Politics in Church arg

[Sicily510]

What part of his statement do you think is baloney?

That the Church Of Jesus Christ Of These Latter-day Saints is a legal entity that is subjected to the U.S. new set of rules and laws. What's the contract policy for foreign nations?

legal entity

Definition

An individual or organization which is legally permitted to enter into a contract, and be sued if it fails to meet its contractual obligations.

[skalenfehl]

Annewandering, It is first and foremost my humble wish to make sure that you know that I do not want to create contention. My initial response was in reply to Sicily510 so I hope you can see that I am not trying to anger you. I do feel that because of my reply to Sicily510, you have addressed me uncharitably. I'm not entirely sure how your initial reply to me is relevant, especially regarding tea in the word of wisdom. But since you have addressed me again, I hope that I can answer your questions in a way that you don't feel like I'm attacking you.

baloney.

Also for all your quoting I dont see where we are told what to do in politics. I remember the pharisees were so enamored of Christ because of all their learning.

May I recommend you read all the quotes again? Where do you think the prophets stood or sat when they made those addresses (of which I only quoted one or two paragraphs)?

The Pharisees and the Sadducees were not enamored with Jesus Christ. They challenged and defied Him, particularly when He healed common folk on the Sabbath. James Talmage writes a very good chapter about this called "Lord of the Sabbath." The Pharisees had corrupted the Law of Moses to the point where the Jews had no idea why they were doing the performances or that those performances, in their pure and original forms, pointed to the need for the Savior.

I fail to see the connection you are making between the Pharisees and what our Prophets have been teaching us about the importance of liberty and the Constitution. It was barely enough to keep the early Latter Day Saints from being completely exterminated.

skalenfehl, I am sorry that you feel that any one with half a brain will obviously agree with you. I must have left my literate brain in the dirty laundry because this brain does not read any of your many quotes as telling me that tea is good for our nation and we will collapse without it.

Forgive me. Again, what does a beverage forbidden us by the Word of Wisdom have to do with what our prophets have been exhorting us to do to preserve our rights to worship as Latter Day Saints without persecution and our rights to life, liberty, property and the pursuit of our happiness?

I like this quote. "Elder Dallin Oaks: I find some wisdom in liberalism, some wisdom in conservatism, and much truth in intellectualism-but I find no salvation in any of them. Ensign, Feb. 1987, 68"

I definitely agree. Joseph Smith was brutally murdered defending our right to worship so that we could have a church wherein we could gain salvation. If our rights are taken away as they are being taken away as I type this, then what salvation will our children and their children have? The Constitution guarantees that you get to go to church every Sunday and partake of the Sacrament, that we can be baptized when we are eight or whenever we are converted, and attend temple endowments, and much more.

Did you know that the following countries do not have what we have? They cannot go to church, they cannot get baptized or even have freedom of religion. Those countries are:

Burma

China

Egypt

Eritrea

Iran

Iraq

Nigeria

North Korea

Pakistan

Saudi Arabia

Sudan

Turkmenistan

Uzbekistan

Vietnam

Do you think they deserve to have the gospel and have salvation like you and me and Elder Dallin Oaks? Can you begin to see why our latter day prophets have told us over and over again to understand our history, understand our rights, understand the constitution, etc?

Now we go to church for one reason. Salvation. Why would we preach and teach in church that has no salvation in it? The answer is we dont. We are told NOT to preach or teach it. How about if we follow the very clear instructions of the Church on this?

You and I have the luxury of going to church. We live in the United States. We have the freedom to worship and have salvation. They cannot have a church that preaches and teaches salvation. Is the LDS church an American church? Of course not. Do the Chinese not deserve salvation? Who is fighting for them? Who is standing up for their opportunities to read a Book of Mormon in China or North Korea?

Since you mentioned Elder Dallin H. Oaks, let me quote him too:

"After two centuries, every nation in the world except six have adopted written constitutions, and the United States Constitution was the model for all of them...

Consequently, if we abandon or weaken its fundamental principle, we betray our own national ideals, and we also weaken our global neighbors...

I maintain that in our nation's founding and in our constitutional order, religious freedom, and the freedoms of speech and press associated with it in the First Amendment, are the motivating and dominating civil liberties and civil rights...

Unpopular minority religions are especially dependent upon a constitutional guarantee of free exercise of religion. ... The importance of that guarantee should make us ever diligent to defend it. And it is in need of being defended. In my lifetime, I have seen a significant deterioration in the respect accorded to religion in our public life, and I believe that the vitality of religious freedom is in danger of being weakened accordingly..."

Elder Dallin H. Oaks: Constitution’s principles and freedoms must be protected | Deseret News

But if all the prophets that I have thus far quoted is still not enough to help anyone understand that we must be free and we must defend our freedom, let me quote Jesus Christ as he spoke to Joseph Smith in Kirtland, Ohio:

D&C 101

77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;

78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.

79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another.

80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

Again in D&C 98:

4 And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them.

5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.

6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;

I don't know how else I can make any clearer how important it is to know what countless prophets from Isaiah to Nephi to Moroni to Joseph Smith and all the others I have quoted so far have foreseen, to know how important it is to be valiant in maintaining our right to go to church and do all the things we do for our salvation, which is solely because we have a document that guarantees that right, which was given to us by God and ratified by men who bled and died to ensure its guarantee.

Edited June 28, 2012 by pam
Added the word "not" to wanting to create contention

[Dravin]

That the Church Of Jesus Christ Of These Latter-day Saints is a legal entity that is subjected to the U.S. new set of rules and laws.

It is a legal entity, if it weren't so it couldn't be sued and it can. For example: Man files suit against LDS Church, Boy Scouts | Deseret News . If it wasn't a legal entity they'd have been forced to file suit against individuals. Of course it's even simpler than that, it can own land and it does so. Furthermore it is a recognized 501©(3), subject to the legal restrictions to remain such, which is, I suspect, what skalenfehl was referring to.

Where a recognized legal entity in other countries it'll be subject to relevant laws and policies.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Dravin

[beefche]

That the Church Of Jesus Christ Of These Latter-day Saints is a legal entity that is subjected to the U.S. new set of rules and laws. What's the contract policy for foreign nations?

Here ya go....a link to the all knowing wikipedia on how the church is a legal entity (and owns other legal entities):

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So what else is baloney from his statement?

[Guest]

So than Anatess, your saying that Zion is going to consist of a government?

Yes.

I ask this only because I want to understand and if someone can reference in the scripture anything pertaining to Zion being governed. I am enlightened by all this political explanations, however, I'm concerned more as to where I stand with Heavenly Father and not with the government.

Here ya go:

Gospel Principles Chapter 45: The Millennium

In Zion, Jesus Christ is the governor, ruler, or king, the Holy Priesthood is the government, the righteous people will be the governed. Righteous people are those who will inherit either the Terrestrial or Celestial Kingdoms in the eternities. All of those people who are not qualified to inherit these kingdoms would have been already destroyed at the Second Coming.

At this time, we still continue to have children and raise families, we still retain our own free agency with our own ideas of how we live under the new theocratic government. But, because only the righteous are in the society, it is prophecied that we will live in peace.

It's pretty cool.

And see... here's another lesson that can't be taught unless you touch on politics.

[Sicily510]

“Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.” Thomas Jefferson

'A liberal education is at the heart of a civil society, and at the heart of a liberal education is the act of teaching." - Bartlett Giammati

I agree that Zion is going to consist of a government but it's going to be apolitical.

What Every Elder Should Know—and Every Sister as Well: A Primer on Principles of Priesthood Government

What Every Elder Should Know?and Every Sister as Well: A Primer on Principles of Priesthood Government - Ensign Feb. 1993 - ensign

Do you understand that politics has nothing to do with Heavenly Father's plan?

pol·i·tics

   [pol-i-tiks] Show IPA

noun ( used with a singular or plural verb )

1.

the science or art of political government.

2.

the practice or profession of conducting political affairs.

3.

political affairs: The advocated reforms have become embroiled in politics.

4.

political methods or maneuvers: We could not approve of his politics in winning passage of the bill.

5.

political principles or opinions: We avoided discussion of religion and politics. His politics are his own affair.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints endorse political parties?

The Church has made the following public statement on multiple occasions prior to major elections: “Principles compatible with the gospel are found in the platforms of all major political parties. While the Church does not endorse political candidates, platforms, or parties, members are urged to be full participants in political, governmental, and community affairs.”

I find it very disturbing relating anything pertaining to the gospel that is Holy and consecrated to politics, it's like saying that God is Political, I believe God is Zion. And you wonder why people dislike America because of this indignation, Zion and the U.S. government is not one in the same. To think that Zion depends on the constitution is like saying that everything that was created and funded by the governing of the LDS church is indebted to the United States government. In my opinion, that would be violation of the LDS church's civil rights in Amendment I – Freedom of Religion, Speech and the Press; Rights of Assembly and Petition.

Yes, it is the roles of American citizens to fully participate in political, governmental, and community affairs. It's not American citizens rights to put their own political understanding into the churches gospel, that's misleading those who need to strengthen their understanding and testimony in the LDS church so that they can be worthy of Zion. That's why people who go to church to gain spiritual nourishment shouldn't be stigmatized by individuals who think it's so politically correct to teach liberal or conservative principles in the church. The LDS church clearly states:

Principles compatible with the gospel are found in the platforms of all major political parties.

Now, this is why I ask if Zion is going to consist of a political government, we must understand that their is a difference between politics and governments.

Government without Politics

Publication date: 2002-02-04

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Government or Politics?

What is Government?

What is Politics?

What Has to Be Done?

Government or Politics? ----- to top

"Government or Politics?", you will say, "But, aren't government and politics the same thing?"

Alas, this is what most people think. Political government has been with us for so long that most people don't know the difference.

And yet there is a difference. For one thing, while most governments today consist of politicians (or militaries indulging in politics), not all politicians are in government. But, to understand the real issue, one has to ask the questions: "What is Government?" and "What is Politics?".

What is Government? ----- to top

Government is one or more people whose responsibility is to protect people within the area of governance from injustice, to resolve disputes between people within the area of governance, and to ensure general public safety and well-being.

To perform its duties government has powers to interfere with the person, freedom or property of people within its governance without their consent, such as, preventing and punishing criminal activities, providing a workable legal system for resolution of disputes between people, and raising taxes to finance the legitimate activities of government. Such interference is strictly limited to the minimum necessary for the performance of the duties of government. Use of these powers beyond the necessary minimum or for any other purpose than performance of the duties of government is injustice. And any form of injustice is crime or civil wrong, whether it is committed by private individuals, groups of individuals or governments.

What is Politics? ----- to top

Politics, in the context of government, is abuse of government powers to promote a particular interest. For example, to promote the personal career of a politician, or to favour a group of people on whose votes or financial support a particular government depends.

A government could be elected, because it promises to pass laws favouring a particular group, or it can yield to pressures by a group when already in power.

At the international level, a government could use wars, economic blockades, or restrictive trading practices to obtain a dishonest advantage or influence over another country.

In all the cases a government indulging in politics, rather than performing honest administration over its area of governance, is abusing its powers.

What Has to Be Done? ----- to top

Because government powers are rights to commit acts, which, if committed by persons not having these rights would have constituted crimes or civil wrongs, it is necessary to ensure that these powers are not abused, that is, that governments do not indulge in politics.

To achieve that purpose it is necessary to define strictly and clearly the duties of government in each sphere of the government activity.

Without such definition, there is no way of determining, whether the government is performing its duties correctly or not.

If houses were built with the same degree of understanding what the resulting house should be, as politicians have of the result and purpose of their activities, no house would ever be finished, and whatever parts of houses happened to be built would be either collapsing or dismantled and rebuilt, as the understanding of the builders what they are doing would be constantly changing (with the changes in the 'political' climate).

Not many builders build houses that way, but this is how most of the government activities are performed: education, healthcare, policing, railways, the Dome ... , in fact, anything politicians do.

While there are cases when private people engage in business activities without understanding what they are doing, if they fail, it is themselves who sustain the loss.

Government activities are not financed by politicians out of their own private funds, they are financed from taxes taken from private people.

Like driving a car, government is a dangerous activity. But while the danger that can result from driving a car is usually restricted to damage to a few people (seldom more than 10, and very rarely more than 100), misuse of government powers can result in damage affecting millions of people, and billions worth of damage to property. In the course of the 20th century alone, crimes committed by various governments around the world have caused more deaths and destruction of property, then crimes committed by private criminals throughout all the history of mankind.

But while to drive a car one is required a third party insurance and passing a driving test, the only requirement for being in government is membership of a political party, of a group of arrogant, ignorant, vain and ambitious individuals, craving for power to impose their will on others. It is obvious that belonging to an organisation is no substitute for a third party insurance or a driving test, but on the basis of membership of a party alone, politicians obtain access to practically unlimited powers to cause practically unlimited damage.

So while politicians do not want to limit their 'powers' or accept any responsibility for the results of their own actions, it is necessary for the purpose of honest government that the duties of government be strictly limited and clearly defined, and that those in government be made responsible for the results of their actions.

Honest people in government will understand the need for such limitations, in the same way as honest traders understand the need for the Weights and Measures Act. It is time that an equivalent of the Weights and Measures Act be enacted to help those in government to perform their duties with the same level of honesty, competence and responsibility as we expect from a girl at a supermarket checkout. Politics, that is, any abuse of government powers, has to become a crime punishable by 5 years imprisonment and disqualification from holding a public office for life.

Government without Politics

Excerpt from the above:

"If houses were built with the same degree of understanding what the resulting house should be, as politicians have of the result and purpose of their activities, no house would ever be finished, and whatever parts of houses happened to be built would be either collapsing or dismantled and rebuilt, as the understanding of the builders what they are doing would be constantly changing (with the changes in the 'political' climate)."

Why does LDS church teach us to build our house upon the rock (Jesus Christ), inevitably it will come to this very purpose. We cannot wait for changes in the political governemt, however, we can in gratitude to the U.S. constitution build our homes within the gospel. To think that the constitution will cause Zion to fall or weaken is the pure doubt that exist amongst the unfaithful. Just like the same who walk away from this gospel due to the difference of their own personal political understandings and lack of faith. Choose you this day whom ye will serve: … but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Josh. 24:15.)

When it comes to things pertaining to consecration it becomes above mens law, including politics, it becomes solely based on the Holy Spirit within each and everyone of us who seeks Heavenly Father.

Ex. 34:15

Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

I'm not saying to rebel against the U.S. constitution, but do not make covenants with the constition because you will indebt yourselves to the political bands. I think the Declaration Of Independence supports the very excerpt Isaiah 9:6 of the government being on the shoulder of the Counsellor Almighty God King of Peace.

Zion is a place and people who've separated from the politcal bands.

Political Bands:

Dictionary

(Political Band) (Politischer Verband) is a rulership band which order is guaranteed by physical coercion.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=political+bands&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=niTsT-LcL_LU2QXQiNmfDg&ved=0CFQQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=1e26c57afb852faf&biw=1725&bih=786

Quote an excerpt from the Declaration Of Independence:

"When in the Course of human events,

it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands

which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth,

the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,

a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation"

So Zion eventually is separating from the political bands and must declare what causes it to, that's the very evidence I see that supports that Zion is Heavenly Father's people. We will dwell in peace and none will war with us because there is no cause to war, we built our home upon the rock.

Moses 7:18 (18-19)

18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.

19 And Enoch continued his preaching in righteousness unto the people of God. And it came to pass in his days, that he built a city that was called the City of Holiness, even Zion.

Zion TG Purity:

see also Chastity; Cleanliness; Holy; Purification; Sanctification; Virtue; Wash.

Zion

2 Cor. 6:6

By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

Lev. 18:4

Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God.

A of F 1:10

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

Maybe I'm being too religious, superstitious, American, call it what you want, but I love the Church Of Jesus Christ of these Latter-day Saints it is the true church I am able to live spiritually at peace without these political governmental issues stirring chaotic deeds. The LDS Church is built and maintained by the pure of hearts, those who are faithful servants of the Lord through callings, missionary works, and living Jesus Christ gospels don't try to bring that "Political Band" into its teachings shame on those who do. Why do you think that America is diverse because we are really gathering Israel and trying to restore the Ten Tribes.

The “Other Tribes”: Which Are They?

The ?Other Tribes?: Which Are They? - Ensign Jan. 1982 - ensign

It is an oath when we baptized into the Church Of Jesus Christ Of These Latter-day Saints that we are to bring the world his light and truth. We need to spread the gospel quick for the time is nigh convert those to be worthy to stand in Holy places on earth in all nations the sole purpose of the church and temples, that's what we should be concerned about.

D&C 18: 15 (15-16)

15 And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!

16 And now, if your joy will be great with one soul that you have brought unto me into the kingdom of my Father, how great will be your joy if you should bring many souls unto me!

[skalenfehl]

Sicily, you are beginning to see the big picture. Welcome to a larger world. :)

[volgadon]

It's not a coincidence that we study the BoM each election year. A careful study of the books of Alma, Helaman and 3rd and 4th Nephi beginning with the last chapters of Mosiah will tell us why. We need to understand that we are following in the exact same footsteps over the proverbial cliff. We take liberty and the Constitution for granted. We are not learning the lessons that God has given to us, learned too late by the Nephites.

One important characteristic of a Zion people is being of a single mind. We are not. We are just as divided and lost as the rest of the population who have no idea where to find the truth.

Quotes – Latter-day Conservative

You do realise that this is not an American church.

[NeuroTypical]

We're told there will be government on the earth during the millenium. Earthly governments, staffed by humans. We'll still have nations, and lines to draw on maps. A few things I find very interesting when thinking about the millenium. First, the Lord will use deadly violence to overthrow anyone who needs overthrowing. Second, His ensuing world government will use force to obtain total obedience from individuals and nations, whether they like it or not.

The Lord will be king over all the earth, and all mankind literally under his sovereignty, and every nation under the heavens will have to acknowledge his authority, and bow to his scepter. Those who serve him in righteousness will have communications with God, and with Jesus; will have the ministering of angels, and will know the past, the present, and the future; and other people, who may not yield full obedience to his laws, nor be fully instructed in his covenants, will, nevertheless, have to yield full obedience to his government. For it will be the reign of God upon the earth, and he will enforce his laws, and command that obedience from the nations of the world which is legitimately his right

-Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor [2001], 225.

Sounds great, if you're the right sort of person. Sounds a bit challenging if you're the wrong sort. I find it interesting that even after the wholesale slaughter of the wicked, there will still be plenty of people around who need to be subdued and ruled by force.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[skalenfehl]

You do realise that this is not an American church.

I do. And I did say that. See my previous post please as quoted above with emphasis added:

...You and I have the luxury of going to church. We live in the United States. We have the freedom to worship and have salvation. They cannot have a church that preaches and teaches salvation. Is the LDS church an American church? Of course not. Do the Chinese not deserve salvation? Who is fighting for them? Who is standing up for their opportunities to read a Book of Mormon in China or North Korea?....

[Traveler]

We're told there will be government on the earth during the millenium. Earthly governments, staffed by humans. We'll still have nations, and lines to draw on maps. A few things I find very interesting when thinking about the millenium. First, the Lord will use deadly violence to overthrow anyone who needs overthrowing. Second, His ensuing world government will use force to obtain total obedience from individuals and nations, whether they like it or not.

Sounds great, if you're the right sort of person. Sounds a bit challenging if you're the wrong sort. I find it interesting that even after the wholesale slaughter of the wicked, there will still be plenty of people around who need to be subdued and ruled by force.

I was wondering - Do you think the L-rd is worried or concerned about collateral damage among the righteous when he is about "wholesale slaughter of the wicked"?

Another question - in general comes to mind - How bad does a person (or society) have to be or what does a person (or society) have to do to warrant G-d's intervention (wholesale slaughter)?

The Traveler

[skalenfehl]

We're told there will be government on the earth during the millenium. Earthly governments, staffed by humans. We'll still have nations, and lines to draw on maps. A few things I find very interesting when thinking about the millenium. First, the Lord will use deadly violence to overthrow anyone who needs overthrowing. Second, His ensuing world government will use force to obtain total obedience from individuals and nations, whether they like it or not.

Sounds great, if you're the right sort of person. Sounds a bit challenging if you're the wrong sort. I find it interesting that even after the wholesale slaughter of the wicked, there will still be plenty of people around who need to be subdued and ruled by force.

I cannot decide if you are being sarcastic. Do you really believe Jesus Christ condescended below us all (D&C 122) to purchase us from sin and death only to force us to be righteous? Zion is a government for the pure in heart, by the pure in heart. What pure heart, even that of a child, will require coercion and subjugation by another? The entire point of our existence is to come unto Christ of our own free will. We the people subjugate ourselves freely just as Christ subjugated himself freely. The Law of Sacrifice can demand no less of us than it did our own God and Creator. Those who do not wish to live as such have other places prepared for their own states of heart. And their glory will be that of either the stars or the moon or for the select few who rejected the light entirely, perdition. In Zion, we will be self governing. That is the nature of a truly free and righteous society.

[Traveler]

...

The entire point of our existence is to come unto Christ of our own free will.

...

Hmmmm - I thought we did that in the per-existance. I thought the point of our mortal existence was to learn (by experience) the good from the evil?

The Traveler

[skalenfehl]

Hmmmm - I thought we did that in the per-existance. I thought the point of our mortal existence was to learn (by experience) the good from the evil?

The pre-existence was the pre-game. The preparation. The foundation of the plan of salvation was the creation of earth for the Fall to bring about our mortality so that while we're learning to choose good or evil, we are free to make that choice being enticed by one or the other. Lehi explained this to us. The whole point of learning between good and evil is to make that choice. And this life is the time that we make that choice. Alma taught us this. No one comes to the Father but by me. I am the way. I am the gate. Jesus Christ taught us this. That is the entire point and function of baptism and also receiving our endowments. To choose eternal life (life with God in the Celestial Kingdom) or death in hell with all who reject that path.

[Misshalfway]

baloney.

Also for all your quoting I dont see where we are told what to do in politics. I remember the pharisees were so enamored of Christ because of all their learning.

skalenfehl, I am sorry that you feel that any one with half a brain will obviously agree with you. I must have left my literate brain in the dirty laundry because this brain does not read any of your many quotes as telling me that tea is good for our nation and we will collapse without it.

I like this quote. "Elder Dallin Oaks: I find some wisdom in liberalism, some wisdom in conservatism, and much truth in intellectualism-but I find no salvation in any of them. Ensign, Feb. 1987, 68"

Now we go to church for one reason. Salvation. Why would we preach and teach in church that has no salvation in it? The answer is we dont. We are told NOT to preach or teach it. How about if we follow the very clear instructions of the Church on this?

That's right. We'll all be sweet and polite at church and we'll save all our mudslinging for LDS.net.

(BTW...LOVE the Oaks quote. :) )

[Traveler]

The pre-existence was the pre-game. The preparation. The foundation of the plan of salvation was the creation of earth for the Fall to bring about our mortality so that while we're learning to choose good or evil, we are free to make that choice being enticed by one or the other. Lehi explained this to us. The whole point of learning between good and evil is to make that choice. And this life is the time that we make that choice. Alma taught us this. No one comes to the Father but by me. I am the way. I am the gate. Jesus Christ taught us this. That is the entire point and function of baptism and also receiving our endowments. To choose eternal life (life with God in the Celestial Kingdom) or death in hell with all who reject that path.

I submit to you the thought that in the pre-existence we knew a lot more about Christ and understood much more about the results of our "choices" than we do here.

It is my observation that few make actual choices in this life but are very dependent on their circumstance much more than on free will choices.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

The pre-existence was the pre-game. The preparation. The foundation of the plan of salvation was the creation of earth for the Fall to bring about our mortality so that while we're learning to choose good or evil, we are free to make that choice being enticed by one or the other. Lehi explained this to us. The whole point of learning between good and evil is to make that choice. And this life is the time that we make that choice. Alma taught us this. No one comes to the Father but by me. I am the way. I am the gate. Jesus Christ taught us this. That is the entire point and function of baptism and also receiving our endowments. To choose eternal life (life with God in the Celestial Kingdom) or death in hell with all who reject that path.

Sorry - I missed a question - Why do we do work for the dead? If this life we make the choice?

The Traveler

[skalenfehl]

I see where you are going with this. Not everyone in this mortal life has had the chance to learn and make an educated choice to accept or reject the gospel. I will break it down for you like this. And I hope it doesn't detract too far from the topic at hand, although we are now delving into the politics of the Kingdom of God. When Christ died on the cross, He went to the spirit world to teach the countless souls who had not made a that important choice. We do work for the dead by proxy in the temple who are in spirit prison who can make that choice after they have been educated or enlightened by messengers/missionaries:

1. Spirit Prison

1Peter 3:18-20

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

2. We can progress in Spirit Prison to a certain degree only. If someone had a chance to accept the gospel in this life and refused it, they go to Spirit Prison in the Postmortal Existence. They will have one more chance in Spirit Prison to accept the Gospel. If they do, they may inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom but that is as far as they will progress. Here's the full scope of our post mortal reward:

There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion, expressed by our obedience to the Lord's commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have "received the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:51; see also D&C 76:74, 79, 101).

Celestial Kingdom

The celestial kingdom is the highest of the three kingdoms of glory. Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. This should be your goal: to inherit celestial glory and to help others receive that great blessing as well. Such a goal is not achieved in one attempt; it is the result of a lifetime of righteousness and constancy of purpose.

The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have "received the testimony of Jesus" and been "made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood" (D&C 76:51, 69). To inherit this gift, we must receive the ordinances of salvation, keep the commandments, and repent of our sins. For a detailed explanation of those who will inherit celestial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:50–70; 76:92–96.

In January 1836 the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation that expanded his understanding of the requirements to inherit celestial glory. The heavens were opened to him, and he saw the celestial kingdom. He marveled when he saw his older brother Alvin there, even though Alvin had died before receiving the ordinance of baptism. (See D&C 137:1–6.) Then the voice of the Lord came to the Prophet Joseph:

"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; "Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

"For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts" (D&C 137:7–9).

Commenting on this revelation, the Prophet Joseph said, "I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven" (D&C 137:10).

From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into "the new and everlasting covenant of marriage" and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. (See D&C 131:1–4.) All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.

Terrestrial Kingdom

Those who inherit terrestrial glory will "receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun" (D&C 76:77–78). Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people "who were blinded by the craftiness of men" (D&C 76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73–74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants D&C 76:71–80, 91, 97.

Telestial Kingdom

Telestial glory will be reserved for individuals who "received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:82). These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed from spirit prison, which is also called hell (see D&C 76:84, D&C 76:106). A detailed explanation of those who will inherit telestial glory is found in Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–90, 98–106, 109–112.

Perdition

Some people will not be worthy to dwell in any kingdom of glory. They will be called "the sons of perdition" and will have to "abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory" (D&C 76:32; 88:24). This will be the state of "those who know [God's] power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy [God's] power" (D&C 76:31; see also D&C 76:30, 32–49).

[skalenfehl]

I submit to you the thought that in the pre-existence we knew a lot more about Christ and understood much more about the results of our "choices" than we do here.

It is my observation that few make actual choices in this life but are very dependent on their circumstance much more than on free will choices.

The Traveler

I agree. And it us up to us through our diligence and obedience to part the veil so that we can come to understand once again. per Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

Wherefore, we again say, search the revelations of God; study the prophecies, and rejoice that God grants unto the world Seers and Prophets. They are they who saw the mysteries of godliness; they saw the flood before it came; they saw angels ascending and descending upon a ladder that reached from earth to heaven; they saw the stone cut out of the mountain, which filled the whole earth; they saw the Son of God come from the regions of bliss and dwell with men on earth; they saw the deliverer come out of Zion, and turn away ungodliness from Jacob; they saw the glory of the Lord when he showed the transfiguration of the earth on the mount; they saw every mountain laid low and every valley exalted when the Lord was taking vengeance upon the wicked; they saw truth spring out of the earth, and righteousness look down from heaven in the last days, before the Lord came the second time to gather his elect; they saw the end of wickedness on earth, and the Sabbath of creation crowned with peace; they saw the end of the glorious thousand years, when Satan was loosed for a little season; they saw the day of judgment when all men received according to their works, and they saw the heaven and the earth flee away to make room for the city of God, when the righteous receive an inheritance in eternity.

And, fellow sojourners upon earth, it is your privilege to purify yourselves and come up to the same glory, and see for yourselves, and know for yourselves. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.--E&MS August, 1832. DHC 1:282-284.

Nephi taught us how we can come unto Christ. This is the pattern!

2 Nephi 32

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray, ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.

And the Lord tells us the same much more concisely:

D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am

" Then I would exhort you to go on and continue to call upon God until you make your calling and election sure for yourselves, by obtaining this more sure word of prophecy, and wait patiently for the promise until you obtain it."--Joseph Smith

I believe that the first and foremost purpose of the Book of Mormon is to testify of the divinity of Jesus Christ, that we may seek Him. It is a road map to find him. Nephi very specifically showed us how. Joseph Smith added upon this. We are the fruit of the olive trees in the vineyard of the great allegory of Zenos. It is up us to determine whether we will be the good fruit that is laid up against the season (Millennium).

Our greatest privilege is to seek and receive the Second Comforter.

Edited June 28, 2012 by skalenfehl

[NeuroTypical]

I was wondering - Do you think the L-rd is worried or concerned about collateral damage among the righteous when he is about "wholesale slaughter of the wicked"?

Interesting thing to be wondering... I don't know what "worries" Jesus Christ these days, or what will "worry" Him in the future. I'm not sure how to access such information. I certainly don't have any revealed insight on the matter. I suspect that the trials and tribulations of folks concern him now and in the future. He wouldn't be much of a King if he wasn't concerned about His people, right?

Another question - in general comes to mind - How bad does a person (or society) have to be or what does a person (or society) have to do to warrant G-d's intervention (wholesale slaughter)?

Pretty much all I know about the issue comes from the Gospel Principles manual. It answers your question in various chapters - here is a little from Chapter 44:

What Will Jesus Do When He Comes Again?

[...]

1. He will cleanse the earth. When Jesus comes again, He will come in power and great glory. At that time the wicked will be destroyed. All things that are corrupt will be burned, and the earth will be cleansed by fire (see D&C 101:24–25).

2. He will judge His people. When Jesus comes again, He will judge the nations and will divide the righteous from the wicked (see Matthew 25:31–46; see also chapter 46 in this book).

[...]

The wicked who are living at the time of the Second Coming of the Lord will be destroyed in the flesh. [...](see D&C 76:32–33, 81–112).

So to answer your question, I honestly don't know how bad a person or society has to be. I lack the tools to judge righeously in the matter. Fortunately, I'm not the one in charge of judging, or separating out the wicked, or destroying them in the flesh. Christ will apparently be doing all that.

Do you really believe Jesus Christ condescended below us all (D&C 122) to purchase us from sin and death only to force us to be righteous?

Well, John Taylor seemed to believe so. You doubt him?

Zion is a government for the pure in heart, by the pure in heart. What pure heart, even that of a child, will require coercion and subjugation by another?

I can only speculate. But again, I'm not inventing the concept of people being forced to acknowledge Christ as ruler and Master. Again, John Taylor figures "every nation under the heavens will have to acknowledge his authority". I don't know about you, but the "Have to" in his statement leads me to believe some of them would rather not. Similarly, "other people [...] will, nevertheless, have to yield full obedience to his government"

I mean, I hear what you're saying, about how the whole earth will just accept and things will be fine and voluntary. That line of thinking seems to be in direct conflict with John Taylor's thoughts about the matter, when he says "he will enforce his laws, and command that obedience from the nations of the world" I don't know why anyone would enforce laws and command obedience, from people who will willingly follow laws and would never think of disobeying. Why do you think John Taylor said such things?

I'm hardly picking some obscure quotes here. I'm copying and pasting directly from the Teachings of our Presidents manuals we study in Priesthood/Relief Society.

We the people subjugate ourselves freely just as Christ subjugated himself freely. The Law of Sacrifice can demand no less of us than it did our own God and Creator. Those who do not wish to live as such have other places prepared for their own states of heart. And their glory will be that of either the stars or the moon or for the select few who rejected the light entirely, perdition. In Zion, we will be self governing. That is the nature of a truly free and righteous society.

Sounds like your argument is with John Taylor, not with me.

[Guest]

“Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.” Thomas Jefferson

<snip>

Sicily, you have a narrow definition of politics.

Apolitical is not the opposite of political. Apolitical means you don't side with a specific political party. Your definition of politics, in my observation is narrowed down to partisan politics only. Politics goes way beyond Republican versus Democrat or conservatives versus liberal.

This is the simple definition of politics. I even used google so we can be on the same page:

politics

Noun:

1.The activities associated with the governance of a country or area.

2.The activities of governments concerning the political relations between countries.

It's really as simple as that. So that, things like making laws - whether you're a republic, a dictatorship, or a theocracy, is a political activity. In the time of Moses, for example, the Ten Commandments were laws that governed the people. The institution of the Ten Commandments was a political activity.

Politics, to me, does not hold a negative connotation in a Theocracy with Jesus Christ as the ruler. It is merely the activities that Jesus Christ and the Holy Order of the Priesthood do to govern the people. No other political parties involved, no arguments or debates over which policy is better than the other, no grumbling over new policies installed.

Today, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as an organization has a political structure as well with Pres. Monson as the ruler and certain authorities and presidencies dissiminating authority. No, we don't have different political ideologies as a Church in the way the Church is governed. When we raise our hands at Stake Conference or Ward Conference to sustain our Church Leadership, we are engaging in a political activity as well.

In business, the business usually follows a political structure as well - with the CEO or proprietor as the ruler. Posturing for a managerial promotion, therefore, is a political activity within that organization.

As you can see, politics is a very broad term. If you want to narrow it down to partisanship, then sure, I'll agree with the main gist of what you have said in all your posts.

And a caveat... I'm Filipino. English is my 3rd language. I usually go by the general definition of English words instead of its purely American connotations (which I may not even know about). So, if you're using politics in an American usage that is different than my understanding of the word then I apologize.

[skalenfehl]

I'm hardly picking some obscure quotes here. I'm copying and pasting directly from the Teachings of our Presidents manuals we study in Priesthood/Relief Society.

Sounds like your argument is with John Taylor, not with me.

Context. I think I understand what he's getting at. What page, please(S)? I'd like to study it out.

Edited June 28, 2012 by skalenfehl

[skalenfehl]

I'm hardly picking some obscure quotes here. I'm copying and pasting directly from the Teachings of our Presidents manuals we study in Priesthood/Relief Society.

Sounds like your argument is with John Taylor, not with me.

To quote John Taylor from Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor:

“Thy kingdom come.” [Matthew 6:10.] … This was taught by Jesus to his disciples when they came to him, saying, teach us to pray. … Thy kingdom come. What kingdom? What is the meaning of “thy kingdom come”? It means the rule of God. It means the law of God. It means the government of God. It means the people who have listened to and who are willing to listen to and observe the commands of Jehovah. And it means that there is a God who is willing to guide and direct and sustain his people. Thy kingdom come, that thy government may be established, and the principles of eternal truth...

...Those who serve him in righteousness will have communications with God, and with Jesus; will have the ministering of angels, and will know the past, the present, and the future; and **other people**, who may not yield full obedience to his laws, nor be fully instructed in his covenants, will, nevertheless, have to yield full obedience to his government. For it will be the reign of God upon the earth, and he will enforce his laws, and command that obedience from the nations of the world which is legitimately his right. Satan will not then be permitted to control its inhabitants, for the Lord God will be king over all the earth, and the kingdom and greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven will be given to the saints."

There will be both Celestial and **Terrestrial** citizens of Zion during the Millennium. Those who are Terrestrial will still be bound by laws. Now think back to the laws that you have covenanted to obey in the temple (endowment) that the rest of the world has not. You will then begin to understand what John Taylor was talking about. I see nothing about his writings so far that are not in line with what I have posted.

Edited June 28, 2012 by skalenfehl

[NeuroTypical]

For it will be the reign of God upon the earth, and he will enforce his laws, and command that obedience from the nations of the world which is legitimately his right.

So I guess I'm confused then. We seem to be saying the same thing, which is basically cutting and pasting what John Taylor said. What are we arguing about again? Are you taking issue with my use of the word "force", thinking it out of alignment with Taylor's use of the word "enforce"?

There will be both Celestial and **Terrestrial** citizens of Zion during the Millennium. Those who are Terrestrial will still be bound by laws. Now think back to the laws that you have covenanted to obey in the temple (endowment) that the rest of the world has not. You will then begin to understand what John Taylor was talking about.

I'm confused. Are you saying the world won't have any more laws like the 10 commandments or civil rights or misdemeanors or felonies - only things like the law of the endowment?

I don't get it. If there will be terrestrial folks on earth, well, our prisons are full of "honorable people who were blinded by the craftiness of men". If it's going to be the same way during the millenium, tell me again how obediance to the Kingdom of the Lord won't require force?

Edited June 29, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[skalenfehl]

Are you taking issue with my use of the word "force", thinking it out of alignment with Taylor's use of the word "enforce"?

I do believe that's were we are misunderstanding each other.

I don't get it. If there will be terrestrial folks on earth, well, our prisons are full of "honorable people who were blinded by the craftiness of men". If it's going to be the same way during the millenium, tell me again how obediance to the Kingdom of the Lord won't require force?

This is why Joseph Smith advocated rehabilitation of imprisoned. We are living in a world of men and man's laws, which have continually deviated from the pure constitutional law of our founding fathers. We are trusting in the arm of flesh. At least almost all of mankind does. When Christ returns, Telestial people will simply not be able to abide His glory. This is why when He returns they will burn as stubble. As an analogy, you can't look at the sun and not look away without going blind. Christ will return and those who did not live Celestial and Terrestrial laws will be destroyed.

Telestial bodies will dwell in prison for a thousand years. Satan will be bound. He'll have no power over those on the earth simply because of their righteousness (which is a natural result of obedience). Obedience to Terrestrial laws result in being able to abide a Terrestrial glory. Likewise for Celestial glory. And those living in those two "states" simply have no desire to be devilish, carnal, sinful, etc because we will be in Christ's presence without tempation and because we have already lived those laws. How will all this be enforced? The best way I can explain it is this:

You and I are law abiding citizens. We believe in coming to a full stop at an intersection because we see a stop sign. We also will not enter a temple if we do not have a temple recommend. We don't have temple police, do we? Who, while in Christ's presence, will enter a temple during the Millennium, who is not authorized to enter and labor therin? How do you think it will be enforced? Do you see what I'm getting at? Beyond this I cannot really explain as we're not there yet.

Edited June 29, 2012 by skalenfehl