Council in Heaven

[bytebear]

I think the thirds are 1) Sons of Perdition, 2) the Noble and Great Ones, 3) everyone else.

Abraham 3:22

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

[Traveler]

I think the thirds are 1) Sons of Perdition, 2) the Noble and Great Ones, 3) everyone else.

Abraham 3:22

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

The 3 parts spoken of for the resurrection are:

1. Celestial Kingdom

2. Terrestrial Kingdom

3. Telestial Kingdom

Do not confuse those that belong to the kingdom of G-d in the pre-existance with those that come to earth and finally to the resurrection. Although there are blessings that carry over from one to the other - those that comprize each individual catagory are not of necessity the exact same. For example - the 3rd catagory in the pre-existance that followed Lucifer are not inclusive in the divisions of mankind in mortality.

The Traveler

[bytebear]

The 3 parts spoken of for the resurrection are:

1. Celestial Kingdom

2. Terrestrial Kingdom

3. Telestial Kingdom

Do not confuse those that belong to the kingdom of G-d in the pre-existance with those that come to earth and finally to the resurrection. Although there are blessings that carry over from one to the other - those that comprize each individual catagory are not of necessity the exact same. For example - the 3rd catagory in the pre-existance that followed Lucifer are not inclusive in the divisions of mankind in mortality.

The Traveler

The degrees of glory and the thirds of the pre-existence are completely separate. The fact is, in the pre-existence there was for-ordination, meaning certain people were ordained to be God's chosen leaders prior to their birth. They were set apart from others in the pre-existence. We know that Michael was chosen to be Adam, the first man. We know that Jeremiah was ordained in the pre-existence.

Foreordination

[Scovy]

Don't forget that everyone that has or will come to this earth made a decision to Gods Plan, no matter their outcome on this earth they will get a reward in Heaven for making this choice. Murders and evil people were valiant in the past life but let evil come into their lives and ruined their chances of celestial glory.

The notion that there was fence sitters or a certain color of people were less valiant is a very false doctrine that was told in the 1st edition of Mormon Doctrine which has since been corrected.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Two of the divided parts are identified specifically in scripture. They are the one part that followed Lucifer and the other part is identified in the Book of Abraham as "The Noble and Great) - or as in Alma 13 - those that exercised great faith. Alma indirectly identifies the final part as those that did not exercise great faith (what-ever that means).

The Traveler

Traveler,

I agree with the general concept of various levels of faith shown in the pre-mortal world but I think we have to be careful to not suggest that "did not exercise great faith" means that they showed no faith at all. I think there is a potential for people to misinterpret that statement even though that is not how you probably intended it.

Just to attempt to clarify that .... those people simply showed less than "exceedingly great faith" and so they could have shown "great faith". This is a matter of semantics but the Chapter in Alma does not say that those people who were not forordained did not show any faith at all, they could have very well shown "great faith" and therefore did not show "exceedingly great faith".

Certainly, anyone who kept their first estate, which is everyone here had to show some faith. President Ezra Taft Benson said; "I testify that all those who come into mortality accepted our Father’s plan. (See Abr. 3:26.) Having proved faithful in their first estate in heaven, they are now subject to the test of mortality in this second estate. That test entails doing all things whatsoever the Lord requires. (See Abr. 3:25.)" So, according to a prophet, everyone here has proven themselves faithful in the pre-mortal life.

The chapter is about forordination, which was done "according to the foreknowledge of God" (Alma 13:3). So the forordination is based on the foreknowledge of God, based in the "exceeding" (=greater than average amount of faith) faithfulness thus far exhibited. In other words, the forordination is based in God's knowledge of how a certain man would act in this world if put in this situation, that they would have enough faith to accept and use that power.

Whereas the ones that were not forordained "would reject the Spirit of God" (Alma 13:4) and so they were not given the forordination according to God's foreknowledge based in their thus far exhibited, presumably less than exceeding level of faith. The "would" is a future tense and again based in the foreknowledge of God. That when in this situation for which we are talking about, mortal existence, they "would" not show faith. It is not saying that they did not show faith at that point but that they would not in the future tense in the setting for which the chapter is talking about, the callings given here in this life. For that reason, they were not forordained to such callings.

[Convert55]

I find the subject of pre-mortal life and the council in heaven very interesting. I agree with the quote given by Seminarysnoozer :

President Ezra Taft Benson said; "I testify that all those who come into mortality accepted our Father’s plan.

What is there… 7 billion people on the earth today? It makes me wonder how in the world you could ever get even 10 or 20 people to agree on any subject with eternal implications and consequences let alone 7 billion and more. Somehow they all had to be satisfied.

Let’s take for example a hypothetical situation with premises/assumptions that we know are flawed which is OK because we will throw out the hypothetical when we are done playing with it. [hypothetical] Let’s say that my (1)great, (2)great..(N)great grandfather knew he would be coming to earth when the gospel was not here on the earth or at least no authored servant would be in his area. He also knew at least that he had to be born of the water and the spirit or he could not enter the kingdom of God. [/hypothetical]

Now, what is it going to take to get him to agree to come to earth at the time and place offered him in this situation?

Acts tells us that Paul taught that God new the times and places we would be born. See: Acts 17:26*

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

To extrapolate that we knew when and where we would be born in the pre-mortal life goes beyond the scope of that scripture, but it remains within the realm of possibility.

In 1979 Bruce R. McConke’s understanding of the Council in Heaven went something like this: “There were many meetings, conferences, councils, and schoolings sessions held [for God’s offspring] in [the] pre-existence. Among other things, at these various assemblages, plans were made for the creation and peopling of this earth and for the redemption and salvation of the offspring of Deity. The spirit children of the Father were then taught the terms and conditions of the plan of salvation and were given opportunity to accept or reject the Father’s proposals. (Mormon Doctrine pg 163)

I cannot comprehend 7 billion or 7 billion people. I can comprehend an ancestor. I can throw out the hypothetical which was only used to focus my mind on the difficulty of getting at least one person to agree to come at a certain time and place. I am still left with the question “How in the world…?”

The answer would be delightful to know, and someday we will know. I offer as part of the answer D&C 128:18 Scriptures Search Results

After talking about the welding link and baptism for the dead Joseph Smiths states “ For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect.”

I think that this doctrine has some teeth in it. I think that if my ancestor knew this, he/she would be more apt to agree to come in a time and at a place where they couldn’t be availed the necessary ordinances.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Convert55

[Misshalfway]

I never really thought about the "group" in the pre-earth life as being divided into thirds. We were taught that 1/3 part rebelled and lost their first estate, but in my mind this refers to two parts. A bigger part and a smaller part.

Plus, I've always been turned off by discussions concerning 'classes' of the righteous based upon lineage. I know lots of people have connected some dots and maybe there is some truth to the fact that our life here was somewhat determined by the life there, but most of the time I don't think any of it matters.

[circusboy01]

I never really thought about the "group" in the pre-earth life as being divided into thirds. We were taught that 1/3 part rebelled and lost their first estate, but in my mind this refers to two parts. A bigger part and a smaller part.

Plus, I've always been turned off by discussions concerning 'classes' of the righteous based upon lineage. I know lots of people have connected some dots and maybe there is some truth to the fact that our life here was somewhat determined by the life there, but most of the time I don't think any of it matters.

I tend to agree with you. Let's say there are 1000 spirits,or Hosts in Heaven 1/3 of them would be 3331/3 But it's supposed to be 1/3 part, not 1/3. Anything other than 333 1/3 would be mathematically different. I men you don't take 666 2/3 which would be 2/3 of the Hosts of Heaven and call it 1/3 That would mean that the actual 1/3 that is left would have to be divided in half so there would be 3 parts. How did (who ever it was) arrive at the idea that 1/3 part was different than 1/3 If something is divided into 3 equal parts they are divided into thirds. Any amount over 333 1/3 would not be a third. Any amount under 333 1/3, would not be 1/3

Now. If the 1/3 part, being different than 1/3 logic comes from the General Authorities, The Quorum of the Twelve, or The First Presidency. Kindly disregard this post:D

Brother Ray

Edited July 12, 2012 by circusboy01

[Seminarysnoozer]

I tend to agree with you. Let's say there are 1000 spirits,or Hosts in Heaven 1/3 of them would be 3331/3 But it's supposed to be 1/3 part, not 1/3. Anything other than 333 1/3 would be mathematically different. I men you don't take 666 2/3 which would be 2/3 of the Hosts of Heaven and call it 1/3 That would mean that the actual 1/3 that is left would have to be divided in half so there would be 3 parts. How did (who ever it was) arrive at the idea that 1/3 part was different than 1/3 If something is divided into 3 equal parts they are divided into thirds. Any amount over 333 1/3 would not be a third. Any amount under 333 1/3, would not be 1/3

Now. If the 1/3 part, being different than 1/3 logic comes from the General Authorities, The Quorum of the Twelve, or The First Presidency. Kindly disregard this post:D

Brother Ray

It may be said that way because the other parts were not yet established or divided. For example, the three parts may be;

1. Those that don't keep their first estate.

2. Those that keep their first estate but not their second.

3. Those that keep both their first and second estate.

In that case, the only group that separated themselves from the rest was 1 out of 3 parts in the pre-mortal world. The other 2 parts have not yet distinguished themselves as the second estate opportunity had not yet taken place. The noble and great ones who showed exceedingly great faith may be more likely to be in group 3 but then again many are called but few are chosen. There are some that would have been known ahead of time that would fall into group 3 which are those that die before the age of 8 or here have bodies that don't allow for moral agency.

In this kind of separation; group 1 would be those who followed Satan, group 2 would include both the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms and group 3 would be the Celestial Kingdom. Within those groups though, their are many levels and many "Mansions". To really "part" something though would entail something that is irreversible. To be cast out is irreversible and therefore can be parted out. Whether or not one keeps their first estate or their second estate is an irreversible fact that would not change in the eternities and therefore could be a dividing point between the hosts of heaven.

[circusboy01]

It may be said that way because the other parts were not yet established or divided. For example, the three parts may be;

1. Those that don't keep their first estate.

2. Those that keep their first estate but not their second.

3. Those that keep both their first and second estate.

In that case, the only group that separated themselves from the rest was 1 out of 3 parts in the pre-mortal world. The other 2 parts have not yet distinguished themselves as the second estate opportunity had not yet taken place. The noble and great ones who showed exceedingly great faith may be more likely to be in group 3 but then again many are called but few are chosen. There are some that would have been known ahead of time that would fall into group 3 which are those that die before the age of 8 or here have bodies that don't allow for moral agency.

In this kind of separation; group 1 would be those who followed Satan, group 2 would include both the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms and group 3 would be the Celestial Kingdom. Within those groups though, their are many levels and many "Mansions". To really "part" something though would entail something that is irreversible. To be cast out is irreversible and therefore can be parted out. Whether or not one keeps their first estate or their second estate is an irreversible fact that would not change in the eternities and therefore could be a dividing point between the hosts of heaven.

Okay. So 1/3 part is not talking numbers. If it where my post would be correct. Instead it is talking about 3 different groups of people. Perhaps separated by how valiant they were/are.

So am I even close to understanding? Brother Ray

[Vort]

Ray, we don't know what "the (or a) third part" meant. It might mean the fraction 1/3, as in 33.3333%. Or it might mean the spirits were divided into three (possibly unequally sized) camps. Or maybe it means something completely different.

[circusboy01]

Ray, we don't know what "the (or a) third part" meant. It might mean the fraction 1/3, as in 33.3333%. Or it might mean the spirits were divided into three (possibly unequally sized) camps. Or maybe it means something completely different.

Well. Heck. If I can't get a straight answer, I'm just gonna stop asking!

[Vort]

Well. Heck. If I can't get a straight answer, I'm just gonna stop asking!

Nothing wrong with asking questions, as long as you realize and acknowledge that you might not be able to get a good answer.

[circusboy01]

Nothing wrong with asking questions, as long as you realize and acknowledge that you might not be able to get a good answer.

You do realize that I was joking don't you:confused: That's why I added the Laughing Smiley

Face. Brother Ray

[Bensalem]

I understand what you're saying. But I'm confused. 1/3 part would mean that there were 2 parts left. I know there was us, and the ones that sided with Lucifer. That's 2 parts What was the other part?

I look at the two parts remaining as one part male and one part female. I'm not sure if there is any church doctrine to support that point of view.

[Bensalem]

It may help you to understand that anciently math theory only included whole numbers and that fractions were not understood or used. When the scriptures say - a one third part - this implies a division into three parts.

It may be interesting to note that following the flood that the children of men were divided (as we were in heaven) into 3 parts as symbolically represented in the three sons of Noah (Shem, Japheth, and Ham). Also that the children of men will again be divided into three parts in the resurrection.

Two of the divided parts are identified specifically in scripture. They are the one part that followed Lucifer and the other part is identified in the Book of Abraham as "The Noble and Great) - or as in Alma 13 - those that exercised great faith. Alma indirectly identifies the final part as those that did not exercise great faith (what-ever that means).

One thing we should not do is attempt to identify (especially by race) anyone on earth that we think belongs in the not so much faith category.

The Traveler

We also have the three kingdoms of heaven, Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. And there are three parts in the Celestial.

[Traveler]

I never really thought about the "group" in the pre-earth life as being divided into thirds. We were taught that 1/3 part rebelled and lost their first estate, but in my mind this refers to two parts. A bigger part and a smaller part.

Plus, I've always been turned off by discussions concerning 'classes' of the righteous based upon lineage. I know lots of people have connected some dots and maybe there is some truth to the fact that our life here was somewhat determined by the life there, but most of the time I don't think any of it matters.

The ancient Hebrews did not understand fractions - in fact very few in the ancient world understood fractions and the only numbers referenced were integer or counting numbers. Thus the heavens were divided into three parts - not two. There is nothing to indicate in scripture that any part was bigger, smaller or equal to the others.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I find the subject of pre-mortal life and the council in heaven very interesting. I agree with the quote given by Seminarysnoozer :

What is there… 7 billion people on the earth today? It makes me wonder how in the world you could ever get even 10 or 20 people to agree on any subject with eternal implications and consequences let alone 7 billion and more. Somehow they all had to be satisfied.

Let’s take for example a hypothetical situation with premises/assumptions that we know are flawed which is OK because we will throw out the hypothetical when we are done playing with it. [hypothetical] Let’s say that my (1)great, (2)great..(N)great grandfather knew he would be coming to earth when the gospel was not here on the earth or at least no authored servant would be in his area. He also knew at least that he had to be born of the water and the spirit or he could not enter the kingdom of God. [/hypothetical]

Now, what is it going to take to get him to agree to come to earth at the time and place offered him in this situation?

Acts tells us that Paul taught that God new the times and places we would be born. See: Acts 17:26*

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

To extrapolate that we knew when and where we would be born in the pre-mortal life goes beyond the scope of that scripture, but it remains within the realm of possibility.

In 1979 Bruce R. McConke’s understanding of the Council in Heaven went something like this: “There were many meetings, conferences, councils, and schoolings sessions held [for God’s offspring] in [the] pre-existence. Among other things, at these various assemblages, plans were made for the creation and peopling of this earth and for the redemption and salvation of the offspring of Deity. The spirit children of the Father were then taught the terms and conditions of the plan of salvation and were given opportunity to accept or reject the Father’s proposals. (Mormon Doctrine pg 163)

I cannot comprehend 7 billion or 7 billion people. I can comprehend an ancestor. I can throw out the hypothetical which was only used to focus my mind on the difficulty of getting at least one person to agree to come at a certain time and place. I am still left with the question “How in the world…?”

The answer would be delightful to know, and someday we will know. I offer as part of the answer D&C 128:18 Scriptures Search Results

After talking about the welding link and baptism for the dead Joseph Smiths states “ For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect.”

I think that this doctrine has some teeth in it. I think that if my ancestor knew this, he/she would be more apt to agree to come in a time and at a place where they couldn’t be availed the necessary ordinances.

Seeing that you believe G-d had access and knew things - have you considered that for those that lived in his presents that they also knew those things. Or do you believe G-d is of the type to hide such things from us. I personally believe that to so deceive us concerning our life here as to keep the knowledge concerning us as individuals from us would be contrary to agency and allowing man to have “free” will.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I cannot comprehend 7 billion or 7 billion people. I can comprehend an ancestor. I can throw out the hypothetical which was only used to focus my mind on the difficulty of getting at least one person to agree to come at a certain time and place. I am still left with the question “How in the world…?”

The answer would be delightful to know, and someday we will know. I offer as part of the answer D&C 128:18 Scriptures Search Results

After talking about the welding link and baptism for the dead Joseph Smiths states “ For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect.”

I think that this doctrine has some teeth in it. I think that if my ancestor knew this, he/she would be more apt to agree to come in a time and at a place where they couldn’t be availed the necessary ordinances.

We don't know the exact details of what were discussed in those councils in terms of our exact conditions, individually. But I am sure we had discussions in general about what would happen if we were born at a time without the gospel. We likely also had discussions about what would happen to those who died before the age of 8 or with diseases that would not allow for moral agency, etc. It may be more like a soldier enlisting in the Army. They are, for the most part, aware of the various possible circumstances they could be sent into and yet still sign up. I would have a hard time comprehending as well the possibility of us knowing every little detail of our life, like this person would be 5'8'' and have diabetes when they turn 65 and then develop arthritis and be assaulted with a knife when they were 70 and at the age of 80 die of a heart attack etc.

As we do with several of our covenants/promises we make with our Father in Heaven, we agree to do all the things we are asked, whatever they may be. I think our loving Heavenly Father knows the best place for the test we face in this life and takes all the variables into account even the ones that we had no ability to really comprehend their significance before this life. That is why the decision to keep our first estate had to be done with Faith. The decision was not totally a logical, 'what is best' decision. Those that lacked faith followed Satan because of their weak trust in God's decision, it was too much of a risk.

I like how President Holland puts it; "“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

“And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.” Revelations 12

So the fact of the matter is investigators are not only hearing our testimony of Christ, but they are hearing echoes of other, earlier testimonies, including their own testimony of Him, for they were on the side of the faithful who kept their first estate and earned the privilege of a second estate. We must always remember that these investigators, every man, woman, and child, were among the valiant who once overcame Satan by the power of their testimony of Christ! So when they hear others bear that witness of Christ’s saving mission, it has a familiar feeling; it brings an echo of truth they themselves already know."

They overcame the temptations of Satan in the premortal life by their "testimony of Christ" and they did it by not loving their "lives unto the death." In other words, they didn't love their life here that much, it didn't matter where they went, they didn't love it that much that they had to be picky about the details. They just wanted to come here by their faith in Christ. They, we all, knew that Christ would overcome everything.