How do you avoid absolute power?

[sabastious]

I have been studying Mormonism and I am currently having regular missionary visits. My largest concern is that of your prophet and his 12 apostles. To me a detailed description of how they are elected is paramount for me to consider Mormonism a serious religion. Prophets such as Elijah could part the Jordan river which would be very good evidence of a special supernatural connection. As we all know charlatan's are not only allowed the exist, if they are good enough they flourish for long stretches of time leaving behind widespread disappointment, but full bank accounts and security for them. Even people who did not start out with a greedy intent could have been infiltrated by the greedy as religion makes a LOT of money.

My main question is how does the LDS church avoid top leadership corruption? (as in the prophet and 12 apostles) This seems to be a problem that has never been solved in an organization even the American government. I believe firmly that absolute power corrupts absolutely and I don't believe any flesh to be an exception to that rule.

What a heavy responsibility it would be to head an organization that considers itself the only authority on earth to baptize in the name of the One True God. Such a position would be very susceptible to corruption, how do you get around that whereas so many have not?

Regards,

-Sabastious

[skippy740]

You ask a very good question. However, I must ask one back to be sure we understand:

What is your definition of corruption for this question?

- Are we talking about one person trying to elevate their greed above the good of the church?

- Are we talking about one trying to hide grevious sins?

- Are we talking about prophets/apostles being imperfect?

- All of the above?

[sabastious]

What is your definition of corruption for this question?

The Jehovah's Witnesses leadership was recently prosecuted and fined millions of dollars for covering up child abuse within their ranks. Google "Candace Conti" if your interested in reading about it. The Watchtower issues secret books to their congregational leadership of which only "elders" are allowed to read which contain policies of secrecy regarding the abuse of children. Secrecy IS corruption and that's what happened to the JW religion. Their Governing Body put too much credence in their methods and looked to safeguard their reputation as a church with Christian values. Their lust for reputation has brought them to their knees.

Another good example of top level corruption would be the recent "Fast and Furious" scandal within the American government. Frankly I don't understand how these people can lose their ethics after being checked by the American voter, but it happens all the time.

What is your definition of corruption for this question?

- Are we talking about one person trying to elevate their greed above the good of the church?

- Are we talking about one trying to hide grevious sins?

- Are we talking about prophets/apostles being imperfect?

- All of the above?

Yes, I would say that all of those would be factored into the question and more. Even spiritual corruption I would add in. What if your prophet starts creating false doctrine and no one knows it? It seems like someone who leads a huge church like LDS could do anything they wanted as long as they were smart. How do you avoid this inevitable human flaw?

Regards,

-Sabastious

[skippy740]

Interesting points.

Let's start off with an obvious point: No one is immune to temptation - including the top leadership of the LDS church.

The last general authority of the church to be excommunicated was George P. Lee - who disagreed about church policy with the president of the church at that time. Later it was revealed that he sexually molested children. However, that was brought to light AFTER he was excommunicated.

As far as 'greed' may be concerned... not only do I think these men in authority have enough for their needs (either by church support funds or personal wealth), but the church is one of the largest non-profit organizations in the world. There are a LOT of accountants to certify the church's accounting at any time. I won't say that 'embezzlement' is impossible... but it would be highly unlikely.

Prophets and apostles are NOT perfect. They can make mistakes and errors... and the Lord will allow it. (If you want a good example, click on the link in my signature and watch "Blacks and the LDS Priesthood" dvd segment.)

D&C 1:24-28

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

Most importantly, is for the members of the church (or anyone for that matter) to rely upon and listen to the promptings of the holy spirit. The spirit that can guide, teach and edify us to the truths of the gospel and how we should live.

I know there's a lot of emphasis on prophets and apostles. Remember, they are spiritual advisors. Just because you join the church doesn't mean that they 'take over your life'. They are there for instruction and guidance... but you still make your own decisions for your life.

I hope that helps some!

[sabastious]

The last general authority of the church to be excommunicated was George P. Lee - who disagreed about church policy with the president of the church at that time. Later it was revealed that he sexually molested children. However, that was brought to light AFTER he was excommunicated.

What if he had been molesting children before he was called? Can the prophet choose a wrong apostle? I understand that Judas was both an apostle and a betrayer, but he wasn't a greedy betrayer when Jesus picked him or else Jesus' selection methodology should be considered highly flawed.

My father emotionally and physically abused me growing up, but the JW leadership still appointed him as a shepard of the flock. Application for elder leadership is sent to the society in Brooklyn for the the Governing Body's approval. It is said that Holy Spirit is used to make sure they are worthy of such a position. I knew, however, that my father was abusing me and was still appointed. I totally understand the concept of imperfect leaders, however appointing a leader who is not in the least bit qualified and calling it "by holy spirit" is appalling to me.

How do you know your faith is secure about men whom you don't know much about? How do you know the doctrine they come up with is in accordance with the Spirit's desires? How do you know Joseph Smith was wrong and needed to be changed? What if blacks ARE an accursed race and it was wrongly changed otherwise? How do you know what doctrine is solid when it changes over time? What methodology is used to determine why certain truths are kept from us until certain points in humanity?

Also why only a single prophet? If I remember correctly the Old Testament has certain junctures where many prophets are called at once. Paul and Barnabas were considered equals I believe in authority and rank in relation to the congregations. I know the kind of spiritual and physical carnage that can come from unqualified leadership being touted as more special than they are actually are.

Regards,

-Sabastious

[skippy740]

You ask a lot of questions, so let's see if I can help.

First, your last question - why only one Prophet? I used a capital 'P' on purpose because in our faith, the Prophet and the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints are one and the same. The rest of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve are also considered prophets, seers and revelators. (Notice the small 'p' of prophets in relation to the rest of the governing body of the church.)

Some things are still between the sinner and the Lord. The holy spirit is not the same as a 'spiritual verifyable background check' on everyone.

As far as doctrine, the church in today's day is much more mature than when it first was established. During the early years was the time that the church was most susceptible to 'widely accepted views' vs the doctrines of Christ. Today, much of the talks and messages are given about what manner of men we ought to be, versus proclaiming new doctrines.

My testimony is based on the fact that the Lord is the same yesterday, today and forever. Man's views and interpretations may change, but the Lord's intention and will has never changed.

[sabastious]

As far as doctrine, the church in today's day is much more mature than when it first was established. During the early years was the time that the church was most susceptible to 'widely accepted views' vs the doctrines of Christ. Today, much of the talks and messages are given about what manner of men we ought to be, versus proclaiming new doctrines.

In 1979 Mormonism changed it's views on the black culture by removing the "accursed" tag. That was only 34 years ago and such an alteration is a monumental change in doctrine. How are you so sure that another monumental change will not be announced at any moment? What if your prophet is seduced by the Serpent? Would that not mean that the entire Mormon church would be under the devils command until the prophet is exposed and removed?

You speak about teaching what men we ought to be, which is very good, but what about doctrine such as the Last Days in Matthew 24? Doctrine is very important, I feel like you are minimizing it's importance. Refining doctrine and simplifying is paramount for the preservation of it for further generations to come. The religion I used to be in is centered around the Last Days and says that they started in 1914. Your doctrine and covenants document interprets Revelation 14's "144,000" as High Priests that "emerge" in the Last Days to help preach the "Everlasting Gospel." Have you identified any of these "High Priests" and why did Smith only mention the title priest and not king when the term king is coupled with priests in said verse? Why would these priests be necessary if not to overcome the folly of organized religion?

Regards,

-Sabastious

Edited July 10, 2012 by sabastious

[Anddenex]

I have been studying Mormonism and I am currently having regular missionary visits. My largest concern is that of your prophet and his 12 apostles....

My main question is how does the LDS church avoid top leadership corruption?

If the true Church of Jesus Christ, or the true gospel required perfection (without corruption), then there would be no true church on this earth.

Even in the Lord's time, the Apostles warned the people of wolves in sheep clothing within the Church.

Solomon, who was once considered the wisest of all kings at the time, even fell himself to different forms of corruption.

You mention absolute power is absolutely corruptible with all flesh, and I wouldr agree, if our prophets had absolute power, which they do not. There is two people in scripture by which we know who had absolute power given them by the Father. This was Jesus Christ, and Nephi in the Book of Mormon, who was told by God he would have power to do all things, because God knew that he wouldn't abuse the power.

Within, our faith, we have a promise, that the Prophet will never lead us astray. There was a talk given regarding Brigham Young who spoke one thing in the morning, and then at night said something to the affect, "I spoke this morning, now the Lord will speak through me" (This is paraphrased quite a bit).

When it comes to Bishops, Stake Presidents, and even some General Authorities they are men doing their best to follow the Spirit, but are not always successful, and sometimes the wrong men or woman is called, and they say called by the "Holy Spirit."

What you have to recognize is that the presence of corruption, at any level, is not what makes the gospel of Jesus Christ true or not true. It is simply true.

If corruption was the reason why something is true verses not true, then the gospel would have failed at the time of Cain.

These are great questions, however, if you want to know for yourself if the Church of Jesus Christ is the gospel of Jesus Christ restored, then you must: read, ponder, and then pray and ask God, thus learning for yourself. I would also add fasting.

When God confirms the truth, then you can seek for other answers.

Skippy, has provided you with some excellent answers, however, both Skippy and I have a witness, by the Holy Spirit, that this is God's true church.

After this witness comes, then we seek answers for other things. I say this, because it doesn't matter really what answer we provide if the church is false, although it isn't, but you get my point.

If the Church is true, and you gain this testimony for yourself, then as Skippy, myself, and others we exercise faith the promises of the Lord, especially with regard to our Prophet, and how we have a promise from God that he will never allow the Prophet to be corrupt, or God himself in His own way will remove the Prophet from his mantle.

This is evident with the story of Balam and the donkey. Ballam (forgetting if this is the right spelling), who was told to bless Israel, however because he had a lust for power and greed, he was going to follow the King instead, and as he was going to curse Israel the Lord had prepared an Angel to smite him. He then changed his course of action and blessed Israel.

This is also evident with the story of Jonah, who was a prophet, and commanded of God, when he rebelled out of fear, or whatever he was feeling, the Lord used a big fish to humble him enough to do as He commanded Jonah to do.

As a Latter-day Saint, I have no worries regarding the corruption of our prophets and apostles, because I know, as the Lord did with Ballam and Jonah, that He will correct their course, if need be.

Great questions! May the Lord bless you in your search, and I am sorry to hear about your abuse as a child, and may, as Alma once said, your soul be comforted in Christ.

Best Regards,

Andrew

Edited July 10, 2012 by Anddenex

[applepansy]

The title of your opening post is "How do you avoid absolute power?"

The answer is to recognize the hand of God in all things and never take credit for something you can't possibly do without God. Which is just about everything. Its called humility.

[Guest]

Difference between LDS church and a lot of other churches... We don't have paid clergy. To become a prophet (big or small p), you usually have served a long time in lower callings. It's a tough job being, say, bishop of a ward. You don't get paid for it so you still need a job to support your family in addition to 20 or more hours a week of serving the church. It surely isn't something to aspire to if your intent is to be corrupt money wise...

Say you're like the power hungry freak wherein you just like to be the president of something as a pride thing, not a money thing - so you get power over a group of people... Not easy to do in the LDS church as any presidency - bishop or any other presidency is called, not aspired. You don't like, gain points under your belt to get a promotion in the ranks. The person at a higher authority prayerfully choses who to call to fill in lower open positions. So, you can be bishop one day and toilet cleaner tomorrow.

And lastly, every single calling in the church is sustained by unanimous vote by the entire church. If one person raises their hand in opposition to a calling, it gets reviewed and discussed with the opposing vote. So yes, the Prophet of the Church and all the General Authorities have to be sustained by unanimous vote by all the members of the church every year.

[sabastious]

Andrew, thanks for the heartfelt reply. I get what you mean about faith in Christ taking care of things, but I need more than heartfelt testimony. Elijah could part the Jordan so what makes your prophet special? Because if there is one consistency in all of these holy writings it's that God likes certain people, not certain organizations. The ones that are chosen by God hold heavy responsibility and also the highest punishment for acts of disloyalty to Christ. Moses was severely punished merely for taking credit of the works of God. All of Israel paid the price because of David's sin. This is because these men held very special positions handed out by God and are a reflection of the perfect Love of God. To break that love is no small thing.

In this day in age of religions on every street corner, legitimacy becomes a very big deal. Everyone and their uncle seems to have a religion and they declare themselves just as convincingly as any Mormon that they have exclusive rights to the stories of the Bible. When you speak of Jonah and Israel and even Christ you speak as if your LDS prophets and apostles are the direct successors to those stories. This is very hard to believe even though I don't doubt that you are true believers here. Just for me, it's very hard to swallow.

The Jehovah's Witnesses say that Matthew 24:45 is a prophecy for a "class" of people that emerge in the last days. They call themselves the "faithful and discreet slave" class. They teach that they are a line of successors too and millions of people would die for them by refusing a medical procedure that is prohibited by them. Faith in men is scary and so when I see a prophet and 12 apostles ruling any church I want to see them call down fire and consume an offering!

Regards,

-Sabastious

[Traveler]

In 1979 Mormonism changed it's views on the black culture by removing the "accursed" tag. That was only 34 years ago and such an alteration is a monumental change in doctrine. How are you so sure that another monumental change will not be announced at any moment? What if your prophet is seduced by the Serpent? Would that not mean that the entire Mormon church would be under the devils command until the prophet is exposed and removed?

You speak about teaching what men we ought to be, which is very good, but what about doctrine such as the Last Days in Matthew 24? Doctrine is very important, I feel like you are minimizing it's importance. Refining doctrine and simplifying is paramount for the preservation of it for further generations to come. The religion I used to be in is centered around the Last Days and says that they started in 1914. Your doctrine and covenants document interprets Revelation 14's "144,000" as High Priests that "emerge" in the Last Days to help preach the "Everlasting Gospel." Have you identified any of these "High Priests" and why did Smith only mention the title priest and not king when the term king is coupled with priests in said verse? Why would these priests be necessary if not to overcome the folly of organized religion?

Regards,

-Sabastious

I have been in position to know a "few" apostles and prophets that preside over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I can honestly say I do not know a better organization in the world. I believe the organization to be patterned after the "Kingdom" Jesus established 2000 years ago - and is unique even today - I know of nothing like the lds Church organization.

First off all positions in the church are voluntary. We serve without pay. Some receive financial help but that is on a case by case according to individual need - and is in essence extended to all members. No position in the church organization can be applied for. There are individuals hired to perform various functions for the church - such as auditor or lawyer, construction worker for building and such but such positions could be filled in many cases with a person that is not even a member of the LDS faith.

When a person is given a call two things must happen. First the call must come through what is called the "keys" of the priesthood in the same manner that apostles and others were called anciently in the organization Jesus established. This means that there must be 100% agreement with all individuals in that line of authority from which the call is appointed. The second part is that all members that are serviced under a particular have a right to "sustain" those appointed over them. In essence no one serves of their own - even the 19 year old missionaries serve in minimum of pairs.

The presiding authority is called the first presidency and there are three that serve. If something happens to one - they are replace - except for the president. When the president dies then the first presidency is dissolved and a new presidency is called. That calling falls on the senior apostle in the quorum of the 12. The senior apostle is not the oldest but the apostle according to their call as apostles.

this means that no one can ever apply for the position of president. The president then chooses two other apostles to serve with him to form the fist presidency. The first presidency and quorum of the 12 apostles are said to have equal authority but the quorum of the 12 apostles holds their authority in reserve.

When there is a vacancy in the quorum of the 12 apostles then the 12 apostles must choose another to full that vacancy. It is important that this choice must be unamious and not any majority. Any male member may be called an Apostle and like the selections anciently - one may be an engineer by profession, another a sheep herder and another a carpenter and another a justice of a state supreme court. Currently all serving in the first presidency and quorum of 12 apostles made their living and supported their families outside of the church services. Most have accumulated enough savings prior to their call that they receive no pay - with some exceptions for travel and other such expenses.

My post is by no means complete - but a start with some parts and pieces. Hope it helps.

The Traveler

[sabastious]

And lastly, every single calling in the church is sustained by unanimous vote by the entire church. If one person raises their hand in opposition to a calling, it gets reviewed and discussed with the opposing vote. So yes, the Prophet of the Church and all the General Authorities have to be sustained by unanimous vote by all the members of the church every year.

So the prophet and the apostles have to renew their legitimacy each year with the members? That actually is a built in check and balance. Has the membership ever repealed a calling? The Jehovah's Witnesses are completely in the dark as to how and why Governing Body members are put in place. Most of the ones I grew up with were unaware of the defection and subsequent book writing of one of them in the 1980's. They also were not aware of the false prophecy regarding 1975 and look at people who try to expose it as malicious hoaxers. The inner workings of the Watchtower Society is largely unknown to the rank and file members. I gather that's not the case with LDS?

Regards,

-Sabastious

[Guest]

In 1979 Mormonism changed it's views on the black culture by removing the "accursed" tag. That was only 34 years ago and such an alteration is a monumental change in doctrine. How are you so sure that another monumental change will not be announced at any moment? What if your prophet is seduced by the Serpent? Would that not mean that the entire Mormon church would be under the devils command until the prophet is exposed and removed?

You speak about teaching what men we ought to be, which is very good, but what about doctrine such as the Last Days in Matthew 24? Doctrine is very important, I feel like you are minimizing it's importance. Refining doctrine and simplifying is paramount for the preservation of it for further generations to come. The religion I used to be in is centered around the Last Days and says that they started in 1914. Your doctrine and covenants document interprets Revelation 14's "144,000" as High Priests that "emerge" in the Last Days to help preach the "Everlasting Gospel." Have you identified any of these "High Priests" and why did Smith only mention the title priest and not king when the term king is coupled with priests in said verse? Why would these priests be necessary if not to overcome the folly of organized religion?

Regards,

-Sabastious

Doctrine is very important. Unfortunately, I don't think you understand LDS doctrine very well. Your statement about blacks and the priesthood, for example, is in error. This is not the place to discuss it, you can go search all the other threads that talk about it.

One thing you need to know is that the LDS Church holds that:

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

This means that unlike most other Christian churches, we don't have a closed cannon. We believe in modern revelation that is expedient at the time. The laws in Leviticus, for example, is good for their time. The laws in the early history of the church is good for that time. Today, we have the Prophet that guides us for what is good for this time. But, the gospel doesn't change - only our understanding of it or the application of the doctrines change within each timeframe. As more and more gets revealed about the gospel, the more we learn and understand. We don't claim to know everything. But we do claim to have all the truth necessary for our salvation.

[Traveler]

So the prophet and the apostles have to renew their legitimacy each year with the members? That actually is a built in check and balance. Has the membership ever repealed a calling? The Jehovah's Witnesses are completely in the dark as to how and why Governing Body members are put in place. Most of the ones I grew up with were unaware of the defection and subsequent book writing of one of them in the 1980's. They also were not aware of the false prophecy regarding 1975 and look at people who try to expose it as malicious hoaxers. The inner workings of the Watchtower Society is largely unknown to the rank and file members. I gather that's not the case with LDS?

Regards,

-Sabastious

There is an error - a person is not called by unanimous vote - it is by what is called sustaining vote. Even if there is one contrary sustaining vote - it may be heard (as I have seen) and the calling not completed. But as I am sure you are aware - one nut case trying to upset things may be rejected - It is up the the "Presiding authority" to determine if a sustaining is valid. In my experience of over 50 years - I have only seen a sustaining fail once - but it did fail. Interesting - the members were never informed why the call was not completed and there was only one that voted not to sustain. The presiding authority met with the one and determined the call would not go forward.

If I so desired I could vote against sustaining anyone called over me and I would not be forced to give a reason - I could just say I do not feel like it - again it is the presiding authority that must accept or reject my vote and council me in the decision.

But I have also served in a bishopric (the presiding authority in a ward or congregation). I have thus determined that no bishopric can do a poor enough job for me to want to replace them. At least it has not happened so far in my life.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Doctrine is very important. Unfortunately, I don't think you understand LDS doctrine very well. Your statement about blacks and the priesthood, for example, is in error. This is not the place to discuss it, you can go search all the other threads that talk about it.

One thing you need to know is that the LDS Church holds that:

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

This means that unlike most other Christian churches, we don't have a closed cannon. We believe in modern revelation that is expedient at the time. The laws in Leviticus, for example, is good for their time. The laws in the early history of the church is good for that time. Today, we have the Prophet that guides us for what is good for this time. But, the gospel doesn't change - only our understanding of it or the application of the doctrines change within each timeframe. As more and more gets revealed about the gospel, the more we learn and understand. We don't claim to know everything. But we do claim to have all the truth necessary for our salvation.

This comment is very important - in my mind. The Blacks were not given the priesthood because it was a popular notion at the time - we believe that is comes as a direct commandment from G-d. Not an interpretation of scripture. Thus any member that in essence disagrees just because they are prejudice - is not just going against some interpretation of things but the direct command of G-d through his prophets. Very strong doctrine. That revelation - like calling was sustained the first presidency and the entire quorum of the 12 apostles. If someone did not like the prophesy - they could give a sustaining vote against the first presidency at the next ward, stake or general conference they attended and that vote recorded in the records of the church.

The Traveler

[Guest]

So the prophet and the apostles have to renew their legitimacy each year with the members? That actually is a built in check and balance. Has the membership ever repealed a calling? The Jehovah's Witnesses are completely in the dark as to how and why Governing Body members are put in place. Most of the ones I grew up with were unaware of the defection and subsequent book writing of one of them in the 1980's. They also were not aware of the false prophecy regarding 1975 and look at people who try to expose it as malicious hoaxers. The inner workings of the Watchtower Society is largely unknown to the rank and file members. I gather that's not the case with LDS?

Regards,

-Sabastious

No, that's not the case with LDS. The structure of the General Authority is pretty consistent. For example, when President Hinckley died, we all knew President Monson will succeed as Prophet. There's a sense of order to the entire organization. If Pres. Monson dies, Boyd Packer will more likely become the next Prophet. Although some other guy could potentially be called Prophet if God reveals it as such. Hasn't happened yet.

Okay, generally, this is how the Presidency of the Church and the Quorom of the 12 Apostles work:

From LDS.org...

"The highest-ranking governing body in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the First Presidency, consisting of the president and his two counselors, or advisers. This three-man body supervises the work of the entire Church in all matters of policy, organization and administration.

The second-highest presiding body in Church government is the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. They serve under the direction of the First Presidency and have heavy administrative responsibilities to oversee the orderly progress and development of the Church throughout the world. The First Presidency and Twelve Apostles are regarded by Latter-day Saints as prophets who receive divine revelation and inspiration to guide the Church.

The appointment of a new president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints happens in an orderly way that — remarkably in today’s world — avoids any trace of internal lobbying for position or rank. Viewed by members as a divinely revealed process, it is devoid of electioneering whether behind the scenes or in public.

Moreover, it is not only the structure of Church organization that governs this process. There is also a deeply ingrained tradition in the Church that personal aspiration for leadership at any level is inappropriate. Instead, the emphasis is on personal worthiness and a humble willingness to serve when invited.

When the president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints passes away, the following events take place:

1. The First Presidency is automatically dissolved.

2. The two counselors in the First Presidency revert to their places of seniority in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Seniority is determined by the date on which a person was ordained to the Twelve, not by age.

3. The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, now numbering 14 and headed by the senior apostle, assumes Church leadership.

4. The senior apostle presides at a meeting of the Quorum of the Twelve to consider two alternative propositions:

i. Should the First Presidency be reorganized at this time?

ii. Should the Church continue to function with the Quorum of the Twelve presiding?

5. After discussion, a formal motion is made and accepted by the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

6. If a motion to reorganize the First Presidency is passed, the Quorum of the Twelve unanimously selects the new president of the Church. The new president chooses two counselors from among the Quorum of the Twelve and the three of them become the new First Presidency. Throughout the history of the Church, the longest-serving apostle has always become the president of the Church when the First Presidency has been reorganized.

7. Following the reorganization of the First Presidency, the apostle who has served the second longest is sustained as the president of the Quorum of the Twelve. The only exception is when the second-longest-serving apostle has also been called into the First Presidency as a counselor, in which case the third-longest-serving apostle becomes acting president of the Twelve.

8. The president of the Quorum of the Twelve, along with the rest of the apostles, sets apart the new president of the Church through a formal laying on of hands.

I have not heard of anybody who got kicked out of the Presidency or the Quorom of 12. And I have not heard of anybody who did not get unanimously sustained by the entire church every year. I've only been a member 10 years, so maybe some of the older folks can verify.

Edited July 10, 2012 by anatess

[sabastious]

This means that unlike most other Christian churches, we don't have a closed cannon. We believe in modern revelation that is expedient at the time. The laws in Leviticus, for example, is good for their time. The laws in the early history of the church is good for that time. Today, we have the Prophet that guides us for what is good for this time. But, the gospel doesn't change - only our understanding of it or the application of the doctrines change within each timeframe. As more and more gets revealed about the gospel, the more we learn and understand. We don't claim to know everything. But we do claim to have all the truth necessary for our salvation.

Yes, but you claim that salvation comes through an organization headed by a prophet and 12 apostles. They don't just hold information that is helpful to you, they hold the keys to salvation, don't they? As did the Mosaic Priesthood? You had to be an Israelite in order to be under the protection of Israel. Without Moses there is no Mosaic Priesthood and without the LDS prophet there is no LDS organization. Their ultimate legitimacy is derived from the fact that they succeed Joseph Smith is it not? So, when I ask about the legitimacy of the modern day LDS prophet I am actually asking about Joseph Smith? Sorry for all the questions, I am very inquisitive and my mind works very rapidly.

Regards,

-Sabastious

[sabastious]

There is an error - a person is not called by unanimous vote - it is by what is called sustaining vote. Even if there is one contrary sustaining vote - it may be heard (as I have seen) and the calling not completed. But as I am sure you are aware - one nut case trying to upset things may be rejected - It is up the the "Presiding authority" to determine if a sustaining is valid. In my experience of over 50 years - I have only seen a sustaining fail once - but it did fail. Interesting - the members were never informed why the call was not completed and there was only one that voted not to sustain. The presiding authority met with the one and determined the call would not go forward.

So if someone is considered a "nut case" their disapproval of the calling is then ignored? Is it at least noted in writing someplace?

Regards,

-Sabastious

[Guest]

Yes, but you claim that salvation comes through an organization headed by a prophet and 12 apostles. They don't just hold information that is helpful to you, they hold the keys to salvation, don't they? As did the Mosaic Priesthood? You had to be an Israelite in order to be under the protection of Israel. Without Moses there is no Mosaic Priesthood and without the LDS prophet there is no LDS organization. Their ultimate legitimacy is derived from the fact that they succeed Joseph Smith is it not? So, when I ask about the legitimacy of the modern day LDS prophet I am actually asking about Joseph Smith? Sorry for all the questions, I am very inquisitive and my mind works very rapidly.

Regards,

-Sabastious

Let me see if I can parse your question properly...

First, you're asking if the LDS prophets hold the keys to salvation? The simple answer is not really. Jesus Christ's Atonement holds the key to everyone's salvation. The Priesthood Authority holds the keys to the ordinances necessary for salvation... Baptism being an important one. And yes, we believe that Priesthhod Authority was removed from the earth during the period of Apostasy and restored on Joseph Smith Jr.

Now, about legitimacy after Joseph Smith, you probably have heard about the problems the early church went through after Joseph Smith died. There was quite a rift within the church, and even the son of Joseph Smith split from Brigham Young. Who retained the authority? Is Brigham Young the true Prophet? The only way you can answer that question is by asking God if the LDS church is the true church... Or if it is the RLDS church that is the true church. Or of neither of them is the true church. I can't answer that question for you. I can only answer it for myself. Make sense?

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Sabastious,

I really respect where you're coming from. Healthy skepticism and distrust of humans in general, and a clear understanding of our usual ability to mess up just about any organization with our agendas and greed and desires is to be commended.

All that said, let me clarify something. If you find perfect answers to your questions that fully satisfy you, and you decide to join the church, then you are joining for the wrong reasons. Our church leaders don't claim infallibility or perfection. They only claim that God chose them and they're trying their best. If you look, you will find human flaws.

I say this often: The only good reason to be a mormon, is you believe God wants you to be one. Any other reason is setting yourself up for dissapointment or disillusion.

Here's the promise - you can gain a personal miraculous revealatory witness that the BoM is what it claims to be, and our church is what it claims to be, and our prophet and leaders are who they claim to be. If you seek this witness and God gives it to you through the spirit, then you are pretty much on the hook to follow it. Without this witness, you're left with judging our church by your standards. I happen to be in agreement with your standards in general. But can you see how something else is going on here?

[sabastious]

I can't answer that question for you. I can only answer it for myself. Make sense?

Yes, but if I ask the Holy Spirit (however that works) and I am revealed that LDS is not the true church, what then? That's exactly what other Christian denominations say they do. Is the Holy Spirit that, say, a Lutheran experiences impure? How do you identify pure Holy Spirit?

Regards,

-Sabastious

[sabastious]

Here's the promise - you can gain a personal miraculous revealatory witness that the BoM is what it claims to be, and our church is what it claims to be, and our prophet and leaders are who they claim to be. If you seek this witness and God gives it to you through the spirit, then you are pretty much on the hook to follow it. Without this witness, you're left with judging our church by your standards. I happen to be in agreement with your standards in general. But can you see how something else is going on here?

A lot of your members seem to have unique supernatural experiences. However this can be semi-explained with confirmation bias and like you said God works in personal ways so it may be impossible to prove someone else's revelation.

The missionaries that I am having over have told me to have the BoM speak to me, as you seem to be doing as well. The problem is that if benevolent spirit forces exist, than that also means that malevolent forces do too. So then you are to the point where you have to identify the experience as from something that is interested in helping you.

Does the LDS prophet say that being a Lutheran will cost you your salvation?

Regards,

-Sabastious

[Just_A_Guy]

Yes, but you claim that salvation comes through an organization headed by a prophet and 12 apostles. They don't just hold information that is helpful to you, they hold the keys to salvation, don't they? As did the Mosaic Priesthood? You had to be an Israelite in order to be under the protection of Israel. Without Moses there is no Mosaic Priesthood and without the LDS prophet there is no LDS organization. Their ultimate legitimacy is derived from the fact that they succeed Joseph Smith is it not?

Well, wait a minute. Salvation comes in and through Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The prophets and apostles in our day--and the levitical priesthood in the days of Moses--derive their legitimacy from Him and Him alone. Joseph Smith and Moses were merely the tools God used to create those institutions; and the institutions maintain ("maintained", in the latter case) their legitimacy only to the extent that they continue to represent the word and the will of the Lord God.

We have promises that we deem to be divinely inspired, stating essentially that this "dispensation" of gospel truth--this divinely-inspired institution--will not fall away; that this will be the institution that endures until the Savior comes again. But that doesn't mean we blindly follow Church leadership. The principle of individual revelation--the idea that I can go and ask God whether Tom Monson is telling me the truth, and that God will confirm (or deny) the notion to me--is fundamental to the LDS Church.

So, not only are there institutional checks and balances between the leadership groups (e.g. the Twelve are theoretically equal in authority to the First Presidency, and the Seventy collectively are equal in authority to the Twelve, and the stake high councils collectively are equal in authority to the Seventy; and anecdotal evidence suggests that the First Presidency and the Twelve at least move primarily only by consensus); but each individual member of the Church has the prerogative to evaluate the Church leadership's actions according to the gift of the Holy Ghost that resides within each member. See, e.g., here.

That said: once a member has received a "confirmation" of the Church's leadership, circumstances tend to require a lot of faith in that confirmation. The minutes of the meetings for the highest councils of Church leadership are not public. The Church does not release its financials. Some of our worship rituals are intended to be done only in the absence of outsiders--i.e. in specially dedicated "temples"--and we don't discuss those rituals outside of the temples except in very general terms. And frankly, though I think the Church is blessed with top-notch general leadership, occasionally there are some difficult personalities who make it into local congregation leadership (however, the nice thing about a rigidly hierarchal organization like Mormonism is that there's always someone higher up that you can present your issues to).

[Just_A_Guy]

Yes, but if I ask the Holy Spirit (however that works) and I am revealed that LDS is not the true church, what then? That's exactly what other Christian denominations say they do. Is the Holy Spirit that, say, a Lutheran experiences impure? How do you identify pure Holy Spirit?

There's no one smoking gun, but here are some resources:

Galatians 5:22-23

D&C 8:2-3

D&C 9:7-9

And from Joseph Smith:

This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of these things which were given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more.

A lot of your members seem to have unique supernatural experiences. However this can be semi-explained with confirmation bias and like you said God works in personal ways so it may be impossible to prove someone else's revelation.

Touché.

The missionaries that I am having over have told me to have the BoM speak to me, as you seem to be doing as well. The problem is that if benevolent spirit forces exist, than that also means that malevolent forces do too. So then you are to the point where you have to identify the experience as from something that is interested in helping you.

Yep.

Does the LDS prophet say that being a Lutheran will cost you your salvation?

Mormonism looks at heaven as a series of "degrees", and it believes you'll do better in the eternities having accepted Mormonism than you would having rejected it. But being a Lutheran wouldn't "cost you your salvation". I'd venture to suggest that the Mormon view of what happens to non-Mormon Christians in the eternities pretty much squares with what non-Mormon Christians themselves believe happens to them in the eternities.

That said: LDS statements about the creeds and doctrines of orthodox Christianity haven't always been what you'd call "politic".