Are You 'on Fire' For Jesus? Ready For Battle?

[prisonchaplain]

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE(Outshined @ Sep 29 2006, 07:52 AM) ←</div><div class=\'quotemain\'>

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4340346

Read the link before you judge your fellow Christians, based on an apparent hit-piece by non-evangelicals. The Denver Post is not a Christian publication. A quick reading of this article confirmed my suspicions.

You LDS folk ought to be used to this type of treatment. Imagine the producers of "The Godmakers" getting unlimited access to one of your multi-day conventions, and then slicing and dicing the footage to present the COJCLDS to the world. Then imagine me saying, "Wow...that's scary..."

I wish I had access to the footage, but based on the link above, I'm pretty sure I know what I'd see. Think on this--would a Christian militia cult allow unfettered access to it's youth training ground, to a Catholic and a Jewish film producer?

As they say in Georgia, "That dog don't hunt."

[LionHeart]

I didn't think that things like this happened in America.

Does anyone remeber that ruby ridge incident? That Randy Weaver character had some wild ideas; that the end of the world was coming and that everyone should hoard an arsenal of weaponry to defend what's theirs. It sure is sad how that turned out.

L.H.

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

I didn't think that things like this happened in America.

Does anyone remeber that ruby ridge incident? That Randy Weaver character had some wild ideas; that the end of the world was coming and that everyone should hoard an arsenal of weaponry to defend what's theirs. It sure is sad how that turned out.

L.H.

Jim Jones.. and what was it called? Jonestown? Was that not america. You read about how he wanted evenyone to kill themselves with poison... and images of parents trying to get their kids to drink it... (White night to me was the worst).

[Outshined]

Does anyone remeber that ruby ridge incident? That Randy Weaver character had some wild ideas; that the end of the world was coming and that everyone should hoard an arsenal of weaponry to defend what's theirs. It sure is sad how that turned out.

Yes, the government had to shell out millions for killing his wife and son. It was a tragedy.

[prisonchaplain]

Okay, I watched three or four of the film clips from the ifilms site. As I suspected, I see nothing shocking here.

1. The children are being encouraged to take the battle against sin, Satan, etc. seriously.

2. The leaders of the camp employ the same type of imagery and rhetoric Paul sometimes does (we battle not against flesh and blood, but against spirits and principalities...).

3. There is no weapons training, no military recruitment.

4. The background music is what makes it all seem so ominous and scary. Out of context, if viewers are suspicious of evangelical Christianity, this will seem like Waco and Ruby Ridge all over again.

Bottom line: IT'S NOT.

Hate to say it, but some have been snookered by Hollywood. :-(

[Dr T]

Maybe you can talk about the good you see in those clips then P.C.

Thanks

[prisonchaplain]

The good I see in the clips are kids being encouraged from an early age to take their relationship with God and Jesus seriously. To understand that sin can be truly devestating--that Satan really would seek to destroy us.

I've seen children--including myself--come out of similar camps walking away from drugs, alcohol, and bad relationships, and dedicating themselves to their God, their church, and right living.

To be continued...

[Dr T]

Those sound good (from here). Can the Muslims say the same thing about their children "camps"? Would you say both are good and godly?

Thanks

[prisonchaplain]

The Muslim camps referred to allegedly train young jihadists to be suicide-bombers, etc. IMHO, this whole string relates to the whole Muslim vs. Christian extremist stream of thought--the moral equivalency argument of some--that there is no difference.

My take is that the true Christian extremists are extremely rare, but that non-Christians often willfully pull quotes out of context to make a fairly broad segment of the Christian faith (i.e. evangelical Christians) appear to be extremist.

Examples: Statements like, "Let's take America for Jesus." "Let's win the lost--at any cost!!" They take such quotes, put some ominous music to it, and then hint at images of Waco (David Koresh and the Branch Davidians), Ruby Ridge, or some of the White Supremist and state militia movements.

I don't know if their efforts are an intentional smeer, or if they are truly and woefully ignorant. My sense is that IF it's the latter, the lack of discernment is willful, and at least partially politically motivated (evangelicals are a core Republican constituency).

[Outshined]

I still get the impression that it's meant to sensationalize and mislead, as The Godmakers did. It seems to put the camps and the people involved in the worst possible light, by design in my opinion.

[Snow]

So I saw some clips on TV - which can probably be edited to produce a desired slant but I'd say that they are producing the next generation of anti-science, pro-bigoted idealogues.

[StrawberryFields]

PC,

I think that you are a wonderful chaplain.

I had never heard of such training until you brought it to my attention here. Now, parent to parent, is this something you will put your own children into.

[Traveler]

I'll be frank--I have not seen the film (dialup at home, aggressive filters at work). However, it's easy for me to believe that film-makers who are unsympathetic to Christianity in general, and to conservative evangelicalism, in particular, could take some revivalist rhetoric and twist it to mean what it does not.

Haggard is about as mainstream as you can get. Unless this camp is some fringe cult, my guess is that they are encouraging the kids to total dedication, and using the same "military" language Paul sometimes employed.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this is some wacked out religious militia sect. But, my default is to trust a fellow Christian church before I'd trust Hollywood.

I have learned by sad experience that it does not matter if the media is sympathetic or not - They sill almost always get something important wrong in any story. I have pleaded many times if someone wants to learn about any group that they correspond directly with someone devout in that group.

As one trained in combat and war I am amazed how little society knows about war. I have yet to see a movie demonstrate correctly setting up a defensive perimeter or penetrating a guarded facility. I am also concerned about the politics of war and the politicians that have been in combat that misrepresent what must be done in preparing for war.

I regret that we do not train youth for war better than we do. Many forget that the Boy Scouts was established as an organization to prepare youth for combat and war. I found what I learned as a boy scout one of the most important preparations for military service. The concept of "doing a good turn daily", and a pledge of honor to G-d and country has become almost a attitude of shame. What few seem to understand that being able to serve in the military is not so different from being able to serve in society. I have always felt that someone that does not serve in the military should not be allowed full citizenship. This because they have false sense of security concerning defending a society.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

PC,

I think that you are a wonderful chaplain.

I had never heard of such training until you brought it to my attention here. Now, parent to parent, is this something you will put your own children into.

The Bible camps of the Assemblies of God do not quite use the militaristic jargon that this camp did. Furthermore, the kids camps are for upper elementary, and are a lot more fun. They use puppets, clowns, games, etc. Jesus is show to be fun, loving, and a powerful protector. Children will be called to "surrender their lives to Jesus." They may well speak in tongues, cry, etc. We will not apologize for allowing God to work mightily in our children.

The Youth Camps--Jr. Highers have theirs, Sr. Highers theirs, are more likely to emphasize teen themes: abstinence from drugs/alcohol, sexual purity, and avoiding worldly music/tv/etc. Additionally, the children will receive a strong call to salvation, to being baptized in the Holy Spirit (yes, with tongues speech), and to answering God's call to spread the gospel, beginning with their school friends. In the Sr. High camp, some will answer a call to "full-time service."

So, while our camps differ from the one portrayed in the movie, the passion and emotion are there. I went through six years of summer Bible camp (probably about 10 weeks total). I was also a counselor for about three years. I never saw the politics of the camp portrayed, and there was no "brain washing."

Bottom-line: Yes, my kids will go to Bible camp--though not in South Dakota.

[Dr T]

Define brainwashing P.C. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Define brainwashing P.C. :)

Might be easier to say what brainwashing is not. LDS young people attend three hours of training every Sunday, in addition to seminary, and probably some youth activities. Then there's Family Home Evening. Nobody would dream of calling this system of religious programming 'brain washing,' even though it is a rather intensive and extensive amount of religious education.

What differs with the Bible camp? The experiences are more emotional, more passionate? Indeed, a French 'anti-cult' government agency has determined that the Assemblies of God is a mind-control cult, on that basis. BTW, France has been condemned internationally for this agency's decrees.

Is it that the camp is a live-in experience? Most religions have such retreats--even Catholicism.

Perhaps what bothers some is that some of the children seemed awfully young to be sent to such an intense camp for a week. I was a counselor at a Salvation Army camp, and we had kids as young as six. Nobody would have accused it of being a brain washing operation.

So, maybe I have to throw the question back. What about Jesus Camp gives the impression of being brain washing?

[Dr T]

I don't know. I thought brainwashing was about indoctrination to a cause. In that sense, it is to some extent. I brain wash my kids (all the time), as I'm sure you do too.

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

1 : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas

2 : persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship

[Princess3dward]

Brainwashing is any technique used to make an idea or action stick into your sub-consious...

[Dr T]

So then wouldn't you agree that it does happen at "camps," church, seminary, school, parenting, etc.?

[Princess3dward]

So then wouldn't you agree that it does happen at "camps," church, seminary, school, parenting, etc.?

It depends how it is done. I am not saying it can't... but if you have ever been to seminary and seen the youth of the church... it doesn't quite happen there. As for camps.. that is all about survival and getting burned and bitten.. so that is just horrible anyway.

[prisonchaplain]

I don't know. I thought brainwashing was about indoctrination to a cause. In that sense, it is to some extent. I brain wash my kids (all the time), as I'm sure you do too.

If that's the definition, it's a meaningless word. The classic group accused of brainwashing is the Unification Church (Moonies). Supposedly, they would take investigators off to retreats where there was limited sleep, unbalanced nutrition, so that resistance was weak. My thought is that the accusations were largely groundless.

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

1 : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas

This is the definition I had in mind. The idea of force coupled with unwillingness.

2 : persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship

Often we accuse our enemies of brainwashing, knowing full well that only definition #2 fits, but also knowing that most people will assume #1. Put another way, "brainwash" is probably one of the most misused and overused words in the English language, im always ho.

[pushka]

I agree with PC that the 1st definition applied to Brainwashing is what I would have thought it would be, also that description of the way in which the Unification Church worked with its members.

I would therefore assume that elements of both Force and Fear of the consequences of not accepting the alternative points of view you are being asked to adopt would have to figure somewhere in the equation in order for it to be truly a Brainwashing experience.

[Princess3dward]

I agree with PC that the 1st definition applied to Brainwashing is what I would have thought it would be, also that description of the way in which the Unification Church worked with its members.

I would therefore assume that elements of both Force and Fear of the consequences of not accepting the alternative points of view you are being asked to adopt would have to figure somewhere in the equation in order for it to be truly a Brainwashing experience.

I think most brainwashing techniques use stuff like your own family and such to create fear.. They don't need to use force as much when they have your entire family, and you are all faking to be happy.

[StrawberryFields]

<div class='quotemain'>

PC,

I think that you are a wonderful chaplain.

I had never heard of such training until you brought it to my attention here. Now, parent to parent, is this something you will put your own children into.

Bottom-line: Yes, my kids will go to Bible camp--though not in South Dakota.

How old will your children be when they go? What kind of timeline is needed to complete Bible School?

I believe that Bible School is something I have heard of in my area. Do children 'graduate' from this type of school?

Thank You from your replies to my questions. :)

[shanstress70]

Hate to say it, but some have been snookered by Hollywood. :-(

You can disagree with my opinions on this, but please don't tell me I've been 'snookered' by Hollywood. I know this is a sensationalist documentary, but I still wholeheartedly disagree with what these camps are doing.

I think it teaches children to dislike anyone different from them. I also think it teaches that violence is the answer to our problems. And I can totally see one of these kids committing an abortion clinic bombing eventually!