Other religions

[Heber13]

Hello all.

It seems to me that we regularly recognize the good in other religions. Any good that brings people closer to God has truth in it, but we claim as Mormons more revealed truth, or greater collection of truth. The quotes are often about truth is found in many sources, but bring all that to the Mormon church and we will add unto it.

This is a comforting response to those who believe the Church is the "one true" church. It can be a bit offensive to others, obviously.

But I really want to hear from this group why we would think God would work and offer salvation for such a small group of His children? Temple work for the dead is a nice thought, but it doesn't make sense to me when this mortal life is so important in our test.

If I think this church is one way to God, but not the only way, am I on dangerous ground?

I have so many friends outside the church that are such wonderful good people, I'm not sure they NEED to convert. They are pretty dang good people now.

What do you all think about other religions being just as good as the Mormon church, as long as they help people develop Christ-like qualities?

[skippy740]

Heber13,

I feel uniquely qualified to answer your question having served my mission in the "bible belt".

A true litmus test of whether someone was truly ready for the gospel was in the (old) 3rd discussion where the Lord said "This is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth." Their answer would tell me where they're headed in their study and spiritual conversion.

When they feel the spirit and feel the need for ongoing continuous revelation to the church (and individually) and the priesthood authority to direct the Lord's work, that's when they are ready.

But most churches bring people to do good work. When I think of how other churches take care of homeless, battered women, drug abuse and other calamnities that others face that (to me in California) aren't being addressed much by the church, I am humbled by their good works. (There may be a great focus of this service in Utah where the church has a greater influence, but I just don't see it here in California.)

I think that this church is the one true way to the Celestial Kingdom. The other church's are great paths to the Terrestrial Kingdom. In fact, their view and belief of heaven fits the Terrestrial Kingdom description perfectly. They simply don't know that a higher level of 'afterlife heaven' exists.

D&C 123:12

12 For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it—

These churches choose to attack our faith in the name of 'protecting their flock' (and perhaps their 'filthy lucre').

The good part is because there are so many churches, people have a choice and it is a great time to have a choice and freedom to worship. The only problem is that there are variations and versions of the truth that people don't know where to look, or they become comfortable with where they're at and have no desire to look.

IMO, if we don't get them now, we'll get them in the afterlife.

Temple work for the dead is a nice thought, but it doesn't make sense to me when this mortal life is so important in our test.

This is where the parable of the prodigal son comes in. It isn't about the good son who stayed faithful and loyal. It's about the father's response to the wayward son who chose to come back to him. The past is forgotten and forgiven.

I also do not know how the Lord will judge whether or not someone has 'received the gospel and rejected it'. Is it when the 1st set of missionaries knocks on their door? Is it when they read a verse in the Book of Mormon? When does the Lord say that they have rejected His gospel? I don't know. That's why He is the judge and not us.

[Heber13]

I think that this church is the one true way to the Celestial Kingdom. The other church's are great paths to the Terrestrial Kingdom.

That is just really hard for me to buy into. What evidence do we have that our Church is any better than any other Church? If you compare the fruits...are not other churches producing just as good of fruit as our church? Is not our church producing just as many sour fruits as those in the Bible belt that attack our religion, or other churches?

Is God really going to restrict the CK to Mormons only?

Let's say a good muslim family raises their children with devout worship, respect for their beliefs, and loving service to others in their community. In the afterlife, it is judged that their hearts were pure, they just weren't taught all truth yet. So they are taught in the spirit world and accept truth there. I would think they could enjoy blessings from God based on their level of knowledge and their hearts. Right?

Then why do we care if people receive ordinances in this life or not? It works out either way, more important is their hearts and the qualities they develop.

If God will be the judge, why do we condemn all other religions to less than CK status?

[Anddenex]

But I really want to hear from this group why we would think God would work and offer salvation for such a small group of His children?

Before I touch on this quote, I would like to say, "I second what Skippy shared."

Now, in providing some thoughts by which you may want to ponder, if you think it is noteworthy.

First, it was never intended by God that a "small group of His children" would be offered salvation.

If Adam's children from the beginning of time would have kept the commandments, followed God's counsel, and lived faithful lives --- all of God's children would be under one umbrella, this umbrella being as Christ said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life."

Second, as a result of our agency, God will not force any child to come unto Him. Unfortunately, as a result of our agency, children tend to be sufferers of a parents agency. An example, would be members who have left.

Due to our agency, scriptures have shown that men are prone to have "itching ears", or to seek after doctrine which pleases them, as with Korihor, Nehor, etc...

I believe, the children, of those who have had parents who have rebelled, will experience greater mercy, than the parents who originally rebelled (e.g. Cain and his offspring). This is evidenced in the Book of Mormon when the Nephites are high and mighty and the Lord says to them, that their skins will be whiter than theirs because their faults are due to the choice of their parents.

With this mercy, I am positive, this also fulfills the idea that God doesn't just save a small portion of His children.

Third, as a result of men's choice, many religions have resulted. In order to keep within the bounds of faith, God provides servants, prophets, to teach and bring children back into the fold.

This will allow all the children of God to have opportunity to hear and know the gospel via their experience or through proxy as within the temple.

Finally, missionary work, imagine if we all listened to the counsel of David O. McKay, "Every member a missionary" and actually sought out the elect as we did on our missions. If every member desired this, seeking the elect (Note: on my mission when we found an elect, even through knocking doors, it was usually 2-3 months before they were baptized, but surely within a year.

Our membership is around 13 million, let's speculate about 3 million adults. If each member brought in 1 person a year, after 4 years we would at 24 million members. Give that another four years (assuming 6 million adults), then we would be at 48 million members, give it another 4 years (9 million adults), the church would be at 84 million, and so on.

Thus I would say, that the blessing isn't to a "small group" of people, but is for all, however, God will not interfere with our agency to head or disobey His counsel.

Great question.

[skippy740]

Good questions! I have limited time, so let's see what I can write in the next few minutes.

What evidence do we have that our Church is any better than any other Church?

"Better" is a term that (I believe) that Satan will use to distract us. I believe in D&C 1:30 because the Lord spoke it to the Prophet Joseph.

Is God really going to restrict the CK to Mormons only?

The term "Mormons" is a secular word to describe members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

Will God restrict the Celestial Kingdom to those who have accepted His gospel, entered in by the way and endured to the end? Yes.

Let's say a good muslim family raises their children with devout worship, respect for their beliefs, and loving service to others in their community. In the afterlife, it is judged that their hearts were pure, they just weren't taught all truth yet. So they are taught in the spirit world and accept truth there. I would think they could enjoy blessings from God based on their level of knowledge and their hearts. Right?

D&C 137: 5-8

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

Then why do we care if people receive ordinances in this life or not? It works out either way, more important is their hearts and the qualities they develop.

The Lord needs laborers to work in His vineyard, not just 'deathbed repentance'.

The Lord is merciful unto us all, but of whom much is given, much is expected.

Matthew 20:1-16

1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

If God will be the judge, why do we condemn all other religions to less than CK status?

Who said we were condemning other religions?

John 14:2

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Not everyone wants or desires the Celestial Kingdom. And it's not fair to impose that upon everyone. This is a gospel of freedom and choice. The other religions will and do lead others to Christ. Unfortunately, they do not have the full gospel, priesthood, ordinances and authority that Christ bestowed upon Joseph Smith for the restoring of the church today.

[Heber13]

Thanks Skippy. Good scriptures. It gives me something to ponder, because those answers don't seem to satisfy me yet.

I really, really like the free agency answers, but not many people have the agency to choose to receive the ordinances in this life, it is just so limited to such a small group. That is what doesn't make it sit well with me. I think I get hung up on that, and then the whole thing kinda falls apart for me. If everyone had a fair and equal opportunity...then ya...no problem...those answers make sense.

But realistically, it isn't a fair and equal playing field. And at the same time, my experience with other religions and other friends and neighbors does not provide me any observable evidence LDS devout followers are any better off than devout followers of other good religions.

I will give it some thought and try to post some additional questions.

[bytor2112]

But realistically, it isn't a fair and equal playing field. And at the same time, my experience with other religions and other friends and neighbors does not provide me any observable evidence LDS devout followers are any better off than devout followers of other good religions.

I agree, perhaps our "calling" is different. Remember that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah. This is our calling.....to prepare for HIS return. The Gospel of Repentance is not only proclaimed in the fullness of times, but even now in the Spirit world and to continue during the Millennial reign of Christ.

[Heber13]

bytor...

if you are suggesting we might have a stewardship to fulfill...I think you are on to something.

And I would also add, our stewardship does not need to include elitism and talking in class on Sunday that we are favored or privileged above other religions. We just have our place in God's plan, and we can accept that other religions may have their place too.

We do not need to think we are better. Rameumptums don't get us closer to the CK.

[bytor2112]

bytor...

if you are suggesting we might have a stewardship to fulfill...I think you are on to something.

And I would also add, our stewardship does not need to include elitism and talking in class on Sunday that we are favored or privileged above other religions. We just have our place in God's plan, and we can accept that other religions may have their place too.

We do not need to think we are better. Rameumptums don't get us closer to the CK.

Yes....stewardship and as for elitism...maybe just a ......titch? :)

[Sicily510]

But I really want to hear from this group why we would think God would work and offer salvation for such a small group of His children?

In regards to this question it’s to my understanding that we are offered more than just salvation as individuals we are rewarded in exaltation by our good works and deeds during this temporal sphere. May I quote Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorums of the Twelve Apostles stated that “In God’s eternal plan, salvation is an individual matter; exaltation is a family matter.”

In the scriptures we as individuals are given a symbolic message that Heavenly Father is an all-knowing compassionate father and that he is of order and natural laws. Heavenly Father is whom Jesus Christ came down to this earth to proclaim, our savior was willing to serve Heavenly Father and to express symbolic truth of Heavenly Fathers compassion for us. Through our beloved Savior Jesus Christ can we only be able to dwell in Heavenly Fathers Kingdom. Only Jesus Christ’s divine perfect examples and teachings show us the intricate straight and narrow path to eternal salvation and eternal exaltation. It’s apparent that many come to a point in their life to question who they are, what their purpose in life is.

Some are introduced to this gospel but are very unspiritual and some are very spiritual yet puffed in pride. Some don’t come upon this church through seeking but through the examples that a member has bestowed upon them through good works and/or deeds, or family events such as family home evenings, family reunions, and genealogy. It’s very hard to teach and preach the word of Heavenly Father, when people are not in the state of inheriting such spiritual matters, even when people are in the trance of iniquity and accustomed to evil things for its sufferable. I myself was very resistant to this gospel in my youth because I was going through trials and tribulations, I was angry with Heavenly Father in regards to things bad or wrong that happened to me as a child. I learned through this church that parents are to be held accountable for the things that happen to their children when young. It makes perfect sense, we are to protect our children and teach them to protect themselves if someone tries to do something inappropriate to them. Shield them with the armors of the Holy Ghost so that they can prevent being in a situation that can harm them.

The temple work is relevant to this teachings and gospel of Christ:

D&C 76:50-70

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.

64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.

65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.

67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.

68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.

69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.

70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.

If I think this church is one way to God, but not the only way, am I on dangerous ground?

That’s for you to discern, not for others to tell you what is right or wrong and what is true and not true. I think when we truly seek Heavenly Father he enlightens us with wisdom beyond our own mental capacity even astronomy testifies to his powers man neither is capable of implementing such thoughts nor are we able to wrought such deeds. We are in the process of learning and cannot fully understand until we’ve accomplished his master plan of living in the light Jesus Christ. I would recommend though that as a member of this church, we are to be faithful and true to the faith. I understand that many will think that we are a self-righteous religion, but we are just like anyone else capable of trials and struggles yet we use the parables and sound doctrines that keep us upright with our eyes single to the glory of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Enlighten those who question this church through good works and good deeds, many will speak of the good things they do but lack to do it consistently. Many will do it consistently but lack to understand the purpose of such labor, it’s to help lift another’s burden so that it may be light not just to collect achievements in service and display it like a trophy. Understanding our Savior Jesus Christ he walked with concerns of helping all spiritually and physically, all he ask of us is to live like him. He is laid the foundation and we must build upon it line upon line. I’m so grateful for his love and atonement that I do stand so amazed and rejoice for this is a man “Pure in heart”.

I have so many friends outside the church that are such wonderful good people, I'm not sure they NEED to convert. They are pretty dang good people now.

Understand that this is not about converting but informing and engaging in teaching your friends about Jesus Christ gospel. Our savior was perfect in all that he did and taught; the fact that you informed them leaves it in their mind, body, and soul to choose whether they want to acquire more of it. I’m sure that your actions will determine whether they will seek, and that’s why it’s very important to be good examples of this faith. Even some members needs ordained members to replenish, chasten, and encourage exalting spiritually in the church.

What do you all think about other religions being just as good as the Mormon church, as long as they help people develop Christ-like qualities?

I think it’s very wonderful that there are other religions that are helping others to develop Christ-like qualities. Yes many are able to develop Christ-like qualities; however, many are not able to understand the exaltation from our individual covenant made with heavenly father. I read about the law of Sariah because I was confused about the polygamy issue. I read D&C 132:28-39, and it enlightened me about the Priesthood power.

I believe that the priesthood power is a key essential for all of the worthy men’s to inherit. I don’t think it’s bias at all at the fact that these men are willing to be spiritually worthily prepared to take upon a very spiritual demanding duty. This church has taught in a very meek way that we each are to administer Heavenly Fathers works it’s not just pertaining to one gender. What I love about this church is it's working from the inside spiritually on out, we are to discern once we have that spiritual knowledge. I truly believe there is more to just being resurrected we have eternal exaltation and that's through the deeds, works, and all pertaining to the light of Christ. That's why, We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

[Anddenex]

If everyone had a fair and equal opportunity...then ya...no problem...those answers make sense.

However there are three important pillars of truth: the pre-mortal life, earth life, and our immortal life. Or, one might say three chapters in a story book.

We first learn in scripture, that all men have been instructed sufficiently the knowledge between good and evil.

"And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever." (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi, Chapter 2)

When did this teaching occur? It would only make sense in the pre-mortal existence, because not all receive the same teaching and instruction of good and evil in this life.

It is also declared that all of God's children are provided with the "light of Christ", which allows all men to know good and from evil. This initially puts all of God's children on the same playing field.

Earth life, however, has provided a different playing field, not because it isn't fair, otherwise God would be a partial God and a respector of persons. We know that God is not a respector of persons, thus even this playing field, however it may seem to us, is still fair and just.

One thing to remember, is that it is not that we are good that saves us, it is through the merits and mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ that all, or those who choose to be saved, will be saved. I know of an individual who shared with me the reasons he was born out of the church was so that he could gain the necessary experiences in this life to be ready and accepting when the gospel was preached to him.

Another thing, it is my belief that some of God's children are placed outside of the gospel so that they can open the way for the gosepl to be preached. I would not be surprised if the Russian leader who brought down communism in Russia, was one of these brothers. If this was his call, then I see no reason why salvation would be denied him. However, he still would have to receive the gospel, whether it was preached in this life, or in the next life.

The final chapter is immortal life, which also constitutes those spirits who are taught in prison, and provided the opportunity to gain Salvation.

These three pillars of truth place all of God's children on the same playing field. If your good neighbors, do not accept the gospel whether in this life or in the next, then "no" they would not be in the same standing or favor of God, not because God is unfair or unjust, but because they chose not to accept it.

To judge the Lord's plan from reading one chapter, or one book in a triology isn't going to provide the whole picture.

I definitely agree with you, far too many members, probably myself at times, like to stand on the towers and proclaim our favor while doing nothing to help others.

Your thoughts and questions are definitely important to ponder.

[Heber13]

Anddenex makes a pretty good point...there are other chapters we cannot see or know about everyone's journey. We do know, if we are here on this earth we kept our first estate. But this 2nd Estate is a brief moment and not the only part of our eternal journey.

Pres Uchtdorf mentioned in the July 2012 ensign that we should realize we are "in the middle". I think he was teaching us not to worry too much about the timing of things, or what we see now. Where we are now is OK.

Christ also taught the parable of the laborers of the vineyard. We may think we want equal labor and equal pay from our point of view, but the Lord's ways are higher than our ways, and the person hired at the end of the day may get the same pay, and it is fair because we are all given what we need, not comparing ourselves to others' situations.

I have heard some people believe severely handicapped people or small children don't need ordinances in this life to be saved. Circumstances are different.

Perhaps the Russian leader also played his part in the vineyard. The Lord uses tame and wild olive branches to save and strengthen the trees. Perhaps CS Lewis didn't need to be mormon, or Mother Teresa, or a bunch of other noble people, including my neighbors.

I am open to the idea that others may be following God's plan for them, with or without LDS ordinances. They have their own relationship to God.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord the way we are taught, but humbly acknowledging we don't know what is needed for others. The Lord will determine that, and I will be open to learn from others, even as I share my example of following Christ's teachings to others.

[Traveler]

Hello all.

It seems to me that we regularly recognize the good in other religions. Any good that brings people closer to God has truth in it, but we claim as Mormons more revealed truth, or greater collection of truth. The quotes are often about truth is found in many sources, but bring all that to the Mormon church and we will add unto it.

This is a comforting response to those who believe the Church is the "one true" church. It can be a bit offensive to others, obviously.

But I really want to hear from this group why we would think God would work and offer salvation for such a small group of His children? Temple work for the dead is a nice thought, but it doesn't make sense to me when this mortal life is so important in our test.

If I think this church is one way to God, but not the only way, am I on dangerous ground?

I have so many friends outside the church that are such wonderful good people, I'm not sure they NEED to convert. They are pretty dang good people now.

What do you all think about other religions being just as good as the Mormon church, as long as they help people develop Christ-like qualities?

There is a very important relationship between the "True and living G-d" and the "True and living Church." It is as important to belong to the "True and Living Church" as it is to worship the "True and Living G-d".

The relationship of the true and living church to the true and living G-d is called the "Kingdom of G-d". Many churches try to define the kingdom of G-d based on doctrines as derived from interpretation of scripture. G-d has, during the course of human history provided much more than doctrine. Within the Kingdom of G-d there are ordinances, covenants and structure.

During the history of mankind many have sought for the Living G-d. In their effort they have copied as much as they possibly can from what they know of his kingdom in scripture. The prophetic symbolism in scripture for these copy cat kingdoms is given the name gentile. This is in opposition to what are identified as the kingdom or church of the devil (whose members were given the symbolic name of infidels).

A particular infidel religion (kingdom) that we learn about through scripture is call the worship of Baal and the social political structure associated with that religion is quite interesting because many in Israel thought that association to the religion of Baal did not interfere with their worship of Jehovah. But in our modern era very few have any concept of what constituted an association with the doctrine and teachings of Baal. If they did it would shake many well meaning Christians to their very core - anyway it should - but it has been my experience that in reality - very few care. Because they do not understand the very critical relationship between the "True and Living Church" and the "True and Living G-d."

The Traveler

Edited July 6, 2012 by Traveler

[Guest]

I also do not know how the Lord will judge whether or not someone has 'received the gospel and rejected it'. Is it when the 1st set of missionaries knocks on their door? Is it when they read a verse in the Book of Mormon? When does the Lord say that they have rejected His gospel? I don't know. That's why He is the judge and not us.

We don't really know except that I'm fairly certain that it is not when a missionary knocks on the door or when they read the first verse of scripture... It is when you have gained a spiritual witness - a testimony - of the truth then turned your back on it. Right? I mean, my understanding is we are judged according to our knowledge. Knowledge is not knowledge until you believe it to be true.

[Misshalfway]

I appreciate the questions in this thread. I've come up against similar arguments in my own individual wrestlings. I've come to the conclusion that God is doing much more than we think He is. Why would he only give the "truth" to a small group? I really don't know. It says in the scriptures that we see through a glass darkly. I really think that is what happens when we start "fighting" over which church is true and who the "sinners" are.

Maybe our humaness makes us grow some haughtiness tares right next to our testimony filled wheat. Maybe our limited testimonies, or limited views of what God wants make us too judgmental of others....and of our own. OR...maybe we need the limited view. The "blacks" and "whites" of it gives us a psuedo sense of security. It's like our own self inflicted law of moses. It makes us feel "right" and "sure" because we can measure righteousness in some way. It's an understandable thing to do. It helps us deal with the inherent ambiguity that comes with earth life, and the search for truth, even with the reception of sure revelation and with all the clarity the restoration brings.

All I can decide is that there are many line upon lines, and much required discerning to find better/broader understanding. And I think that if we are too attached to our own "law of moses"-like beliefs, then it prevents the Lord from showing us all the stuff he is doing outside the box.

[Timpman]

I don't think the CK is only for Mormons at all. On the other side of the veil, people who were in other religions or no religion will have the opportunity to accept or reject the Plan of Salvation and its ordinances and have the chance to go to the CK.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Timpman

[Timpman]

I am open to the idea that others may be following God's plan for them, with or without LDS ordinances. They have their own relationship to God.

Absolutely! Heavenly Father could have said to someone during the pre-existence "I am sending you to a place on earth where you will not learn about the Gospel. Just do the best you can and it's okay."

Those you really learn of the Gospel, though, are better off accepting it here and now.

[jb789]

Hello all.

What do you all think about other religions being just as good as the Mormon church, as long as they help people develop Christ-like qualities?

I think this is a great question - myself I've thought a lot about this, and have done a fair amount of study into Eastern philosophies such as Buddhism and Taoism, as well the writings of Jiddu Krishnamurti (though he isn't associated with any religion/organized philosophy), and I can say there is much good in all the world's great religions. And getting a fresh perspective from them has certainly helped me be more in tune with the Spirit and draw closer to God.

At the same time, to me, the clear and fundamental difference is the Christ's Church (LDS Church) is guided by direct revelation. This is quite a stunning realization - it means that, beyond the light of Christ (which all good people have access to), our church is guided by leaders that literally communicate with God, as did prophets of old. It is more than simply learning how to live in peace (which is a very important thing!) It is having revelation, which is visions, talking with God (literally), etc, that are the fruits of Christ's true organized church.

I agree that where someone's heart is is the most important thing - we are judged ultimately by our receptivity to truth, and if we love God and fellow men. All inspired leaders of various religions/philosphies have lived according to the light they had, the best they could - and if this isn't criteria for inheriting the Celestial Kingdom, I don't know what is!

Nonetheless, being guided by the light of Christ is not the same as a church founded directly by God, with revelation. Joesph Smith saw God! This is different then being guided by the light of Christ, it is a striking experience that blows all doubt out of the water - it is truly "not of this world".

So, I very much agree that the founders of the world's great religions are inspired by God - they are inspired men, teaching according to the light within them. Yet, God's organized church was founded by Him, through revelation - this is the critical difference. And all who live according to the light within them, will surely be receptive to this truth when (in this life or the next) it is presented to them.

[Vort]

Hello all.

It seems to me that we regularly recognize the good in other religions. Any good that brings people closer to God has truth in it, but we claim as Mormons more revealed truth, or greater collection of truth. The quotes are often about truth is found in many sources, but bring all that to the Mormon church and we will add unto it.

This is a comforting response to those who believe the Church is the "one true" church. It can be a bit offensive to others, obviously.

But I really want to hear from this group why we would think God would work and offer salvation for such a small group of His children? Temple work for the dead is a nice thought, but it doesn't make sense to me when this mortal life is so important in our test.

If I think this church is one way to God, but not the only way, am I on dangerous ground?

I have so many friends outside the church that are such wonderful good people, I'm not sure they NEED to convert. They are pretty dang good people now.

What do you all think about other religions being just as good as the Mormon church, as long as they help people develop Christ-like qualities?

They cannot qualify for exaltation outside the LDS Church.

Let me repeat that:

They cannot qualify for exaltation outside the LDS Church.

The LDS Church is the vehicle for Jesus Christ's gospel today. There is no other vehicle. If you want to enjoy celestial glory, it is not enough to be a good guy. You must make and then keep sacred covenants with God. Those covenants are available only through the LDS Church. No other church or organization can provide them.

Bottom line: If you are not LDS (or the postmortal equivalent thereof), you will never, ever gain exaltation. Period.

[annewandering]

They cannot qualify for exaltation outside the LDS Church.

Let me repeat that:

They cannot qualify for exaltation outside the LDS Church.

The LDS Church is the vehicle for Jesus Christ's gospel today. There is no other vehicle. If you want to enjoy celestial glory, it is not enough to be a good guy. You must make and then keep sacred covenants with God. Those covenants are available only through the LDS Church. No other church or organization can provide them.

Bottom line: If you are not LDS (or the postmortal equivalent thereof), you will never, ever gain exaltation. Period.

But you can gain this knowledge after death and through proxy ordinances receive the blessing.

[Timpman]

They cannot qualify for exaltation outside the LDS Church.

Let me repeat that:

They cannot qualify for exaltation outside the LDS Church.

The LDS Church is the vehicle for Jesus Christ's gospel today. There is no other vehicle. If you want to enjoy celestial glory, it is not enough to be a good guy. You must make and then keep sacred covenants with God. Those covenants are available only through the LDS Church. No other church or organization can provide them.

Bottom line: If you are not LDS (or the postmortal equivalent thereof), you will never, ever gain exaltation. Period.

Vort doesn't mess around! It's important to not overlook his words "or the postmortal equivalent thereof".

[Vort]

But you can gain this knowledge after death and through proxy ordinances receive the blessing.

In that case, you will have made and kept the sacred covenants, and will be LDS (or the functional equivalent thereof).

The bottom line is that it's not enough to be a good guy/gal. The Church is indeed for all. There is no other way.

[Vort]

Vort doesn't mess around! It's important to not overlook his words "or the postmortal equivalent thereof".

Focusing on that phrase is problematic. Elder McConkie told the following story:

I knew a man, now deceased, not a member of the Church, who was a degenerate old reprobate who found pleasure, as he supposed, in living after the manner of the world. A cigarette dangled from his lips, alcohol stenched his breath, and profane and bawdy stories defiled his lips. His moral status left much to be desired.

His wife was a member of the Church, as faithful as she could be under the circumstances. One day she said to him, "You know the Church is true; why won't you be baptized?" He replied, "Of course I know the Church is true, but I have no intention of changing my habits in order to join it. I prefer to live the way I do. But that doesn't worry me in the slightest. I know that as soon as I die, you will have someone go to the temple and do the work for me and everything will come out all right in the end anyway."

He died and she did, and it was a complete and total waste of time.

There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

For those who do not have an opportunity to believe and obey the holy word in this life, the first chance to gain salvation will come in the spirit world. If those who hear the word for the first time in the realms ahead are the kind of people who would have accepted the gospel here, had the opportunity been afforded them, they will accept it there. Salvation for the dead is for those whose first chance to gain salvation is in the spirit world.

(Bolded part in original speech but modified in the reference given.)

For those who, through no fault of their own, never found the gospel, a just God will provide a way for them to enjoy the blessings of exaltation if that is their desire. But for those who simply don't want to bother right now, they should not deceive themselves that proxy ordinances provide them a magical and foolproof "second chance".

Edited July 6, 2012 by Vort

[Heber13]

But you can gain this knowledge after death and through proxy ordinances receive the blessing.

That is one explanation that could make sense to me. And because that possibility is there, perhaps the other religions are good enough to provide some people with direction to live good lives, and be judged according to the light and knowledge they were given, and God's plan allows for the righteous who can live with Him through eternity will receive their just reward.

Perhaps the LDS church, even though it has flaws and is imperfect, is good enough to bring us closer to God in the same way.

That would mean that non-LDS people have their path to exaltation, even if they never are taught the gospel in this life.

In that light, there are other ways to exaltation in this life, because, as Vort said, there may be equivalents in the next life.

But for those who simply don't want to bother right now, they should not deceive themselves that proxy ordinances provide them a magical and foolproof "second chance".

I would also add, those who are in the church who think their ordinances will provide them a magical and foolproof guarantee, but never learn to live the charity Christ exemplified, and become converted to become more like Him, also deceive themselves by thinking they are better than people of other religions just because of earthly ordinances.

[Vort]

That would mean that non-LDS people have their path to exaltation, even if they never are taught the gospel in this life.

Yes, they have their path. But their path is the same as your path; make your covenants and live them. There is no other path.

In that light, there are other ways to exaltation in this life, because, as Vort said, there may be equivalents in the next life.

You misunderstand me. There are not "other ways to exaltation in this life". The only way is through the LDS Church. Those who die without the ordinances the Church provides are not in the way to exaltation, and never will be unless they accept and embrace the doctrines of the LDS Church.

I would also add, those who are in the church who think their ordinances will provide them a magical and foolproof guarantee, but never learn to live the charity Christ exemplified, and become converted to become more like Him, also deceive themselves by thinking they are better than people of other religions just because of earthly ordinances.

While your words are true, they ring a bit hollow to me. I have never known anyone who thinks his ordinances alone provide any guarantee of exaltation, or anyone who thinks he is better than others because of the ordinances he has received. Or if I have known them, I have not known that they felt that way. Given the nature of the covenants, I rather disbelieve that almost anyone could feel as you describe. It's possible, I suppose, but I doubt it's common.