting, in which the author complains that his peers have gotten neglectful in scholarship. Well, we can all use a tune up now and then, especially me. I must have to admit that I still fight a good bit of hostility against Evangelicals, but I do hope that in time God will heal me of it.

[Windseeker]

This article quotes a lot of early colonial and American pastors who lamented the need for spiritual renewal. However, I am wondering if the context of their complaints might be similar to Billy Graham's recent statement that, "If God does not bring judgment to America then he'll need to apologize to Sodom & Gomorrah." In other words, I doubt that what these ministers were yearning for was the kind of restoration taught in the LDS church. Further, I am skeptical as to whether the apostasy they perceived was as great as that taught in the Great Apostasy doctrine.

It does not seem that way to me

Billy Graham seems to be complaining about the acceptance of wickedness in this country while the ministers quoted were talking about the loss of the gospel and doctrine of the original church.

..thanks for bringing this back on topic

[Snow]

In the 50's when I was in grade school. We thought the first one to cross the ocean to America was Columbus. Now we know that the Chinese were along the west coast, and the Arabs were near Virginia and New Orleans, and that the Vikings landed briefly around Nova Scotia.

Uh, no, we don't know any such thing. By "Now we know that the Chinese were along the west coast" I assume you are referring to Gavin Menzies' book 1421. Having read the book, I think it's nonsense. Scholars generally agree. Here's the kind of thing they say:

"His book 1421: The Year China Discovered the World, is a work of sheer fiction presented as revisionist history. Not a single document or artifact has been found to support his new claims on the supposed Ming naval expeditions beyond Africa...Menzies' numerous claims and the hundreds of pieces of "evidence" he has assembled have been thoroughly and entirely discredited by historians, maritime experts and oceanographers from China, the U.S., Europe and elsewhere" Gui-Ping, J; Pereira, M; Rivers PJ; Ming-Yang S; Wade G (2006).

If you are referring to something else, please tell me what it is.

As for Arabs and Virginia and New Orleans... what is it you think we know?

[Snow]

This article quotes a lot of early colonial and American pastors who lamented the need for spiritual renewal. However, I am wondering if the context of their complaints might be similar to Billy Graham's recent statement that, "If God does not bring judgment to America then he'll need to apologize to Sodom & Gomorrah." In other words, I doubt that what these ministers were yearning for was the kind of restoration taught in the LDS church. Further, I am skeptical as to whether the apostasy they perceived was as great as that taught in the Great Apostasy doctrine.

My point had nothing to do with whether or not they like Mormonism. Rather it was in response to your counter that a reformationist, Luther, didn't set out initially to reform the massive corruption he saw in the Catholic Church. My point, as I recall, is that regardless of Luther's initial reluctance, the reformation was a response to the corruption.

[Hala401]

Uh, no, we don't know any such thing. By "Now we know that the Chinese were along the west coast" I assume you are referring to Gavin Menzies' book 1421. Having read the book, I think it's nonsense. Scholars generally agree. Here's the kind of thing they say:

"His book 1421: The Year China Discovered the World, is a work of sheer fiction presented as revisionist history. Not a single document or artifact has been found to support his new claims on the supposed Ming naval expeditions beyond Africa...Menzies' numerous claims and the hundreds of pieces of "evidence" he has assembled have been thoroughly and entirely discredited by historians, maritime experts and oceanographers from China, the U.S., Europe and elsewhere" Gui-Ping, J; Pereira, M; Rivers PJ; Ming-Yang S; Wade G (2006).

If you are referring to something else, please tell me what it is.

As for Arabs and Virginia and New Orleans... what is it you think we know?

Gasp, now you are going to force me to do research to support my statement? Well, OK then.

[Snow]

Gasp, now you are going to force me to do research to support my statement? Well, OK then.

Yes - we have our eye on you. :)

[Hala401]

Yes - we have our eye on you. :)

OK, let's take the Chinese first. I live in Portland, Oregon and used to frequent Portland State University a bit. I once heard some students talking about the Chinese explorers, but took only a casual interest in it. I will have to run by there soon, once school is in session again to see what their Archaeology folk have to say about it. Here is one link that mentions the book that you say has been discredited.

Explorer from China who 'beat Columbus to America' - Telegraph

This may take some time, but I am sure to learn from the project. :)

[Traveler]

In the 50's when I was in grade school. We thought the first one to cross the ocean to America was Columbus. Now we know that the Chinese were along the west coast, and the Arabs were near Virginia and New Orleans, and that the Vikings landed briefly around Nova Scotia.

History has some interesting references. There is evidence in the Bible that King David in Israel with Hyrum of Sidon also reached the America’s. I find it interesting that a river in the book of Mormon was called Sidon. In addition the ancient Mayan had the technology (building - construction) to build ships, they had mathematics and the astrophysics capable of reaching virtually any civilization on the planet earth and navigate themselves home. The Mayan scientists were considered to have come from a faraway land and were called “watermen”.

The Traveler

[jayanna]

Acts 3:21 

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

There needs to a be a restitution of all things, where the gospel was lost and brought back again. This is speaking of the restoration of the gospel to the earth.

It is also spoken of in Daniel. Daniel 2:44 

The kingdom that God shall set up, after the others have broken up, is Zion, the Church of Jesus Christ. And instead of being consumed or led by others we have "broken up" in wards and branches and stakes and missionaries sent out in twos, throughout the world and consuming all these nations. When you consume something you make it part of yourself, when we consume the kingdoms of the earth, we do it by making them part of us. And this kingdom will now stand forever. The stone that is cut without human hands is the true word of God that is not altered by men that has built and continues to lead the Church of Jesus Christ in these Latter Days. Notice as time goes by from the time of the prophets of old, the materials of the statue become less and less precious. The kingdoms are getting further from the true word of God.

This is foreknowledge for that king (and Daniel) to know what would come in the latter days. The stone cut without hands has gone to other countries and is consuming them. If the kingdom of God never fell, then why would there be a necessity to make a new one?

[FunkyTown]

There is an awful lot of non-sourced radical ideas on here that mingle non-sequitur facts, so I think I'm going to put my own out here.

We all know that Eskimos are the first to have discovered the entire world. The Inuit migrated to Africa in 325000 BC and concentrated in what would become the Mesopotamian region later on.

Then, as we all know, they were the first to discover the Americas when they flew there on the back of Apollo 11, which traveled through time when it hit the dark side of the moon.

This is why we call French Fries 'French' despite them being neither always made in France nor always Fried.

[prisonchaplain]

How would you characterize Roman Catholic attitudes and actions in relation to native South American cultures during the Conquest?

Overly influenced by general European attitudes of the era?

[prisonchaplain]

It does not seem that way to me

Billy Graham seems to be complaining about the acceptance of wickedness in this country while the ministers quoted were talking about the loss of the gospel and doctrine of the original church.

..thanks for bringing this back on topic

You are certainly right about Billy Graham...not so sure about those others. I'll do some digging. I am aware that Jonathan Edwards, one of the pastors cited, was instrumental a small revival that took place in his church. It came as an outgrowth of a sermon entitled, "Sinners in the hands of an angry God." He called for repentance, and I understand that many in the village literally cried out to God for mercy and forgiveness.

That just doesn't sound like the kind of leader who believed the church was an utterly failed institution, in need of restored apostolic authority--not to mention priesthood authority. Again, I'll do some digging though.