Politics in Church arg

[mnn727]

Anatess

You remind me of the young idealist Perchik in Fiddler on the Roof seeing everything as political:

Perchik: There's a question... A certain question I want to discuss with you.

Hodel: Yes?

Perchik: It's a political question.

Hodel: What is it?

Perchik: The question of... marriage.

Hodel: Is this a political question?

Perchik: Well, yes. Yes, everything's political. Like everything else, the relationship between a man and a woman has a socioeconomic base. Marriage must be founded on mutual beliefs. A common attitude and philosophy towards society...

Sadly for both you and Perchik, everything is not political.

[Hala401]

As we sit here "skirtingly" talking about politics, I realise that I don't know a thing about current politics. I study history, and have developed my world view by reading written history, and through my foreign contacts. I know why people in Palestine see things the way they do, I understand some of the views of Saudi people through the eyes of a Muslim. I know LDS people who have worked in Saudia and their view of the place is very different from someone who is Muslim and has moved about there.

When it comes to knowing who to vote for president for, I don't have a clue. I don't trust the nay sayers on either side.

There is a guy who is running for Mayor here who I really like because of what he said in one 10 minute speech. I hate it that people will develop strong opinions about candidates based over the consumption of a few beers at the local pub. Good heavens, I hope that most of the electorate do a better job.

I joke about giving it all back to the Queen, because we have mucked it up into a sodding mess. Maybe I am not joking. I wish I had a husband to guide me.

[skalenfehl]

mnn722, I've already done that, personally speaking. I do not uphold current Republican or Democrat values.

Just a few quotes from our latter day prophets. I sincerely hope we read them all:

Joseph Smith who ran for the office of US President because of persecution:

"We have not enjoyed unmolested those rights which the constitution of the U.S.A. and our Charters grant."

"If there is trouble in the country, neither I nor my people made it, and all that we have ever done, after much endurance on our part, is to maintain and uphold the constitution and institutions of our country, and to protect an injured, innocent, and persecuted people against misrule and mob violence."

"Come, all ye lovers of liberty, break the oppressor’s rod, loose the iron grasp of mobocracy, and bring to condign punishment all those who trample under foot the glorious Constitution and the people’s rights."

"This people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction. Then shall the Lord say: Go tell my servants who are the strength of mine house, my young men and middle-aged, etc., Come to the land of my vineyard and fight the battle of the Lord. Then the Kings and Queens shall come, yea the foreign saints shall come to fight for the land of my vineyard, for in this thing shall be their safety and they will have no power to choose but will come as a man fleeth from a sudden destruction. I know these things by the visions of the Almighty."

"Even this Nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the Staff up [on] which the Nation shall lean and they shall bear the constitution away from the very verge of destruction."

Brigham Young:

"There never was a better constitution on the face of the earth than the constitution of the United States. There is nothing but the people of God could enjoy under it. But the Federal constitution is trodden under foot. All that I am afraid of is that the Elders of Israel will forget their God."

"Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, “The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.” It will be so."

"That people (the Latter-day Saints), whom the very great majority have striven to obliterate, will step forward and continue to honor the Heaven-inspired Constitution bequeathed to us so rich a legacy by our forefathers."

John Taylor:

"And while other men are seeking to trample the Constitution under foot, we will try to maintain it. We have prophecies something like this somewhere; that the time would come when this nation would do as they are now doing — that is, they would trample under foot the constitution and institutions of the nation, and the Elders of this Church would rally around the standard and maintain those principles which were introduced for the freedom and protection of men. We expect to do that, and to maintain all correct principle. I will tell you what you will see by and by. You will see trouble, trouble, trouble enough in these United States. . . . But let us be on the side of human liberty and human rights, and the protection of all correct principles and laws and government, and maintain every principle that is upright and virtuous and honorable, and let the world take the balance if they want, we don’t want it. We will cleave to the truth, God being our helper, and try to introduce principles whereby the will of God will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And we will obey every institution of man for the Lord’s sake so far as we can without violating our consciences and doing things that are wrong and improper."

"By and by, you will find they will tear the Constitution to shreads, as they have begun now; they won’t have to begin; they have started long ago to rend the Constitution of our country in pieces; and in doing so they are letting loose and encouraging a principle which will re-act upon themselves with terrible consequences; for if law-makers and administrators can afford to trample upon justice, equity, and the Constitution of this country, they will find thousands and tens of thousands who are willing to follow in their wake in the demolition of the rights of man, and the destruction of all principles of justice, and the safeguards of the nation; but we will stand by and maintain its principles and the rights of all men of every color, and every clime; we will cleave to the truth, live our religion and keep the commandments of God, and God will bless us in time and throughout the eternities that are to come."

"If our Constitution, our laws, and the fundamental principles of our Government are to be trampled underfoot, it would seem to be high time that all honorable men should stand up in defense of liberty and the rights of man."

Wilford Woodruff:

"I am going to bear my testimony to this assembly, if I never do it again in my life, that those men who laid the foundation of this American government and signed the Declaration of Independence were the best spirits the God of heaven could find on the face of the earth. They were choice spirits, not wicked men. General Washington and all the men that labored for the purpose were inspired of the Lord. Another thing I am going to say here, because I have a right to say it. Every one of those men that signed the Declaration of Independence, with General Washington, called upon me, as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Temple at St. George, two consecutive nights, and demanded at my hands that I should go forth and attend to the ordinances of the House of God for them. Would those spirits have called upon me, as an elder in Israel, to perform that work if they had not been noble spirits before God?"

"The Lord . . . has spoken concerning our Government and Constitution, and he has said — “Ye are justified in maintaining the Constitution and laws of the land, for they make you free, and the Gospel maketh you free; and you shall seek to sustain good and wise men for rulers, and whatsoever is more or less than this cometh of evil.” . . . The laws of Heaven command us not to uphold and sustain men, except they are good men, who will sustain the Constitution of our country; and we are fulfilling the revelations in this respect as in many others, and we are carrying out the requirements of the Constitution of the United States."

Lorenzo Snow:

"They will sustain the constitution and laws and institutions of the United States, and be the champions of liberty and of that constitution when its integrity shall be threatened."

"We trace the hand of the Almighty in framing the constitution of our land, and believe that the Lord raised up men purposely for the accomplishment of this object, raised them up and inspired them to frame the constitution of the United States."

Joseph F. Smith:

"It was part of the design of the Almighty when He influenced the fathers to leave the old world and come to this continent; He had a hand in the establishment of this government; He inspired the framers of the Constitution and the fathers of this nation to contend for their liberty."

"By revelation to Joseph Smith, the Prophet, the Lord declared that he had established the Constitution of the United States through “wise men raised up unto this very purpose” [D&C 101:80]. It is also our belief that God has blessed and prospered this nation, and given unto it power to enforce the divine decrees concerning the land of Zion, that free institutions might not perish from the earth. Cherishing such convictions, we have no place in our hearts for disloyal sentiments."

Heber J. Grant:

"We again warn our people in America of the constantly increasing threat against our inspired Constitution and our free institutions set up under it. The same political tenets and philosophies that have brought war and terror in other parts of the world are at work amongst us in America. The proponents thereof are seeking to undermine our own form of government and to set up instead one of the forms of dictatorships now flourishing in other lands. . . .Communism and all other similar isms bear no relationship whatever to the United Order. They are merely the clumsy counterfeits which Satan always devises of the gospel plan. . . . Latter-day Saints cannot be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies. They will prove snares to their feet."

"Sustain the constitution of the United States. The Lord himself has said that he raised up the very men who prepared it to the end that it might be an example to all the world. Do you believe it? If you do then sustain it and don’t let your voice be among those that shall deride and break down the things that are so important for us. This is our Father’s work. We are his children, heirs to all blessings."

George Albert Smith:

"The Lord raised up men to frame a Constitution for this nation because it was his nation. It was his desire that the people here would be blessed and there have been no people in all the world who have been more blessed than those who live in the United States of America.

We have every comfort that you can think of, every blessing that is enjoyed by people in any other nation, and then we have the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our conscience because the Lord himself made that provision in the Constitution of the United States and in the framing of the laws that govern this nation."

"It is your duty and mine to remember in our prayers the President of the United States of America, to remember the men who represent us in the Congress of the United States, to remember the executives of the states of the nation, and to pray for them that they may have divine aid. They are God’s sons, every one of them, and he wants them saved and exalted."

David O. McKay:

"Be true to the Constitution of the United States, to the Bill of Rights. Do not let any theories of immigrants or misguided politicians induce you to do anything that will deprive us of our liberties as vouchsafed by that immortal document."

"There are some fundamental principles of this Republic which, like eternal truths, never get out of date, and which are applicable at all times to liberty-loving peoples. Such are the underlying principles of the Constitution, a document framed by patriotic, freedom-loving men…True Americans should have nothing to do with secret combinations and groups antagonistic to the Constitutional law of the land."

"The Constitution of the United States, as given to us by our fathers, is the real government under which individuals may exercise free agency and individual initiative."

"Next to being one in worshiping God, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States!

May the appeal of our Lord in His intercessory prayer for unity be realized in our homes, our wards, and stakes, and in our support of the basic principles of our Republic."

Joseph Fielding Smith:

"Satan has control now. No matter where you look, he is in control, even in our own land. He is guiding the governments as far as the Lord will permit him. That is why there is so much strife, turmoil, confusion all over the earth. One master mind is governing the nations. It is not the President of the United States… it is not the king or government of England or any other land; it is Satan himself."

"Our duty is to keep the commandments of the Lord, to walk uprightly, to defend every principle of truth, to sustain and uphold the Constitution of this great country, to remember the Declaration of Independence, for, as we heard this morning from our President, upon these principles our country was based."

"I thought it would not be amiss or out of order to say something about the Constitution, to give a little history of it perhaps briefly; for I am convinced that the people generally of the United States have not studied it. Many of them have never read it, and some know nothing concerning what it is all about."

Harold B. Lee:

"To the membership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Constitution of the United States is as a tree of liberty under whose cooling branches one might find a haven from the scorching sun of turmoil and oppression and have his rights protected according to just and holy principles. To them, the Constitution was established by the hands of wise men whom God raised up for this very purpose, and they devoutly believe that if it should be in danger of being overthrown, their lives, if need be, are to be offered in defense of its principles. (See D&C 101:77–80.)"

"Our anxiety has been increased when we have listened to the attempts of men in high stations to stir up class hatreds that contradict the age-old constitutional guarantee of free enterprise."

"We urge members of the Church and all Americans to begin now to reflect more intently on the meaning and importance of the Constitution, and of adherence to its principles."

Spencer W. Kimball:

"We encourage all members, as citizens of the nation, to be actively involved in the political process, and to support those measures which will strengthen the community, state, and nation—morally, economically, and culturally."

"The only way we can keep our freedom is to work at it. Not some of us. All of us. Not some of the time, but all of the time.

So if you value your citizenship and you want to keep it for yourself and your children and their children, give it your faith, your belief, and give it your active support in civic affairs."

Ezra Taft Benson:

"On what basis can we morally resist tyranny?

I say to you with all the fervor of my soul that God intended men to be free. Rebellion against tyranny is a righteous cause. It is an enormous evil for any man to be enslaved to any system contrary to his own will. For that reason men, 200 years ago, pledged their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor.

No nation which has kept the commandments of God has ever perished, but I say to you that once freedom is lost, only blood – human blood – will win it back."

"I don’t know how you feel, my brethren and sisters, but I’d rather be dead than to lose my liberty. I have no fear we’ll ever lose it because of invasion from the outside. But I do have fear that it may slip away from us because of our own indifference, our own negligence, as citizens of this land. And so I plead with you this morning that you take an active interest in matters pertaining to the future of this country."

"I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. (See D&C 1:14–16; D&C 84:49–53.) It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world. (See Ether 8:18–25.)"

"The United States Constitution has been in existence longer than any written constitution in history. It has been a blessing, not only to our land, but to the world as well. Many nations have wisely adopted concepts and provisions of our Constitution, just as was prophesied (D&C 101:77)."

Gordon B. Hinckley:

"The Constitution under which we live, and which has not only blessed us but has become a model for other constitutions, is our God-inspired national safeguard ensuring freedom and liberty, justice and equality before the law...."

"[The Constitution] is the keystone of our nation. It is the guarantee of our liberty. That original document, with the Bill of Rights, constitutes the charter of our freedom. Through all of the years that have followed we have had some ambitious men who have sought to subvert the great principles of the Constitution, but somehow we have endured one crisis after another. We have been involved in terrible wars during this, the bloodiest of all centuries in the history of man. All of this is part of the miracle that is America, the struggle, the travail, the bitterness, the jealousies, the cynicism, and the criticism. But beyond and above it all is the wonder of a nation that for more than two centuries has remained free and independent and strong, the envy of the world, the hope of the world, the protection of free men everywhere, the manifestation of the power of the Almighty."

Thomas S. Monson:

"In harmony with our belief that the U.S. Constitution is an inspired document and that America has a special mission,” President Monson said, “the Deseret News will defend and promote the principles of the Constitution and the great freedoms for which the nation stands; indeed, it will promote the free agency of all mankind. We view ourselves as being not just in the newspaper business but in the communication business. As technology or public preferences change, our methods of communication may change, but at all times ours shall be a voice for the principles of our owner, for the canons of responsible journalism and for all other righteous and compatible interests and causes."

There are many more quotes where these came from.

[annewandering]

This is the time when we as LDS should be valiant and stalwart in upholding the US Constitution. All that evil requires to flourish is for good men to do nothing. David O. McKay said:

"Next to being one in worshiping God, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States! May the appeal of our Lord in His intercessory prayer for unity be realized in our homes, our wards, and stakes, and in our support of the basic principles of our Republic."

Politics ought to have a very big place within each of us. The Lord said, “Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land” (D&C 98:6).

In General Conference, our prophet, Ezra Taft Benson said (this is only a small part) the following:

How then can we best befriend the Constitution in this critical hour and secure the blessings of liberty and ensure the protection and guidance of our Father in Heaven?

First and foremost, we must be righteous.

John Adams said, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” (The Works of John Adams, ed. C. F. Adams, Boston: Little, Brown Co., 1851, 4:31). If the Constitution is to have continuance, this American nation, and especially the Latter-day Saints, must be virtuous.

The Book of Mormon warns us relative to our living in this free land: “Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever” (2 Ne. 1:7).

“And now,” warned Moroni, “we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity” (Ether 2:9).

Two great American Christian civilizations—the Jaredites and the Nephites—were swept off this land because they did not “serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ” (Ether 2:12). What will become of our civilization?

Second, we must learn the principles of the Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers.

Have we read The Federalist papers? Are we reading the Constitution and pondering it? Are we aware of its principles? Are we abiding by these principles and teaching them to others? Could we defend the Constitution? Can we recognize when a law is constitutionally unsound? Do we know what the prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it?

As Jefferson said, “If a nation expects to be ignorant and free … it expects what never was and never will be” (Letter to Colonel Charles Yancey, 6 Jan. 1816).

Third, we must become involved in civic affairs to see that we are properly represented.

The Lord said that “he holds men accountable for their acts in relation” to governments “both in making laws and administering them” (D&C 134:1). We must follow this counsel from the Lord: “Honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil” (D&C 98:10).

Note the qualities that the Lord demands of those who are to represent us. They must be good, wise, and honest.

Fourth, we must make our influence felt by our vote, our letters, our teaching, and our advice.

We must become accurately informed and then let others know how we feel. The Prophet Joseph Smith said: “It is our duty to concentrate all our influence to make popular that which is sound and good, and unpopular that which is unsound. ‘Tis right, politically, for a man who has influence to use it. … From henceforth I will maintain all the influence I can get” (History of the Church, 5:286).

Without politics, without making a stand, we may be strong in our faith for a time, but it won't last long if we allow our right and our freedom to worship according our faith be denied and destroyed. And our children will suffer for it and their children will suffer for it.

I guess I am bad for wanting to do what we have been told by the GA in SL.

Dont quote ELDER Benson stuff at me.

AND dont TELL me how I have to believe you are the one that knows exactly what God would have us do in politics and then want to inform me of that in church. I am not in church to hear your rants and inuendos slamming my opinons as being satanic. Oh yes I have heard you and your ilk too many times. Back off. The Word of Wisdom warns us to not partake of TEA and I believe its the Word of God.

[skalenfehl]

Forgive me. It was not my intention to cause contention. These are not my words. They are all words from our prophets from Joseph Smith through Thomas Monson and from the lips of our own God of Israel as coming from D&C. I uphold and sustain them and their authority and as such am furthering their cause.

[Wingnut]

I love King Benjamin. I named a child after him.

You have a child named King?

(Just trying to lighten things up a little.)

[Misshalfway]

I seriously believe you do think that, anatess and that is the problem, in my opinion. God is NOT all over politics. He is about us loving Him and loving His children, our siblings. He is NOT about who gets elected, providing they are decent people and dont interfere with His Gospel.

I love King Benjamin. I named a child after him. I do not read about him and what he taught to see what his politics are/were.

So are you saying that the love of God shouldn't be applied in politics? That the love of God has no place there because that is where people fight? Seems to me we need MORE of the love of God and His influence in politics. Perhaps now more than ever.

I DO read Kind Benj to see what his politics were. He was one of the few kings who had a correct vision. If only we had more leaders with views like that. Can you imagine what congress would be like if they actually "served" the country like King Ben? Talk about a radical concept!

Edited June 27, 2012 by Misshalfway

[Dravin]

You have a child named King?

(Just trying to lighten things up a little.)

Bonus points if her last name is Salmon.

[skalenfehl]

So are you saying that the love of God shouldn't be applied in politics? That the love of God has no place there because that is where people fight? Seems to me we need MORE of the love of God and His influence in politics. Perhaps now more than ever.

I DO read Kind Benj to see what his politics were. He was one of the few kings who had a correct vision. If only we had more leaders with views like that. Can you imagine what congress would be like if they actually "served" the country like King Ben? Talk about a radical concept!

He was a great example to his son Mosiah who was the last king of the Nephites before instituting the reign of the judges in favor of creating a land of liberty where each man was accountable for his own choices rather than their kings and leaders taking upon themselves that mantle. The century thereafter was the greatest in Nephite history with both great and terrible events resulting, which is one of the primary reasons Mormon included it for the Gentiles in the latter days (that would be all of us) so that we could learn from their mistakes and not follow in their footsteps. Alas Moroni also saw our day and knew precisely that we would fall into the exact same pitfalls. We have been involved in these politics since the war in heaven and it's all about liberty and agency.

Edited June 27, 2012 by skalenfehl

[Wingnut]

Bonus points if her last name is Salmon.

Or Crab. With a middle name of Fisher.

[Sicily510]

Skalenfehl, your basically saying that Zion is still going to consist of a political government?

[skalenfehl]

Isaiah 9

5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

[Guest]

Anatess

You remind me of the young idealist Perchik in Fiddler on the Roof seeing everything as political:

Sadly for both you and Perchik, everything is not political.

You are, of course, correct. Everything is not political. But, I never said it was. I said - the scriptures has a lot of politics. Mosiah 29 and Alma 1-4 that we just had in Sunday school not too long ago is all about politics and how we apply God's principles to policies of governance. Jesus's death and resurrection is not about politics. It's about the Atonement.

Politics is not a bad word and does not need to be avoided in Sunday School. Applying partisan politics to God's principles of policy is what you need to avoid.

Lookie here. Skalenfehl's comment about King Benjamin here is a common discussion in Sunday school. That's a political discussion. Notice there is nothing partisan about it.

He was a great example to his son Mosiah who was the last king of the Nephites before instituting the reign of the judges in favor of creating a land of liberty where each man was accountable for his own choices rather than their kings and leaders taking upon themselves that mantle. The century thereafter was the greatest in Nephite history with both great and terrible events resulting, which is one of the primary reasons Mormon included it for the Gentiles in the latter days (that would be all of us) so that we could learn from their mistakes and not follow in their footsteps. Alas Moroni also saw our day and knew precisely that we would fall into the exact same pitfalls. We have been involved in these politics since the war in heaven and it's all about liberty and agency.

But... one can easily make this into a bad political discussion by saying - "Today's US welfare state is bad because it goes against Mosiah's vision of having each man be accountable for his own choices rather than their leaders."

Now, THAT should not be in a Sunday School lesson.

Government is politics - it is all about policy and rule. We, as God's children, cannot live as a society without a certain form of governance. Therefore, the scriptures is full of spiritual principles to be applied to governance. You cannot and should not avoid that discussion.

[Guest]

Skalenfehl, your basically saying that Zion is still going to consist of a political government?

Sicily, this question doesn't make sense... Governance is POLITICAL. Political - dealing with policies. So, you can't say government without it being political.

If what you mean is... "you're basically saying that Zion is still going to consist of a non-theocratic government?"... then that would make sense.

Theocratic government is where God (or a representative speaking for God) dictates the policies. So no, there wouldn't be partisanship in this form of government. Partisanship is only applicable to democratic forms of government where you allow the people to choose a party affiliation. There is no such thing in a theocracy because there is only one party - God.

[skalenfehl]

But... one can easily make this into a bad political discussion by saying - "Today's US welfare state is bad because it goes against Mosiah's vision of having each man be accountable for his own choices rather than their leaders."

Now, THAT should not be in a Sunday School lesson.

Government is politics - it is all about policy and rule. We, as God's children, cannot live as a society without a certain form of governance. Therefore, the scriptures is full of spiritual principles to be applied to governance. You cannot and should not avoid that discussion.

There is corruption in every office of government from the bottom to the top as there was in the land of Zarahemla. It is the way of things, which why it takes all liberty minded people today, as it did then, to uphold "just laws." Today's US welfare state is corrupt. What it was designed for and how it is abused are two different things, as is how the Constitution was designed and how it is abused, as were the laws of Zarahemla and how they were abused.

I whole heartedly agree. We as God's children were meant to live the Law of Christ, the United Order, upholding the Law of Consecration. The early saints failed in that attempt. What we have left is what the Lord intended at the founding of the United States: The Constitution.

When Christ returns, the government will be upon His shoulders and we will finally (those of us who, in our hearts already uphold the United Order, live in Zion as a Zion people, as did the people of the city of Enoch who were translated. We will be one heart, one mind, one people. Until then, we stand up for and fight for its principles, which the Lord gave to our founding fathers and which all our latter day prophets have been been trying to teach us.

[Guest]

There is corruption in every office of government from the bottom to the top as there was in the land of Zarahemla. It is the way of things, which why it takes all liberty minded people today, as it did then, to uphold "just laws." Today's US welfare state is corrupt. What it was designed for and how it is abused are two different things, as is how the Constitution was designed and how it is abused, as were the laws of Zarahemla and how they were abused.

I whole heartedly agree. We as God's children were meant to live the Law of Christ, the United Order, upholding the Law of Consecration. The early saints failed in that attempt. What we have left is what the Lord intended at the founding of the United States: The Constitution.

When Christ returns, the government will be upon His shoulders and we will finally (those of us who, in our hearts already uphold the United Order, live in Zion as a Zion people, as did the people of the city of Enoch who were translated. We will be one heart, one mind, one people. Until then, we stand up for and fight for its principles, which the Lord gave to our founding fathers and which all our latter day prophets have been been trying to teach us.

Skal, I hear ya. Not everybody agrees with you on the application of God's principles when it comes to the welfare state though.

Now... mnn727 and Anne... the above post can't be taught in Church. That's the kind of political discussion that we need to avoid there.

Is my point getting any clearer to you at least?

[Windseeker]

I've had a hard time understanding why we are not more united in our political ideology. We all share the same beliefs and values why would we be so divided when it comes to politics?

I truly believe that good people can be found on either side as both sides have been painted in such an evil light. It all comes down to who you trust.

To me I see one particular political partys very survival being based on ensuring that there are large divisions in race, econimic status, religion, education, sex etc.. Without these divisions they lose everything. The rhetoric is so strong now and it's only increasing.

We need to be patient and understanding with those of different views. I have brought up politics in church but I didn't feel good afterwards. I won't do it again.

[Sicily510]

Sicily, this question doesn't make sense... Governance is POLITICAL. Political - dealing with policies. So, you can't say government without it being political.

If what you mean is... "you're basically saying that Zion is still going to consist of a non-theocratic government?"... then that would make sense.

Theocratic government is where God (or a representative speaking for God) dictates the policies. So no, there wouldn't be partisanship in this form of government. Partisanship is only applicable to democratic forms of government where you allow the people to choose a party affiliation. There is no such thing in a theocracy because there is only one party - God.

So than Anatess, your saying that Zion is going to consist of a government? I ask this only because I want to understand and if someone can reference in the scripture anything pertaining to Zion being governed. I am enlightened by all this political explanations, however, I'm concerned more as to where I stand with Heavenly Father and not with the government.

I agree in being a law abiding citizen but what happens when may I quote Abraham Lincoln:

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

Mosiah 29:26

Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people.

look up the cross-reference on "lesser part of the people" it will reference to " TG Government", so zion is the Counsellors "Voice of the people whom are baptized and born again holy under one order Heavenly Father (God)".

I don't know this is just from my own research please, anybody I would love others thoughts. This is why I feel that the church is being neutral now because we have to be cautious since politics is corrupted.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Sicily510

[skalenfehl]

Unfortunately, the reason we don't/can't talk about it/endorse candidates in church is because, like this website, the church is now, unlike the church when it was restored, a corporation. It's a legal entity now, subject to a whole new set of rules and laws. But the eternal principles that we uphold and should uphold are the same. Back then, politics was preached from the pulpit.

Edited June 27, 2012 by skalenfehl

[skalenfehl]

I've had a hard time understanding why we are not more united in our political ideology. We all share the same beliefs and values why would we be so divided when it comes to politics?

Because people don't study history and thus cannot learn from it.

"This truth is well known among our principal men now engaged in forming an imperialism of Capital to govern the world. By dividing the voters through the political party system, we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance. Thus by discreet action we can secure for ourselves what has been so well planned and so successfully accomplished."-- Sir Denison Miller

The two party system in the US is a farce. And people don't even realize that they have been played by corrupt people from the founding of our nation. Moroni warned us about this in the Book of Mormon, but people don't really and truly see it:

Ether 8

20 And now I, Moroni, do not write the manner of their oaths and combinations, for it hath been made known unto me that they are had among all people, and they are had among the Lamanites.

21 And they have caused the destruction of this people of whom I am now speaking, and also the destruction of the people of Nephi.

22 And whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed; for the Lord will not suffer that the blood of his saints, which shall be shed by them, shall always cry unto him from the ground for vengeance upon them and yet he avenge them not.

23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

So you see, because we are not following the counsel and prophecies of our prophets, especially our prophet Ezra Taft Benson, who served in the government and saw what was going on behind the scenes, well, we're just gonna make the same mistakes each election year. And we wonder why things don't change here at the bottom.

[skalenfehl]

So than Anatess, your saying that Zion is going to consist of a government? I ask this only because I want to understand and if someone can reference in the scriptures pertaining to Zion being governed.

If you have a gospel principles manual, or you can go to lds.org and begin studying Zion, Millennium, etc. You can also study the Law of Consecration and United Order.

I am enlightened by all this political explanations, however, I'm concerned more as to where I stand with Heavenly Father and not with the government.

I highly, highly recommend this book for any LDS who is trying to make sense of how the Lord has instituted the principle of liberty in our land both during the time of the Nephites and in our day in the United States. This is a chosen land and was set apart for the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the building of New Jerusalem.

Amazon.com: Latter-day Liberty: A Gospel Approach to Government and Politics

As for how you stand with Heavenly Father, I cannot think of a better book than the Book of Mormon. Please watch the video in my signature.

[mnn727]

To me I see one particular political partys very survival being based on ensuring that there are large divisions in race, econimic status, religion, education, sex etc.. Without these divisions they lose everything. The rhetoric is so strong now and it's only increasing.

And I see the other party as lying to their base, saying one thing to get elected and never doing anything about the issues they campaigned on when they are in power or in fact doing just the opposite.

I'm fed up with both major parties, unfortunately both parties base see's their parties as saviors of the world and the other party as Satan personified. So we are stuck voting for the lesser of two evils or for a 3rd party candidate that hasn't got a chance of being elected.

Quite frankly if there were a new frontier to take off for, I'd have my bags packed. The problem is there are no new frontiers anymore.

[Sicily510]

Regardless who we vote for and if a LDS member is in congress or the house of representatives, Zion is and always will be built upon the rock (Jesus Christ). Basically this government is going to be on the shoulder of Zion "Kingdom of God" Prince of peace you can't tell me that the government is Zion because it is not, so everything is going to be alright if we continue living the gospel and focus on Zion. The government will need to ultimately declare who it seeks?

Zion

Church History Gems - 6 August 2010

One Qualification

"Never in this dispensation, and perhaps never before in any single period, has there been such a feeling of urgency among the members of this church as today. Her boundaries are being enlarged, her stakes are being strengthened. In the early years of the Church specific places to which the Saints were to be gathered together were given, and the Lord directed that these gathering places should not be changed, but then he gave one qualification: 'Until the day cometh when there is found no more room for them; and then I have other places which I will appoint unto them, and they shall be called stakes, for the curtains or the strength of Zion.' (D&C 101:21.)

"At the Mexico City Area Conference last August [1972], Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Council of the Twelve, in a thought-provoking address, made some comments pertinent to this subject, and I quote a few sentences from his address:

" 'Of this glorious day of restoration and gathering, another Nephite prophet said: "The Lord . . . has covenanted with all the house of Israel," that "the time comes that they shall be restored to the true church and fold of God"; and that "they shall be gathered home to the lands of their inheritance, and shall be established in all their lands of promise." (2 Ne. 9:1–2.)

" 'Now I call your attention to the facts, set forth in these scriptures, that the gathering of Israel consists of joining the true church; of coming to a knowledge of the true God and of his saving truths; and of worshiping him in the congregations of the Saints in all nations and among all peoples. Please note that these revealed words speak of the folds of the Lord; of Israel being gathered to the lands of their inheritance; of Israel being established in all their lands of promise; and of there being congregations of the covenant people of the Lord in every nation, speaking every tongue, and among every people when the Lord comes again.' "

Harold B. Lee, "Strengthen the Stakes of Zion," Ensign, July 1973, 4

Topics: Zion

Church History Gems - 23 July 2010

Favored People

"The Prophet Joseph Smith said: 'The building up of Zion is a cause that has interested the people of God in every age; it is a theme upon which prophets, priests and kings have dwelt with peculiar delight; they have looked forward with joyful anticipation to the day in which we live; and fired with heavenly and joyful anticipations they have sung and written and prophesied of this our day; but they died without the sight; we are the favored people that God has made choice of to bring about the Latter-day glory' (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [Melchizedek Priesthood and Relief Society course of study, 2007], 186).

"Zion is both a place and a people."

D. Todd Christofferson, "Come to Zion, Ensign," Nov. 2008, 37

Topics: Zion

Church History Gems - 28 June 2010

Inherent Qualities of Sanctity

"To be worthy of such a sacred designation as Zion, the Church must think of itself as a bride adorned for her husband, as John the Revelator recorded when he saw in vision the Holy City where the righteous dwelled, adorned as a bride for the Lamb of God as her husband. Here is portrayed the relationship the Lord desires in his people in order to be acceptable to our Lord and Master even as a wife would adorn herself in beautiful garments for her husband.

"The rule by which the people of God must live in order to be worthy of acceptance in the sight of God is indicated by the text to which I have made reference. This people must increase in beauty before the world; have an inward loveliness which may be observed by mankind as a reflection in holiness and in those inherent qualities of sanctity. . . .

"While the Church was in its infancy, the Lord pointed to a time when those earlier gathering places would not have room for all who would be gathered for reasons for which he declared that his church should be united. Here are his words:

" 'For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.' And then this command: 'Arise and shine forth, that thy light may be a standard for the nations.' (D&C 115:4–5.)

"Here is clearly inferred that the coming forth of his church in these days was the beginning of the fulfillment of the ancient prophecy when 'the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains. . . .' (Isa. 2:2.)"

Harold B. Lee, "Strengthen the Stakes of Zion," Ensign, July 1973, 3–4

Topics: Zion

Church History Gems - 5 February 2010

Zion

"The vision of what we are about and what should come of our labors must be kept uppermost in our minds as we learn and do our duty. . . . This applies equally to all Church activities. In the fifty-eighth section of the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord shares with us a glimpse of this Latter-day Zion:

" 'Ye cannot behold with your natural eyes, for the present time, the design of your God concerning those things which shall come hereafter, and the glory which shall follow after much tribulation.

" 'For after much tribulation come the blessings. Wherefore the day cometh that ye shall be crowned with much glory; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand. . . .

" 'Behold, verily I say unto you, for this cause I have sent you—that you might be obedient, and that your hearts might be prepared to bear testimony of the things which are to come;

" 'And also that you might be honored in laying the foundation, and in bearing record of the land upon which the Zion of God shall stand; . . .

" 'And after that cometh the day of my power; then shall the poor, the lame, and the blind, and the deaf, come in unto the marriage of the Lamb, and partake of the supper of the Lord, prepared for the great day to come.

" 'Behold, I, the Lord, have spoken it.' (D&C 58:3–12.)

"This day will come; it is our destiny to help bring it about! Doesn't it motivate you to lengthen your stride and quicken your pace as you do your part in the great sanctifying work of the kingdom? It does me. It causes me to rejoice over the many opportunities for service and sacrifice afforded me and my family as we seek to do our part in establishing Zion."

Spencer W. Kimball, "Becoming the Pure in Heart," Ensign, May 1978, 80

Topics: Service, Zion

Church History Gems - 1 February 2010

Selfishness

"Defining and describing Zion will not bring it about. That can only be done through consistent and concerted daily effort by every single member of the Church. No matter what the cost in toil or sacrifice, we must 'do it.' That is one of my favorite phrases: 'Do It.' . . .

". . . We must eliminate the individual tendency to selfishness that snares the soul, shrinks the heart, and darkens the mind. . . .

". . . The Lord himself declared to our grandparents: 'And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine property.' (D&C 19:26.)

"He further counseled his young church by saying:

" 'Behold, I, the Lord, am not well pleased with many who are in the church at Kirtland:

" 'For they do not forsake their sins and their wicked ways, the pride of their hearts, and their covetousness, and all their detestable things, and observe the words of wisdom and eternal life which I have given unto them.' (D&C 98:19–20.) It is incumbent upon us to put away selfishness in our families, our business and professional pursuits, and our Church affairs."

Spencer W. Kimball, "Becoming the Pure in Heart," Ensign, May 1978, 81

Topics: Service, Zion

Church History Gems - 27 January 2010

Zion

"In the earliest years of this dispensation the people faltered in attempting to live the full economic plan of Zion, the united order. Because of their transgressions, the Lord chastened them. . . .

"The length of time required 'to accomplish all things pertaining to Zion' is strictly up to us and how we live, for creating Zion 'commences in the heart of each person.' (Journal of Discourses, 9:283.) That it would take some time to learn our lessons was seen by the prophets. In 1863 Brigham Young stated:

" 'If the people neglect their duty, turn away from the holy commandments which God has given us, seek their own individual wealth, and neglect the interests of the kingdom of God, we may expect to be here quite a time—perhaps a period that will be far longer than we anticipate.' (Journal of Discourses, 11:102.)

"Unfortunately we live in a world that largely rejects the values of Zion. Babylon has not and never will comprehend Zion. . . .

"This state of affairs stands in marked contrast to the Zion the Lord seeks to establish through his covenant people. Zion can be built up only among those who are the pure in heart, not a people torn by covetousness or greed, but a pure and selfless people. . . . No, Zion is not things of the lower, but of the higher order, things that exalt the mind and sanctify the heart.

"Zion is 'every man seeking the interest of his neighbor, and doing all things with an eye single to the glory of God.' (D&C 82:19.) As I understand these matters, Zion can be established only by those who are pure in heart, and who labor for Zion."

Spencer W. Kimball, "Becoming the Pure in Heart," Ensign, May 1978, 80–81

Topics: Service, Zion

Daily Gems - 2 July 2009

Purity

"The Savior was critical of some of the early Saints for their 'lustful . . . desires' (D&C 101:6; see also D&C 88:121). These were people who lived in a non-television, non-film, non-Internet, non-iPod world. In a world now awash in sexualized images and music, are we free from lustful desires and their attendant evils?"

D. Todd Christofferson, "Come to Zion, Ensign," Nov. 2008, 38–39

Topics: Zion

Daily Gems - 16 April 2009

Of One Heart and One Mind

"As we consider the unity required for Zion to flourish, we should ask ourselves if we have overcome jarrings, contentions, envyings, and strifes (see D&C 101:6). Are we individually and as a people free from strife and contention and united 'according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom'? (D&C 105:4). Forgiveness of one another is essential to this unity. Jesus said, 'I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men' (D&C 64:10).

"We will become of one heart and one mind as we individually place the Savior at the center of our lives and follow those He has commissioned to lead us."

D. Todd Christofferson, "Come to Zion," Ensign, Nov. 2008, 38

Topics: Jesus Christ, Zion, Forgiveness

Youth Gems - 24 March 2009

Zion

"Zion is both a place and a people. Zion was the name given to the ancient city of Enoch in the days before the Flood. 'And it came to pass in his days, that he built a city that was called the City of Holiness, even Zion' (Moses 7:19). This Zion endured for some 365 years (see Moses 7:68). The scriptural record states, 'And Enoch and all his people walked with God, and he dwelt in the midst of Zion; and it came to pass that Zion was not, for God received it up into his own bosom; and from thence went forth the saying, Zion is fled' (Moses 7:69). . . .

"The Lord called Enoch's people Zion 'because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them' (Moses 7:18). Elsewhere He said, 'For this is Zion—the pure in heart' (D&C 97:21)."

D. Todd Christofferson, "Come to Zion," Ensign, Nov. 2008, 37

Topics: Unity, Zion

Daily Gems - 18 March 2009

Rising to Zion's Standard

"Under the direction of the Prophet Joseph Smith, early members of the Church attempted to establish the center place of Zion in Missouri, but they did not qualify to build the holy city. . . .

"Zion is Zion because of the character, attributes, and faithfulness of her citizens. Remember, 'the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them' (Moses 7:18). If we would establish Zion in our homes, branches, wards, and stakes, we must rise to this standard. It will be necessary (1) to become unified in one heart and one mind; (2) to become, individually and collectively, a holy people; and (3) to care for the poor and needy with such effectiveness that we eliminate poverty among us. We cannot wait until Zion comes for these things to happen—Zion will come only as they happen."

D. Todd Christofferson, "Come to Zion," Ensign, Nov. 2008, 37–38

Topics: Zion, Righteousness

Daily Gems - 10 March 2009

From Babylon to Zion

"The antithesis and antagonist of Zion is Babylon. The city of Babylon was originally Babel, of Tower of Babel fame, and later became the capital of the Babylonian empire. Its principal edifice was the temple of Bel, or Baal, the idol referred to by Old Testament prophets as 'The Shame,' given the sexual perversions that were associated with its worship. (See Bible Dictionary, 'Assyria and Babylonia,' 615–16; 'Baal,' 617–18; 'Babylon, or Babel,' 618). Its worldliness, its worship of evil, and the captivity of Judah there following the conquest of 587 B.C. all combine to make Babylon the symbol of decadent societies and spiritual bondage.

"It is with this backdrop that the Lord said to the members of His Church, 'Go ye out of Babylon; gather ye out from among the nations, from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other' (D&C 133:7). He called for the elders of His Church to be sent forth across the world to accomplish this gathering, commencing an effort that continues in full vigor today. 'And behold, and lo, this shall be their cry, and the voice of the Lord unto all people: Go ye forth unto the land of Zion, that the borders of my people may be enlarged, and that her stakes may be strengthened, and that Zion may go forth unto the regions round about' (D&C 133:9)."

D. Todd Christofferson, "Come to Zion," Ensign, Nov. 2008, 37

Topics: Mission of the Church, Adversity, Zion

Daily Gems - 5 March 2009

Zion a Place and a People

"Zion is both a place and a people. Zion was the name given to the ancient city of Enoch in the days before the Flood. 'And it came to pass in his days, that he built a city that was called the City of Holiness, even Zion' (Moses 7:19). This Zion endured for some 365 years (see Moses 7:68). . . . Later, Jerusalem and its temple were called Mount Zion, and the scriptures prophesy of a future New Jerusalem where Christ shall reign as 'King of Zion,' when 'for the space of a thousand years the earth shall rest' (Moses 7:53, 64).

"The Lord called Enoch's people Zion 'because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them' (Moses 7:18). Elsewhere He said 'For this is Zion—the pure in heart' (D&C 97:21)."

D. Todd Christofferson, "Come to Zion," Ensign, Nov. 2008, 37

Topics: Jesus Christ, Zion, Peace

Church History Gems - 9 May 2008

A Practical Religion

"If we wish to enjoy the Spirit of Zion, we must live for it. Our religion is not merely theory; it is a practical religion, to bring present enjoyment to every heart."

Brigham Young, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young (1997), 25

Topics: Zion

Church History Gems - 21 December 2007

Latter-day Saints Should Be a Light.

"It is easy to despair when we see about us the moorings of society slipping. We must remember, however, that the Lord sent His Saints into the world 'to be a light unto the world, and to be the saviors of men.' (D&C 103:9.) This is a time when 'Zion must arise and put on her beautiful garments.' (D&C 82:14.) The contrast between the Church and the world will be increasingly marked in the future, which contrast, we hope, will cause the Church to be more attractive to those in the world who desire to live according to God's plan for us, His children."

Ezra Taft Benson, "May the Kingdom of God Go Forth," Ensign, May 1978, 33

Topics: Zion

Church History Gems - 5 October 2007

A Practical Religion.

"If we wish to enjoy the Spirit of Zion, we must live for it. Our religion is not merely theory; it is a practical religion, to bring present enjoyment to every heart."

Brigham Young, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 25

Topics: Zion

Young Single Adult Gems - 18 June 2007

On Zion's Hill

"When Emma Smith, wife of the Prophet Joseph, collected hymns for the first hymnbook, she included 'Guide Us, O Thou Great Jehovah,' which is, in fact, a prayer:

" 'When the earth begins to tremble,

Bid our fearful thoughts be still;

When thy judgments spread destruction,

Keep us safe on Zion's hill' (Hymns, no. 83).

Boyd K. Packer, "On Zion's Hill," Ensign, Nov. 2005, 73

Topics: Obedience, Zion

Daily Gems - 6 March 2007

Zion Will Be Built upon the Earth

"The choice to come unto Christ is not a matter of physical location; it is a matter of individual commitment. People can be 'brought to the knowledge of the Lord' (3 Nephi 20:13) without leaving their homelands. True, in the early days of the Church, conversion often meant emigration as well. But now the gathering takes place in each nation. The Lord has decreed the establishment of Zion (see D&C 6:6; 11:6; 12:6; 14:6)

in each realm where He has given His Saints their birth and nationality. Scripture foretells that the people 'shall be gathered home to the lands of their inheritance, and shall be established in all their lands of promise' (2 Nephi 9:2). 'Every nation is the gathering place for its own people' (Bruce R. McConkie, in Conference Report, Mexico City Mexico Area Conference 1972, 45). The place of gathering for Brazilian Saints is in Brazil; the place of gathering for Nigerian Saints is in Nigeria; the place of gathering for Korean Saints is in Korea; and so forth. Zion is 'the pure in heart' (D&C 97:21). Zion is wherever righteous Saints are. Publications, communications, and congregations are now such that nearly all members have access to the doctrines, keys, ordinances, and blessings of the gospel, regardless of their location."

Russell M. Nelson, "The Gathering of Scattered Israel," Ensign, Nov. 2006, 81

Topics: Zion

LDS.org - Archives by Topic - Zion

I have studied the Declaration of independence and understand that it is and was inspired by a spiritual supreme, Zion is and will always be inspired by Heavenly Father (God). There is a difference, so you speak of repairing the government when we should prepare ourselves for Zion. There is going to be holy nations aside from Zion, it is our duty to prepare and work in peace, the government is about power and arbitrating policies and rules. Zion already has unity in understanding principalities and ordinances thereof and that's Heavenly Father's.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Sicily510

[annewandering]

Unfortunately, the reason we don't/can't talk about it/endorse candidates in church is because, like this website, the church is now, unlike the church when it was restored, a corporation. It's a legal entity now, subject to a whole new set of rules and laws. But the eternal principles that we uphold and should uphold are the same. Back then, politics was preached from the pulpit.

baloney.

Also for all your quoting I dont see where we are told what to do in politics. I remember the pharisees were so enamored of Christ because of all their learning.

skalenfehl, I am sorry that you feel that any one with half a brain will obviously agree with you. I must have left my literate brain in the dirty laundry because this brain does not read any of your many quotes as telling me that tea is good for our nation and we will collapse without it.

I like this quote. "Elder Dallin Oaks: I find some wisdom in liberalism, some wisdom in conservatism, and much truth in intellectualism-but I find no salvation in any of them. Ensign, Feb. 1987, 68"

Now we go to church for one reason. Salvation. Why would we preach and teach in church that has no salvation in it? The answer is we dont. We are told NOT to preach or teach it. How about if we follow the very clear instructions of the Church on this?

Edited June 27, 2012 by annewandering

[beefche]

What part of his statement do you think is baloney?