I am feeling like I am enabling bad behavior

[Just_8Guy]

My wife just recently informed me she is "lending" $1,000 to her brother because he incurred this much debt gambling. This is the second time he has asked us for money on a gambling debt. My wife said he learned his lesson last time and he would not ask us again.

He paid us back only $800 last time before he incurred this new $1,000 debt. I am not happy about this. I got angry when she said we were lending this money to her brother again. I told her he needs to attend the Latter-Day Saint Addiction Recovery program. I think he needs to grow up and not ask for a bail out of his self incurred problems.

I know he will not attend Addiction Recovery Program. I feel like I am just enabling destructive behavior. My wife has about $30,000 of college debt we have not paid off. Just because we have about $11,000 in the bank doesn't mean we are rich. I believe we will be responsible for our own retirement in the future because there will not be any social security.

I am not happy about this at all. Any advice?

[pam]

I think how you feel about it is correct. But you are in a tough position. If you completely forbid the lending of the money, how does that affect your relationship with your wife? She feels some loyalty to her brother as well.

[FairChild]

Amazing how his problem has now grown into "YOUR" problem. Never a good sign that he is growing the way a person should.

[Just_8Guy]

It is very frustrating. I told her we were never lending him money again after this if the debt was incurred on gambling.

We have helped out some of her other family in the past. I have no problem with lending money for situation like unemployment that is not your fault. I do have a problem with enabling destructive behavior.

[estradling75]

The problem you are having with your Brother-In-Law... is a secondary problem to your main one. Your main one is that you and your wife are not united in this course of action that is being taken. I would state that you and your wife learning to work through your difference and being able to come to a mutually agreeable plan of action is much more important (to you and your wife) then worrying if you are enabling your B-I-L.

Now you have made your case to us, but we can't talk to your wife, we can only talk to you. That presents a problem. If we agree with you and disagree with your wife (as you have presented) then we risk polarizing your situation with your wife, we risk encouraging your into an "I'm right stance" when you need to be in a "Lets work through this" stance. Now if we disagreed with you it would be less risky because we can talk and reason with you... but in the end it is not us that need to convince you or have you convince us, it you and your wife that need to have that discussion

[JudoMinja]

Building on estradling's point:

I believe you are right that it is wrong to enable improper behavior. If someone is in need of help due to a problem, addiction, etc. they should be doing something to "earn" that help and show that they are striving to improve their situation so that such help will eventually no longer be needed. That is why the church welfare system works the way it does- those who request and need help from the church work on a budget with their bishop and present a plan for how they will help themselves out of their situation. Help is provided as long as they continue to show effort and progress, and they are often asked to do some form of service for the church in return for the help.

Now, the important thing right now is getting you and your wife on the same page as far as assisting her brother is concerned. If you just tell her that she shouldn't be helping him and/or refuse to let her use your hard-earned money to help him, you are going to be creating and/or deepening a rift in your relationship. Offer an idea similar to how the church welfare system works and see if you can get your wife to agree with it. Hold her brother to it, and if he fails to follow through, as you predict he will, help your wife stay strong in refusing to further aid him in a loving and supportive way.

My parents are going through a similar struggle with helping my brother. He has been very irresponsible with his time and money and my mother, driven by her love and desire to "save the day", keeps bailing him out of his troubles. My father is getting fed up with it, and they recently had a very serious argument in which my father finally drew a line- telling my mother that she needed to choose between her marriage or helping her son- trying to open her eyes to the serious damage this is causing their relationship. She has a very hard time letting go and offering "tough love" when it is needed.

They are working on drawing lines and limits, and my brother's situation does seem to be slowly improving, but it has been a very difficult and bumpy road that would have been easier on everyone if my mother had been strong enough to set limits in the first place, just say no when it was too much, and held my brother to a requirement for improvement. This has been going on for several years now, and any sign of progress has been very slow.

I know of some others who have been sucked into situations where they've tried to help others out of their problems by paying off debts or in other ways "enabling" them to continue with the irresponsible behavior, and they've ended up in just as dire straights as those they were trying to help because they failed to set limits. This happened to me too- I ended up on academic probation with college, losing my job, and in a slew of debt because I tried to help someone who really just wanted to stay in his rut and suck all the help they could get out of whomever he could so that he wouldn't have to "grow up". I learned my lesson the hard way, and had the chance to learn a better way when I sought assistance from the church to help get me out of the mess I'd pulled myself into.

I hope you and your wife can work together in coming to an agreement on how much help is allowed and what steps her brother should take to keep receiving help, so that you don't also have to learn the hard way. It will be hardest for your wife, because she loves her brother and love often makes it hard to see that sometimes NOT helping is the better way, as such will not only protect you from falling into a pit but will permit the consequences to teach her brother how to be more responsible.

[Just_8Guy]

This is what I see as well JudoMinja. If you constantly bail someone out of their problems and not let them face the pain and consequences of their irresponsible behavior they will never learn. Give it another six months and he will very likely be gambling again and end up in the same situation.

I like her brother but I do not want to enable someone to continue sinful and destructive behavior. This same person has run out of gasoline about 10 times since I have known him and calls his family to come give him gasoline. I say make him walk to the nearest gas station. I do not know why his family wants to enable his irresponsible behavior. Let him become a man who is able to support himself.

[JudoMinja]

I know it's a Parenting book for help with little kids, but your post here makes me think of "Love and Logic: Magic for Early Childhood". In the book, some parenting stereotypes are described that can cause problems, especially once children get older. One of those stereotypes is the "helicopter" parents who hover over their children, trying to prevent every hurt and rushing in to help when something happens. "Enabling" is a behavior of a "helicopter" parent who has never stopped hovering, even after their child has become an adult.

I do not know why his family wants to enable his irresponsible behavior.

It will really help you communicate with your wife about this if you find the answer to this question. It sounds like your parents raised you with "love and logic", so it is easier for you to see that pain and suffering are often necessary for learning. If we suffer consequences for our little mistakes as children, we learn from them and are less likely to make big mistakes as adults. However, it sounds like your wife's parents were "helicopter" parents, and because her brother never learned from small mistakes, he continues to make bigger and bigger mistakes.

I highly recommend reading "Love and Logic: Magic for Early Childhood"- especially the chapter about different parenting styles, so you can better understand where your wife and her family are coming from. It may also help your wife to read it, as she will recognize it when she reads it and may be more open to pulling back the aid. It's a very simple book- extremely easy to read and amazingly straight forward and to the point. It's the kind of book that makes you feel like "well, duh- why didn't I think of that? It's so simple!".

Remember, the important thing isn't to be right and find people who agree you are right. The important thing is learning to effectively communicate and come to agreements with your wife- so reading this book would be a big help, as it would help the two of you better understand your different backgrounds and be more likely to find a good solution/compromise for how to handle this situation with her brother.

[NeuroTypical]

I told her he needs to

Yeah, in my experience, whether you're right or you're wrong, sentences that start that way tend to never lead anywhere happy.

If it's your wife's money, she's free to do whatever she wants with it - even if it is enabling her brother's bad behavior. If it's family money, then you should have a say in it, and this issue is more about your relationship with your wife than about her brother.

[Martain]

Not being married myself, this makes me wonder what type of similar issues I might run into once I am.

It sounds like you and your wife need to sit down in council and decide how you will deal with such situations both now and in the future before it happens again.

I don't know how applicable it will be nor whether or not it will actually work in practice but should I run into such situations I have a plan I'd like to try.

Before it becomes an issue I hope to sit down with my future wife and discuss lending/donating family funds. Knowing how volatile financial situations can be I'll see if we can't agree ahead of time on a course of action.

My plan is to say that such decisions must be made unanimously. That should one of us feel uncomfortable, the other will respect such feelings. How do we know but that such feelings of discomfort are guidance from the Lord?

We would agree ahead of time that at that point it would be best for both to seek the Lord for guidance as to what should be done but that ultimately it is up to the one wanting to give to receive such guidance. Should such be obtained they would then wait patiently for the other to receive it.

I recognize that it doesn't matter whether or not the Lord witnesses to me that it would be good for me to marry a specific individual if she doesn't receive the same in return for me. If she either unwilling to try to get such an answer or doesn't get such an answer, the answer is still no.

Likewise we'd agree in advance that should the individual uncomfortable with the loan/charity not receive similar confirmation then out of respect, the decision is still no.

Of course there would be exceptions and we'd try to spell some of them out in advance. Of course we'd know that the plan wouldn't work for every situation and that it wouldn't always apply. Of course I expect that there would probably be some changes made over the years as experience teaches us how best to make such things work but I'm hoping that if I take such a course perhaps I can prevent myself from going through what you're going through.

What do others thing? Do you think such an approach would be a workable solution?

[mrmarklin]

I think how you feel about it is correct. But you are in a tough position. If you completely forbid the lending of the money, how does that affect your relationship with your wife? She feels some loyalty to her brother as well.

If it was me, I could care less how my prohibition would affect my relationship with my wife.

What is going on is the heart of any relationship, and is a deal breaker in my book.

[HEthePrimate]

Part of it depends on how you two have agreed to handle your finances. If the arrangement is that every major financial decision be mutually agreed upon, then your DW should have counseled with you about this first. However, if you have agreed that each of you can unilaterally make financial decisions, within reason, then maybe she is within her rights. Some couples basically allocate a certain amount (hopefully equal) of money that each can spend without asking the other, and if you two have that arrangement, then your wife can spend "her" money how she pleases, even if you don't agree with it. But I don't know what your situation is.

In any case, I agree with you that it's foolish to keep lending money to a compulsive gambler, at least if he doesn't pay you back. Maybe once or twice, but not on a continuing basis. And yes, your BIL needs to address his addiction.

It is normal, and actually kind of touching, that your wife loves her brother enough to try to help him. But some ways of helping are better than others. Sometimes bailing someone out is the right thing to do--Christ did that for us. Sometimes saying "enough is enough" is the right thing to do.

Good luck, my friend.

[FunkyTown]

My wife and I have a great set of finances:

We have her spending money in one account, my spending money in another account and the 'Pot' in another account.

If it were my wife and she wanted to lend to someone, I'd just say "Yeah, no problem. Just lend it from your spending money. I have no control over that. From our house and emergency budget, though? I'm afraid I can't do that. I want us to have a home one day and we're currently on budget for that. Lending $1000 would take away from that. It's more important that we're prepared for our future - For any emergencies of our own - Than it is that we bail your brother out a second time from gambling debts he incurred himself.'

[jayanna]

Yep, sounds like there is a pattern working here, especially if she has already lent the money before speaking with you about it.

Maybe could he work it off? Maybe do some repairs or maintenance around your home to work off the money he owes you?

I think Funkytown had a good idea there with the division of funds.

[clevermoniker]

People often say that they don't make any financial decision without both agreeing on it, but it's rarely true. If you forbid her from giving him the money, that's you making the decision all on your own. You may justify this by saying that her brother needs to learn a lesson and be responsible for his own choices, but perhaps your wife needs the same thing.

If my wife felt that she needed to help her brother, and it was easily within my power to do so, I would do it. I love my wife, and I trust her judgement.

[FunkyTown]

If my wife felt that she needed to help her brother, and it was easily within my power to do so, I would do it. I love my wife, and I trust her judgement.

So just so I can clarify here:

If your wife wanted to give money to someone who:

A) Hadn't paid back another loan fully that you had given him and;

B) Continued to gamble and rack up more debts while still owing money to you, thus necessitating a further bailout.

You would just do it? It sounds like the OPs wife is feeling guilty because her brother got in trouble and she feels responsible. You're suggesting he just toss more money to someone who continues gambling despite having debt to him, thus showing he has no sense of responsibility about money?

[clevermoniker]

So just so I can clarify here:

If your wife wanted to give money to someone who:

A) Hadn't paid back another loan fully that you had given him and;

B) Continued to gamble and rack up more debts while still owing money to you, thus necessitating a further bailout.

You would just do it? It sounds like the OPs wife is feeling guilty because her brother got in trouble and she feels responsible. You're suggesting he just toss more money to someone who continues gambling despite having debt to him, thus showing he has no sense of responsibility about money?

I'm saying that I would advise against it, and leave the decision up to her. Bringing the hammer down and forbidding your wife from making decisions on her own is rarely the right decision.

[Guest]

I'm saying that I would advise against it, and leave the decision up to her. Bringing the hammer down and forbidding your wife from making decisions on her own is rarely the right decision.

If my husband would leave me to my own stupid decisions we'd be up a creek without a paddle right now.

Unless you have the financial arrangement that Funky has that protects the family from individual choices, you can't leave your wife to make bad decisions regarding your family's finances... or anything else for that matter.

But yes, "forbidding" is not a good way to look at it. When my husband tells me No, I don't see it as "forbidding". I see it as, he knows better about our financial health than I do, so I get to defer to his better judgement.

[clevermoniker]

If my husband would leave me to my own stupid decisions we'd be up a creek without a paddle right now.

Unless you have the financial arrangement that Funky has that protects the family from individual choices, you can't leave your wife to make bad decisions regarding your family's finances... or anything else for that matter.

But yes, "forbidding" is not a good way to look at it. When my husband tells me No, I don't see it as "forbidding". I see it as, he knows better about our financial health than I do, so I get to defer to his better judgement.

If your husband says No, and doesn't let you do something, that is "Forbidding", regardless of how you want to paint it. Apparently you are fine with mindlessly submitting to his will because for whatever reason you've been convinced that you're not smart enough to make financial decisions, but that certainly doesn't mean that all women are in the same boat as you.

[Guest tomgat]

hi

i have helped out some of her other family in the past. I have no problem with lending money for situation like unemployment that is not your fault. I do have a problem with enabling destructive behavior.

Edited March 3, 2012 by estradling75

[Echo2002]

It sounds like you and your wife need to seek counseling about this matter. I say if it is HER money then she can do what she pleases with it, but if it is money the both of you have saved up then she doesn't have a right to just decide to give it to him without you agreeing with it.

I agree with you, her brother is just going to keep gambling and asking for help when he gets into trouble. At least he paid most of the other money back.

[FairChild]

Could you lend the money with certain strings attached to it? Such as so many minimum Gambler's Anonymous meetings or that a payment plan be put into place?

[FairChild]

Or you could even call Gambler's Anonymous to find out what they would suggest.

[FunkyTown]

If your husband says No, and doesn't let you do something, that is "Forbidding", regardless of how you want to paint it. Apparently you are fine with mindlessly submitting to his will because for whatever reason you've been convinced that you're not smart enough to make financial decisions, but that certainly doesn't mean that all women are in the same boat as you.

That's utterly ridiculous.

With communal money, the default is 'No' regardless of the sex of the spouse. If I wanted to buy a house with communal money and my wife didn't want that particular house, I couldn't just run out and buy the house.

Conversely, if my wife wanted to buy a new car with communal funds and I said 'No', she couldn't just rush out and buy it either.

With communal funds, both parties have to agree or it doesn't get spent. Period.

[Guest]

If your husband says No, and doesn't let you do something, that is "Forbidding", regardless of how you want to paint it. Apparently you are fine with mindlessly submitting to his will because for whatever reason you've been convinced that you're not smart enough to make financial decisions, but that certainly doesn't mean that all women are in the same boat as you.

Clever, we're not in the 1800's anymore. "No" doesn't mean "Forbid". I am super smart and can make financial decisions as well. But, here's the scenario - the husband said No, I said Yes. So, you're saying, because my husband said No, then HE's the stupid one?

Funky said it best. In communal finance, NO wins. Regardless of who is wrong or who is right. To spend communal money - both people need to be able to sit down and discuss it until both say Yes. In my case, I defer to my husband's No because I trust his judgement more than mine. I'm the type of person that can spend $1,000 in 15 minutes at a shoe store and feel good about it. No, that doesn't make me stupid. In the case of the OP where you have a wife who doesn't see the problem of loaning a gambling addict money, the husband has the better judgment. No, that doesn't make the wife stupid either.