Should parents put their dating teenage daughters on birth control?

[Klein_Helmer]

Well, for one, there's this:

This strikes me as a non sequitur. Your claim was that one of sound judgment would not act in accordance with the program I have described. When asked how to came to this conclusion, you cited the following passage:

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice. (source)

What specifically about these words has brought about your notion that individuals of sound judgment could not possibly favor the program in question.

I am not seeing anything resembling a direct connection.

Also, when you study leadership, you learn that great leaders don't make decisions. Great leaders inspire people to make decisions for themselves. Your proposal is the exact opposite of great leadership.

What are you talking about here?

Please provide an example.

Okay, so we sterilize people when they reach sexual maturity. You do realize that people reach sexual maturity in their early twenties, right? Which does absolutely nothing to address the issue of teenage pregnancy.

You are objectively wrong.

Sexual maturity occurs when an organism gains the ability to reproduce.

[Klein_Helmer]

This really ought to be your avatar.

Then you can make this your signature:

"And when everyone's super, no one will be"

You rascal!

[Hala401]

I think I should like to unsubscribe from this particular thread.

[Bini]

I think I should like to unsubscribe from this particular thread.

You are free to do so.

[Hala401]

You are free to do so.

Sorry, I do not know how yet.

[jerome1232]

Sorry, I do not know how yet.

The same way you subscribe to one basically, thread tools, unsuscribe.

[Klein_Helmer]

Off topic but Klein, your pic reminds me of Balthier. Could be the hand gesture..

I am not familiar with this Balthier chap, I hope I have not just been zinged.

In any case, you are a rather fetching young lady yourself.

[Hala401]

The same way you subscribe to one basically, thread tools, unsuscribe.

Sorry, I still do not understand how to do it.

[mordorbund]

Sorry, I still do not understand how to do it.

Go to the first post of the page. Just above that, on the right side of the page, is a menu of words in bold with a down arrow (if you get to the page number/navigation you've gone too far). The first item is Thread Tools click on that. The third option is "unsubscribe from this thread".

EDIT: Oh good, I'm the first post of the page. Just look above my stats on the right - that's where the menu is.

[Vort]

This really ought to be your avatar.

Then you can make this your signature:

"And when everyone's super, no one will be"

Aha! That's where I got the idea.

[Hala401]

Aha! That's where I got the idea.

Is it ok to say that he is an immature troll?

[Klein_Helmer]

My statement has nothing to do with the number of fit parents. But if you sterilize everyone at birth, you've almost certainly damaged their reproductive system irreparably. I suppose you can argue for artificial means, but I think you'll find that even Artificial Reproductive Technology experts would recommend natural methods over artificial methods.

Indeed.

Though this has already been addressed. I have modified my suggested program to delay the sterilization to sexual maturity, and to devote a massive amount of government funding to improve the safety and efficacy of the procedure.

The "good" that would not come from your plan is the "good" that is developed by people learning to take responsibility for their actions. The concept of saving people from themselves, as you put it, inherently removes from them the opportunity to learn to weigh risk against benefit. Your solution is, in essence, to replace one problem with another.

My contention is that the better part of humanity is simply incapable of such learning. That being the case, I strongly advocate removing the "opportunity" to fail at such an endeavor.

With regard to your suggestion that my idea has replaced one problem with another, I would be curious to hear your thoughts on the nature of this, "new" problem - provided it is something other than the ill conceived notion that taking away reproductive privileges from the unfit would be a misstep in terms of social engineering.

The world doesn't need more people who don't know how to project the impact of their present decisions into their future.

I am not sue what you are suggesting here. I have taken some time to discuss the implications of both moving forward with the status quo, and the potential ramifications of adopting the policies I have argued for.

[Klein_Helmer]

I was commenting on this sentence you wrote.

When I was new here, I was lambasted for supposedly telling people "what they believed" and that I insinuated they said or believed something they didn't say in a post.

So, I agree with you. Folks should not assume what you do or don't believe based on what you may have read, and attack your character, and just let your posts speak for themselves. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Ah, thank you for the clarification. I very much agree.

[annewandering]

What is hard about understanding that when you force a person to be sterilized you are taking away free agency? This is exactly the idea Lucifer purposed in the Great Council. We, including you, did not chose that plan. If you had, you would not be here. Why should we change our minds now?

[Klein_Helmer]

Klein, my response to your philosophy is:

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I will do my best to address each of your points.

1.) There is no organization on the planet that is fit to make the decision of who is and isn't qualified for parenthood. In a process like this, you can't remove the factor of human nature out of the equation. Even in a relatively homogenous group of people like the LDS Church who are supposed to share the same family ideals, with a very set, unbendable process of leadership selection (at least in the first presidency and the 12 apostles), assigning those 15 people the task of parental qualification is not going to give you your desired outcome.

Your objection here seems to be built on the same premise as is my proposal, ie, the intimidating flaws of human nature.

My response is this: Few as they may be, there are good enough people out there. The best of humanity is truly a thing at which to marvel. If we can but find them, and put them at their rightful place at the helm, they are capable of leading us into a wonderful future.

I will concede that such a group has not yet been assembled into a position of influential, world changing leadership; but philosophically, the absence of such an occurence in the past is in no way indicative that such a thing is not possible.

Let's just take temple sealings as an example. Supposedly, temple sealing is the ultimate in marital binding that only the most qualified of members can hope to receive. YET, in that one example of "controlled" selection, you still have many broken homes and miserable children as byproducts of such unions.

In my ward alone, I can name you a bishop, a couple EQ Pres, RS Pres, and a YM Pres, all highly-qualified parents, all sealed in the temple, all with broken homes.

I would respond to this by saying that the mechanism was broken, not its spirit.

In any case, am I correct in assuming that the children from these "broken homes" did not go on to commit violent crimes?

Temple Sealings are not perfect, but perhaps they are a step in the right direction.

2.) Creating a controlling body to police procreation provides more harm than good. Just to give you an example - Welfare: Controlled by government, provided for with the objective of eradicating poverty in America. Now, we can all agree that the American government is a superior form of government 2nd to none. Yet, over 50 years later, poverty is just as bad. Why? Because, for everything that you hand over to a ruling group, human nature always makes such opportunity a means to keep the ruling group in power over the people.

Welfare is not an attempt to police procreation. In fact, some would argue it encourages harmful procreation by incentivizing (or at the very least, taking away responsibility for) it monetarily. Welfare would likely become a thing of the past, were all children given the right to healthy homes and a suitable education - as they would under my plan.

Power corruption is an integral part to the fabric of our mortal state. Religion - as much good as it provides its members - is a perfect tool to use as a weapon in power wars. Any form of discrimination - anything that makes one person different from the other - is another perfect tool. Hence, wars between colors, cultures, and even the simple fact of bullying in the playground. You give this power to control pro-creative powers to a ruling group, it will become another weapon in power wars. It is easy for me to see how such a tool can be used to provide more manpower to a specific group and deny it from another merely by dis-allowing a group the power to create a new generation. Think of this - right now, there is a higher level of crime/poverty/illiteracy among the black community than the Asian community. A group with the power to dictate who gets to procreate or not can easily use that power to say - hey, I want to wipe out blacks from this planet, here's a convenient excuse - let's not give them the means to procreate. By the way, this is not so far fetched - this is one of the ways England were able to rule the Scots - by decreeing that all newly married Scottish woman have to bed an English first, effectively turning many of the next generation of Scots into English.

This is why our leaders must be carefully selected. Without getting into a long winded analysis of the root societal causes, I will grant that there are marked differences in any number of measures, between different racial and ethnic groups in the United States. I believe however the injection of racism (or any other prejudice) into the discussion assumes a colossal failure in the selection of the leadership, which I find unlikely.

3.) Procreation remains an individual choice to build a clan. In the Philippines, for example, your family is your protection, support, and heritage. That's why, in the Philippines, they can survive without welfare programs. They can oust the well-war-equipped Spanish/Japanese/American colonizers with very primitive tools to engage in war. They can successfully live under a no-divorce, no-abortion law. Because, Filipinos are willing to live and die by their families. One of the main problems of American and European societies is the disintegration of the family. Taking away the power of procreation from the people takes away the power of a clan.

My proposal is to further promote and sanctify the family, not work toward its disintegration. In my mind, a family should be considerably more than a group of people with shared genetic material.

[Klein_Helmer]

Of course you did, when you suggested setting yourself (or someone else) up as the external arbiter of reproduction.

"or someone else," of course being the key phrase. Again, I never, once, set myself up as being above anyone else. You have no sense of the esteem I hold myself in.

You will allow me to speak for myself.

Is it ok to say that he is an immature troll?

I am in no position of authority, so I cannot speak here with any certainty.

As far as I am concerned, it is OK for you to make such a statement, so long as you are willing to substantiate it with some form of evidence.

If you are unwilling/unable to do so, you might need to check the mirror for a plank in your eye.

What is hard about understanding that when you force a person to be sterilized you are taking away free agency?

Nothing. It is a very simple idea, and I favor it.

This is exactly the idea Lucifer purposed in the Great Council. We, including you, did not chose that plan. If you had, you would not be here. Why should we change our minds now?

I am not familiar with most of this.

Why is it you think I would not exist, had the world operated under the conditions I am suggesting?

We should change our minds now, because my idea is better than what we are currently working with.

[annewandering]

Your idea is not better than God's plan of free agency. You would exist as a follower of Satan and not with a body as you have now. The fact that you are here is evidence that you agreed that free agency is the better plan.

So now you think its all good and proper to backtrack on that to force sterilization on people against their will to suit your form of eugenics. Poor, uneducated, genetically flawed people would never be given the chance to have families. Only the privileged class.

All things considered it would cause a war the likes of which we have not known since the French Revolution.

[Leah]

"or someone else," of course being the key phrase. Again, I never, once, set myself up as being above anyone else. You have no sense of the esteem I hold myself in.

You will allow me to speak for myself.

I am in no position of authority, so I cannot speak here with any certainty.

As far as I am concerned, it is OK for you to make such a statement, so long as you are willing to substantiate it with some form of evidence.

If you are unwilling/unable to do so, you might need to check the mirror for a plank in your eye.

Nothing. It is a very simple idea, and I favor it.

I am not familiar with most of this.

Why is it you think I would not exist, had the world operated under the conditions I am suggesting?

We should change our minds now, because my idea is better than what we are currently working with.

No, no it is not. No one's "idea" is better than Heavenly Father's plan.

[Hala401]

"or someone else," of course being the key phrase. Again, I never, once, set myself up as being above anyone else. You have no sense of the esteem I hold myself in.

You will allow me to speak for myself.

I am in no position of authority, so I cannot speak here with any certainty.

As far as I am concerned, it is OK for you to make such a statement, so long as you are willing to substantiate it with some form of evidence.

If you are unwilling/unable to do so, you might need to check the mirror for a plank in your eye.

Nothing. It is a very simple idea, and I favor it.

I am not familiar with most of this.

Why is it you think I would not exist, had the world operated under the conditions I am suggesting?

We should change our minds now, because my idea is better than what we are currently working with.

Confrontive nasty males turn me off.

[Klein_Helmer]

Confrontive nasty males turn me off.

That seems like a strange thing to say.

I have been in no way confrontational, and I have certainly not been, "nasty." I have engaged in cordial discourse with others, and offered the same to you.

I am more than willing to discuss with you any matter at hand in this thread.

I do not however appreciate your baseless lobbing of the designation, "troll," when you yourself have not yet addressed the relevant subject matter.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Klein_Helmer

[Klein_Helmer]

In any case, it was never my intention to, "turn anyone on."

[Klein_Helmer]

Your idea is not better than God's plan of free agency.

I believe that it is, and would cite as evidence the current and previous states of the world. For all practical purposes, we, as a species, are, and have for some time been flying off the rails. The time for change has long since arrived.

You would exist as a follower of Satan and not with a body as you have now. The fact that you are here is evidence that you agreed that free agency is the better plan.

This is an enormous leap of logic, but I'll bite.

Why is it you think that my existence is evidence that I agreed (which I never did) that free agency (with regard to reproduction) is the better plan?

Why is it you think I would be an amorphous, bodyless, Satan worshiping wraith were there to exist a parenting license?

So now you think its all good and proper to backtrack on that to force sterilization on people against their will to suit your form of eugenics. Poor, uneducated, genetically flawed people would never be given the chance to have families. Only the privileged class. All things considered it would cause a war the likes of which we have not known since the French Revolution.

If those deemed unfit to reproduce took it upon themselves to violently revolt, order would need to be maintained - no matter what the cost.

No, no it is not. No one's "idea" is better than Heavenly Father's plan.

Like I said, the plan to which you refer is not delivering.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Klein_Helmer

[Leah]

I believe that it is, and would cite as evidence the current and previous states of the world. For all practical purposes, we, as a species, are, and have for some time been flying off the rails. The time for change has long since arrived.

This is an enormous leap of logic, but I'll bite.

Why is it you think that my existence is evidence that I agreed (which I never did) that free agency (with regard to reproduction) is the better plan?

Why is it you think I would be an amorphous, bodyless, Satan worshiping wraith were there to exist a parenting license?

If those deemed unfit to reproduce took it upon themselves to violently revolt, order would need to be maintained - no matter what the cost.

Like I said, the plan to which you refer is not delivering.

I am still not convinced that you are nothing more than a silly troll.

God's plan IS working. For you to think that any idea that you have is better than our Heavenly Father's......is either one of arrogance, delusion, evil...or - again - just a silly little troll here to try to have their pathetic version of "fun".

You would force sterilization on people "no matter the cost"? The cost to you will be horrific.

It might be a curiousity to be on hand on Judgment day, when you are explaining to Heavenly Father why you think your ideas - and you - are superior to him.

[Klein_Helmer]

I am still not convinced that you are nothing more than a silly troll.

God's plan IS working. For you to think that any idea that you have is better than our Heavenly Father's......is either one of arrogance, delusion, evil...or - again - just a silly little troll here to try to have their pathetic version of "fun".

You would force sterilization on people "no matter the cost"? The cost to you will be horrific.

It might be a curiousity to be on hand on Judgment day, when you are explaining to Heavenly Father why you think your ideas - and you - are superior to him.

Well, I have already made clear my sincerity, you can take it or leave it.

I have also already made my case (spoken at length regarding the ineffectiveness of this, "plan"), you are welcome to offer a refutation.

I do not however believe we will get anywhere by you simply stating that my plan is inferior, "because."

Also, was that last bit a glib insinuation that you would enjoy being witness to my eternal demise?

Ouch.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Klein_Helmer

[Guest]

or - again - just a silly little troll here to try to have their pathetic version of "fun".

Yes. I think we should stop feeding the troll.