How important is scripture study?

[Sicily510]

I find it most interesting that Jesus was in direct conflict - not with the scientist of his day but religious intellects that relied on their scripture to difine what they understood of the universe and the principles by which it was governed.

Along this line it appears to me that the ancient scientists of Egypt (from our LDS Book of Abraham) were likely taught the basis of their science and mathematics from a prophet (Abraham) and as such dominated the scientific arena for over 2,000 years.

Einstein believed that G-d is a mathematician. And I would submit that as a language mathematics (in principle) is the closest of any means of human communication to the language of G-d. Did you know that it is impossible to lie mathematically? But Satan (the father of lies) quoted scripture in tempting Christ.

The Traveler

I know that science is a wonderful secular subject that can accompany and unacompany the gospel. As far as Satan tempts he uses analogies of circumstances not the scriptures, why would he want us to use or even read the scriptures? When the scriptures is against him, Satan, Lucifer, the adversary uses circumstances that we encounter in our lives and the scriptures help us to discern these circumstances with allowing the Holy Ghost to dwell with us. For example when one reads the scriptures is the individuals looking glass that they are reading through dark or light? For when one is reading in darkness they will attain darkness and lack the solutions thereof. Whereas, if one is reading in light they are able to attain the personal revelation the conscience (spirit) and act in accordance with the Holy Ghost.

I don't think one has to be a mathematical genius but a person of faith for where is faith if one is dealing with mathematics? How does one mathematically conclude to Faith if mathematics foundation is not on the gospel but the understanding of quantum physic and its perpetual solutions of infinity. That's it!! Mathematics is infinity of the unknowing to the masses, that would drive me crazy to just feel that I'm not able to find a conclusive solution to my circumstantial spiritual hardship. Thankfully, our spirit doesn't have to be that way, we don't have to formulate a mathematical equation to understand and know that Jesus Christ is a true and living God. We can actually feel his love in a phenomenal spiritual way but it requires exercising faith, prayer, and feeding upon the words of God (scriptures). When one does not believe that the Bible or the BofM is a word of God then one has already concluded that they do not believe. Faith is the very essence of belief.

[Traveler]

1 = 2.

You are using mathematical symbols but not actual mathematical principles. In essence you have made you point - my point should have been - you cannot lie without violating mathematical grammar. Thus if you attempt to decieve with a lie - you expose yourself as a liar or someone that does not understand mathematics.

So I stand corrected - It is impossible to lie using proper mathematical grammar.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I know that science is a wonderful secular subject that can accompany and unacompany the gospel. As far as Satan tempts he uses analogies of circumstances not the scriptures, why would he want us to use or even read the scriptures? When the scriptures is against him, Satan, Lucifer, the adversary uses circumstances that we encounter in our lives and the scriptures help us to discern these circumstances with allowing the Holy Ghost to dwell with us. For example when one reads the scriptures is the individuals looking glass that they are reading through dark or light? For when one is reading in darkness they will attain darkness and lack the solutions thereof. Whereas, if one is reading in light they are able to attain the personal revelation the conscience (spirit) and act in accordance with the Holy Ghost.

I don't think one has to be a mathematical genius but a person of faith for where is faith if one is dealing with mathematics? How does one mathematically conclude to Faith if mathematics foundation is not on the gospel but the understanding of quantum physic and its perpetual solutions of infinity. That's it!! Mathematics is infinity of the unknowing to the masses, that would drive me crazy to just feel that I'm not able to find a conclusive solution to my circumstantial spiritual hardship. Thankfully, our spirit doesn't have to be that way, we don't have to formulate a mathematical equation to understand and know that Jesus Christ is a true and living God. We can actually feel his love in a phenomenal spiritual way but it requires exercising faith, prayer, and feeding upon the words of God (scriptures). When one does not believe that the Bible or the BofM is a word of God then one has already concluded that they do not believe. Faith is the very essence of belief.

Please clarify just one thing for me. If one is searching for truth - do you believe that the methods are (and should be) different if one is investigating science or religion? All that I am suggesting is that for those that in deed are seeking truth of science or religion or politics or social morals - if it is the truth we seek - why change the method?

The Traveler

[Dravin]

You are using mathematical symbols but not actual mathematical principles.

Sounds like "Not a true Scotsman" to me. Lying isn't a function of language it's a function of the speaker or communicator.

[Traveler]

Let me answer that question with a question. When the risen Lord appeared to the Nephite nation, what was his first order of business after introductions? Answer: To correct and validate their scripture.

It is a false idea that scriptures are sort of an ersatz form of divine revelation, only for those who can't quite muster the faith to have God appear to them. On the contrary, Joseph Smith, the greatest prophet of the latter days, was an assiduous student of scripture right up until his death. Jesus himself, the Son of God, studied and quoted scripture voluminously. We would do well to follow their examples.

I think you missed the point of scripture. Scripture is not intended to replace direct revelation but to bring us to it. Thus scripture is useful to bring us to Christ and the truth - but if for what-ever reason it does not accomplish that objective - then scripture is not a tool we have used for truth.

Thus my point is that scripture is only a means and not and end - and if the end can be obtained (say by someone that cannot read) some other way then we know that scriptures are not necessary.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

How important is the information we get from scripture? Let me ask this question in another way. How accurate is scripture?

Historically - those that hold to scripture over all others sources of information - have they proven to be at the vanguard of enlightenment, innovation and expansion of human knowledge? Or have they been reluctantly bringing up the rear?

Thoughts? Can you give some specific examples?

The Traveler

Here's what the Apostle Paul said about scriptures:

2 Timothy 3:

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Where learned scripture-experts have failed is in assuming that their traditions and understandings are inspired, and in failing to look to God for discernment.

[Sicily510]

Please clarify just one thing for me. If one is searching for truth - do you believe that the methods are (and should be) different if one is investigating science or religion? All that I am suggesting is that for those that in deed are seeking truth of science or religion or politics or social morals - if it is the truth we seek - why change the method?

The Traveler

This is the thing, to each is own, we all inherit the truth in our own due times individually dependant upon our diligence and faith. My point is that it requireths faith for the the utmost understanding of Jesus Christ and his gospel. To say otherwise that one can utilize science to build a foundation in Jesus Christ is uniquely favorable, however, not sufficient enough. Science has exemplified opening doors for scrutiny as if this church isn't going through enough, already. Faith has been the foundation of this Church in Jesus Christ for all whom are members must believe in Jesus Christ and that the examples which he provided in receiving the Holy Ghost and foreordaining Prophets, Apostles, Priests, Bishops is the key to ordaining Latter-day Saints in doing sacred duties.

All things is and were created by the "Words of God", and that dear Traveler is for the faithful to believe. I only find science to obscure thoughts into madness because it's been the very by product for the carnal humans to wonder in their stumblingblocks of stiffneckedness and pride. Truth is not just knowledge and the title that one has attained as a technical engineer, but the ability to comfort others in need of comfort and walk in the meekness of our Savior Jesus Christ light.

And now, my son, I have told you this that ye may learn wisdom, that ye may learn of me that there is no other way or means whereby man can be saved, only in and through Christ. Behold, he is the life and the light of the world. Behold, he is the word of truth and righteousness.

A litte concept I thought of is:

Truth = Life

Light = Righteousness

Our life's course testifies the truth that we need Jesus Christ in our lives and that through him we may become people of righteouness.

Here is something I thought of and googled up:

The Word of God and Creation

Philo of Alexandria explored the dynamic of creation through the concept of the Logos-tomeus. In his view the word of God accomplishes creation through the continuous differentiation of things "material and immaterial." From the opening verses of Genesis, we witness a similar dynamic: "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light . . . : and God divided the light from the darkness" (Genesis 1:3–4). Whether focusing on the concept of division or not, all scriptural accounts of creation seem to indicate a strong association between the spoken word of God and the creative acts of God.

In the Pearl of Great Price, God instructs Moses about the creation of the world: "And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth" (Moses 1:32). A few verses later, God associates the "uncreation" of worlds with the concept of the word as well: "For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power" (Moses 1:35). Interestingly, in these two scriptures the common ordering of power and word is reversed. The word is presented as an emanation of "power," that is, something that derives and goes forth from it. The only other use of this construction in scripture occurs in Moses 2:5, Joseph Smith's inspired translation of Genesis 1:5: "And I, God, called the light Day; and the darkness, I called Night; and this I did by the word of my power, and it was done as I spake." Significantly, it is God who speaks to Moses, recognizing that Jesus Christ emanates from Him and equating "the word" directly with Jesus Christ, His Only Begotten Son. But God the Father is also acknowledging that the words that Jesus Christ speaks (and thus the creative acts that Jesus Christ accomplishes) originate with Him. He explains to Moses, "My works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease" (Moses 1:4).

This association between the word of God and creation also appears in the Book of Mormon. The first reference occurs in Jacob's speech to the Nephites: "For behold, by the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word" (Jacob 4:9). We notice that in this passage, unlike the passages in the Book of Moses, "power" emanates from "his [God's] word." Moroni presents the same association between word, power, and God's act of creation:

Who shall say that it was not a miracle that by his word the heaven and the earth should be; and by the power of his word man was created of the dust of the earth; and by the power of his word have miracles been wrought? (Mormon 9:17)

The fact that Jacob, who was one of the original colonists, and Moroni, who was the last known survivor of his people, both appeal to this imagery shows its enduring importance for Nephite teachers.

Power and the Word of God

Scripture indicates that the power of the word of God is not limited to the initial acts of creation, but exerts control over the physical world as well. Helaman 12, one of Mormon's admonitory insertions into his history of the Nephites, presents a stirring litany on the power of the word of God over the natural elements. Mormon writes:

O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth. For behold, the dust of the earth moveth hither and thither, to the dividing asunder, at the [spoken] command of our great and everlasting God. (Helaman 12:7–8)

Significantly, the power of the word of God over natural elements can be transferred to individuals, a common theme in scripture. When this happens, the word of God is often characterized as the release of a power not intrinsic to the person speaking. In many of these instances the power of the word of God is tied directly to miracles. Two such instances are recorded about the disciples of Christ who suffered persecutions:

And they were cast down into the earth; but they did smite the earth with the word of God, insomuch that by his power they were delivered out of the depths of the earth; and therefore they could not dig pits sufficient to hold them. (3 Nephi 28:20)

Therefore they did exercise power and authority over the disciples of Jesus who did tarry with them, and they did cast them into prison; but by the power of the word of God, which was in them, the prisons were rent in twain, and they went forth doing mighty miracles among them. (4 Nephi 1:30)

One of the most moving passages in the Book of Mormon appears in Mormon 8:24. Having taken over the sacred records after his father's death, Moroni discusses the valiant who have died and how they will cry from the dust. The following verse summarizes many of the miracles that the people of God were able to bring about by the power of his word:

And he knoweth their prayers, that they were in behalf of their brethren. And he knoweth their faith, for in his name could they remove mountains; and in his name could they cause the earth to shake; and by the power of his word did they cause prisons to tumble to the earth; yea, even the fiery furnace could not harm them, neither wild beasts nor poisonous serpents, because of the power of his word. (Mormon 8:24)

The Book of Mormon also emphasizes that it was the word of God that allowed Old Testament prophets to perform miracles. In rebuking his brothers for criticizing his desire to carry out the Lord's command to build a ship, Nephi points out all that Moses was able to accomplish through the power of the word of God. After citing many examples of Moses' miracles, Nephi concludes:

And it came to pass that according to [God's] word he did destroy them; and according to his word he did lead them; and according to his word he did do all things for them; and there was not any thing done save it were by his word. (1 Nephi 17:31)

The experiences of Lehi and his family in the wilderness are strikingly similar to the experiences of Moses and the Israelites in the desert.9 Both are displaced groups who must hearken to the word of the Lord in order to reach their promised destinations. Nephi's summation of the Israelites' experiences—that "according to [God's] word he did do all things for them; and there was not any thing done save it were by his word"—echoes the experiences of Lehi's group. The emerging Nephite culture continued to value the word of God, a fact mirrored thematically throughout the Book of Mormon. As we will see, the Nephite record depicts the differing roles of the word of God in people's lives.

The Word of God as Comforting

The word of God is often characterized as providing comfort to those who accept it. In an early example, Jacob calls the Nephites together to chasten those in transgression. Before spelling out their iniquities, he says, "And it supposeth me that they [the innocent] have come up hither to hear the pleasing word of God, yea, the word which healeth the wounded soul" (Jacob 2:8).

Later in the record we find a similar characterization of the word of God. Ammon and the other sons of Mosiah have just been reunited after their missions to the Lamanites. Ammon rejoices in the power that the word of God has brought about in the lives of the people whom they have taught:

Behold, how many thousands of our brethren has he loosed from the pains of hell; and they are brought to sing redeeming love, and this because of the power of his word which is in us, therefore have we not great reason to rejoice? (Alma 26:13)

The Word of God as Discomforting

Just as the word of God can be comforting to those who accept it, it can be discomforting—"hard," "sharp," or "strict"—to those who reject it. This dichotomy is a prevalent theme in the Book of Mormon. The prophet Jacob explains it in these terms:

O, my beloved brethren, give ear to my words. Remember the greatness of the Holy One of Israel. Do not say that I have spoken hard things against you; for if ye do, ye will revile against the truth; for I have spoken the words of your Maker. I know that the words of truth are hard against all uncleanness; but the righteous fear them not, for they love the truth and are not shaken. (2 Nephi 9:40)

Nephi expresses a similar sentiment after explaining the vision of the tree of life to his brothers:

And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center. (1 Nephi 16:2)

Nephi's speech contains a reference to the Logos-tomeus metaphor in which the truth of the word of God acts as a "cutter" ("it cutteth them") and causes pain to the guilty. Abinadi expresses the same idea when he challenges King Noah and his wicked priests: "I perceive that it [his message] cuts you to your hearts because I tell you the truth concerning your iniquities" (Mosiah 13:7).

The characterization of the word of God as "sharp" also applies to the dichotomy of how the righteous and the unrighteous receive the word of God. An early example of this is recorded in Lehi's speech to Laman and Lemuel, wherein he rebukes them for their treatment of Nephi:

And ye have murmured because he hath been plain unto you. Ye say that he hath used sharpness; ye say that he hath been angry with you; but behold, his sharpness was the sharpness of the power of the word of God, which was in him; and that which ye call anger was the truth, according to that which is in God, which he could not restrain, manifesting boldly concerning your iniquities. (2 Nephi 1:26)

Mormon discusses in similar terms the preaching of the word at the time of King Benjamin: "And there were many holy men in the land, and they did speak the word of God with power and with authority; and they did use much sharpness because of the stiffneckedness of the people" (Words of Mormon 1:17). In his second epistle to his son Moroni, Mormon notes that he too must use "sharpness" when addressing the people: "Behold, I am laboring with them continually; and when I speak the word of God with sharpness they tremble and anger against me; and when I use no sharpness they harden their hearts against it" (Moroni 9:4).

The word of God also offends the wicked because of its strictness, as seen in Alma's reflections at the end of his mission to the Zoramites:

Now Alma, being grieved for the iniquity of his people, yea for the wars, and the bloodsheds, and the contentions which were among them; and having been to declare the word, or sent to declare the word, among all the people in every city; and seeing that the hearts of the people began to wax hard, and that they began to be offended because of the strictness of the word, his heart was exceedingly sorrowful. (Alma 35:15)

Jacob, when chastising the Nephites for their iniquities, notes the sorrow that the righteous feel when witnessing iniquity: "And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds" (Jacob 2:35).

Toward Fuller Appreciation and Understanding

This study has analyzed the varied and rich ways that the word of God is characterized in the Book of Mormon. We often approach the scriptures on different levels. At times we focus on the narrative stories that edify us and serve as examples in our lives. At other times we focus on the advice of the prophets concerning spiritual and temporal subjects. Searching the subtleties of the language of the Book of Mormon helps us to appreciate the importance of scripture in developing an understanding of our lives and our relationship with our Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Because Jesus Christ speaks to us through scripture, the language of scripture mediates our understanding of who we are and who we strive to be.

As we study the word of God in the Book of Mormon, we recognize important similarities and differences in how this concept is characterized in other scripture. Significantly, however, the fundamental characteristics of the word of God are constant throughout scripture, namely, that the word of God played an essential role in the creation, that it holds a continuing influence over the natural elements, and that it can be transferred to individuals. Certain images associated with the word of God also remain constant throughout scripture, most notably the metaphor of the Logos-tomeus. Some images are unique to the Book of Mormon because they describe a unique circumstance, such as the concept that the Book of Mormon peoples would "cry from the dust." As expected, other images in the Book of Mormon seem to have come directly from the Old World, such as the concept of "tasting" the word or "hissing," and seem to have evolved during the 1,000-year narrative period of the Book of Mormon. All of these images serve to demonstrate the multifaceted and powerful nature of the word of God.

The Word of God - Leslie A. Taylor - Journal of Book of Mormon Studies - Volume 12 - Issue 1

The words of God is the scriptures which teaches our spiritual origin, that's deep.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Sicily510

[Anddenex]

Hmmm - so my question now is - by what means do we come to know the only true G-d and Jesus Christ who was sent? I believe the scriptures are (in mathematical terms) neither necessary nor sufficient. (see Matt 16:17)

I have been thinking, actually quite a bit (no, it doesn't hurt when I think), regarding this thread and some of your answers in other threads.

You mention you believe the scriptures to be neither necessary nor sufficient. I would agree with the sufficient, but not necessarily the "necessary."

Adam lived before there were any scriptures. Seth and Cain, at least according to what we have written in the Bible, didn't live by a book either. However, they did live by the words of their father, and the words which proceed from the mouth of the Lord, personal revelation.

Abraham remembered what was taught, not necessarily what was written. We don't have any record specifying Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob read any scriptures. When Joseph was in Egypt, what scriptures did he base his knowledge from? I would think as a slave, he didn't have any scriptures, but remembered the words of his father, and I would venture to say, personal revelation. It wasn't scriptures which interpreted Pharoah's dream, but the spirit of the Lord which was within Joseph.

Thus, I would agree with the words, that the scriptures are not sufficient. A person can easily look beyond the mark if they wholy focus only on scriptures, as did the pharisees. The pharisees, saducees and scribes were the scripture authorities within their day. Yet, when the God of Israel stood before them, despite their studies they could not recognize their God, their deliverer.

However, I would disagree in the statement that the scriptures are not necessary. Here are my evidences:

1. When Lehi left Jerusalem he was commanded to return and get the scriptures, the works and words of our God. The scriptures clearly state that if they had not obtained the plates, then they would have dwindled in unbelief.

In saying this, my personal thoughts, is that Nephi and Lehi would have been ok without scriptures. However, not all are of the character of: Joseph, Nephi, Lehi, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Thus the scriptures provide weak souls, like myself, a rod to hold onto, untill we reach the more sure word of prophecy, and then the scriptures become a standard, but living by personal revelation becomes a way of life.

2. As already shared, the iron rod is the word of God. Those who let go of the iron rod, or did not hold fast unto it, either went their way feeling toward the great and spacious building, others were drowned. In light of Elder Bednars words, I would say, the scriptures are very necessary to help weak souls like myself, to reach new heights until we obtain ourselves a more sure word of prophecy; we live by every word of God, especially personal revelation.

In light of these two options, I would say the scriptures are not sufficient, but are definitely necessary for the salvation of anyone who is like me. It keeps me grounded, and one day hopefully I will obtain the sure word of prophecy, and thus become one with God. When a person becomes one with God, this may be the only time the scriptures are no longer necessary, but doubtful, at least in my minds eye.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Anddenex

[Traveler]

Thank you all for your input. I need to first admit that I do not have all the answers but I did learn something of great importance in my youth. I have stated this before but I discovered that “smart” people are not really smarter than anyone else – except they have utilized their time in study and preparation. The paradox – however is that the goal is not the study and preparation. What then is the goal?

It is quite interesting that the first 4 principles of the Gospel do not involve scripture nor scripture study – why is that? When we submit ourselves to the covenants of G-d, scripture and scripture study are not specifically required nor included in promises. Why? Scriptures and scripture study are not mentioned anywhere in the 10 commandments. What then is the importance of scripture? When Noah determined to build an ark; it was not because he read of it in scripture. As a matter of fact, when we study the scriptures we discover that only on rare occasion is it from scripture, that those honored in scripture, determined to do important and particular service for G-d and their fellow man because they discovered their call from scripture – rather there was something beyond what they were commanded in scripture.

I find it quite ironic that on occasions of history interpretations of scripture have been the excuse of unjust wars and even genocide of entire societies – some of which were completely benign and non-aggressive. If whoever is reading this post does not understand how this has happened – I can give some very specific examples – some since the restoration has taken place. Over the last 2000 years scriptures have been the primary and sometimes the only excuse to reject important principles of science; principles that have benefited for the good of human society both directly and indirectly.

If one engages in religious conversation – I would submit that whatever your stripe; if you are opposed, that opposition will quote scripture to counter your notions despite whatever scriptures you referenced to support your position. Realizing thins and experiencing this, how can anyone think to justify any doctrine by scriptures alone? Why do we think to resolve any doctrine by scripture? Even in scripture have disputes in doctrine been resolved by scripture reference? How many Jews (Pharisees, Scribes and others) that opposed Jesus but had purported belief in scripture were convinced or moved by scripture offered by Jesus? So we learn that Jesus did not use scripture to convince or establish doctrine – but to establish that those that relied on their understanding of scripture (especially a traditional understanding) to determine if Jesus was the Christ, were, at least in part, in error.

I would submit: that more important than knowing and studying scriptures is to be humble!

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

I would submit: that more important than knowing and studying scriptures is to be humble!

I would definitely agree with this statement, as my previous post made mention, that the pharisees and saducees were the elite of their time in scripture study, yet they are the ones which crucified their God.

This is why I would agree that scriptures are not sufficient, however I wouldn't agree that the scriptures are not necessary.

We wouldn't have the 10 commandments if they weren't written within scripture. The first 4 principles of the gospel, we would not have if they weren't written down and specifically pointed out as cannon.

I would definitely agree with the statement that Noah didn't come by the flood because it was in scripture, it was delivered by personal revelation, which in my minds eye, specifies scriptures are not sufficient but important.

Scriptures, as you are familiar with, are the written words of prophetic teachings, or valuable and important teachings. Noah, wouldn't have known about God without the teachings of Adam, and others. The only difference then and now, is that scripture wasn't written, it was orally passed down from one generation to another. Having written scripture maintains, if the passed down by honest people, the accuracy verses dealing only with oral scripture. We know men, is more likely to add, or forget experiences and spoken words, which are not written down. Scriptures would not be accurately preserved, yet at the same time, if changed, it can create confusion and contention.

I would appreciate your answer to this question, do you think you would have come to the knowledge you have now without scripture, a cannon scripture?

I personally do not think I would, however, if I rely solely on scripture and scripture alone, then I will loose out on personal revelation, which draws a person closer to God. Without personal revelation even the scriptures are just words in a book. I personall feel, without scripture, men are more likely to fall under the message taught in scripture, to be ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth. Scripture cannon, provides a solid foundation by which humankind can build and grow their testimony and knowledge in correct truths. Otherwise, people may continue to preach the "Adam-God Theory" as preached by Brigham Young, or other teachings professed by previous apostles and prophets which were not doctrine as well.

Would you agree that scrptures divide doctrine from personal opinion?

Edited July 25, 2012 by Anddenex

[Dove]

This thread brings to my mind a particular passage of scripture ;

1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had areceived the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the btongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 aAngels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, bfeast upon the cwords of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will dtell you all things what ye should do.

4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye aask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.

5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will ashow unto you all things what ye should do.

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall amanifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the aunbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the bstiffneckedness of men; for they will cnot search dknowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in eplainness, even as plain as word can be.

8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the aSpirit which teacheth a man to bpray, ye would know that ye must cpray; for the devil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must apray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall bpray unto the Father in the cname of Christ, that he will dconsecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the ewelfare of thy soul. (2 Nephi 32)

This chapter says to "feast upon the words of Christ." Yet, it doesn't talk about the scriptures as much as it does the gift of the Holy Ghost. I believe an important distinction to make, especially in context to this thread.

I do have a concern though~ While I appreciate science and would certainly like to study it more, I don't believe we can use scientific "proof" to prove the existence of God or anything Godly or of Him.....This would defeat the whole purpose of having faith. I believe that God intends that we cannot prove who He is, scientifically speaking, so we can develop our faith and learn how to rely on the promptings of the Holy Ghost...

It's a pet peeve of mine when people try to prove the Bible/Book of Mormon through scientific ends. How many times has it been claimed that Noah's ark was found? Or that we have the true death shroud of the Savior, etc., etc.? It gets really annoying after awhile.

Dove

PS Yes, I do believe that humility is soo important in coming to know God and our relationship to Him. Humility is certainly a trait I am striving for. But, I absolutely feel the necessity of daily scripture study for my spiritual health....I can never presume I'm "advanced" enough to be okay without this.

[Traveler]

This thread brings to my mind a particular passage of scripture ;

1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had areceived the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the btongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 aAngels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, bfeast upon the cwords of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will dtell you all things what ye should do.

4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye aask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.

5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will ashow unto you all things what ye should do.

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall amanifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the aunbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the bstiffneckedness of men; for they will cnot search dknowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in eplainness, even as plain as word can be.

8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the aSpirit which teacheth a man to bpray, ye would know that ye must cpray; for the devil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must apray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall bpray unto the Father in the cname of Christ, that he will dconsecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the ewelfare of thy soul. (2 Nephi 32)

This chapter says to "feast upon the words of Christ." Yet, it doesn't talk about the scriptures as much as it does the gift of the Holy Ghost. I believe an important distinction to make, especially in context to this thread.

I do have a concern though~ While I appreciate science and would certainly like to study it more, I don't believe we can use scientific "proof" to prove the existence of God or anything Godly or of Him.....This would defeat the whole purpose of having faith. I believe that God intends that we cannot prove who He is, scientifically speaking, so we can develop our faith and learn how to rely on the promptings of the Holy Ghost...

It's a pet peeve of mine when people try to prove the Bible/Book of Mormon through scientific ends. How many times has it been claimed that Noah's ark was found? Or that we have the true death shroud of the Savior, etc., etc.? It gets really annoying after awhile.

Dove

PS Yes, I do believe that humility is soo important in coming to know God and our relationship to Him. Humility is certainly a trait I am striving for. But, I absolutely feel the necessity of daily scripture study for my spiritual health....I can never presume I'm "advanced" enough to be okay without this.

Thank you Dove. I really like not only your thoughts but the spirit the seems to motivate your thoughts. I would submit that to each is given "different" gifts of the holy spirit. Why cannot the truths of science also be spiritual gifts? It is interesting to me that one of the greatest scientist of our generation purported that his genius was often given to him in the form of visions. When Tesla invented the brush-less eclectic motor he saw it in vision and said that he could almost touch it. As he put to motor together in his vision and started it - there were problems that he was able to correct in his vision and restart the motor in vision.

When he had resolved all the issues from his vision he built the first brush-less motor ever. What is interesting is that in over 100 years no one has ever been able to improve on his initial design in that first motor. Contrast this with one of his scientific competitors, Thomas Edison. Edison had an idea of a light bulb and tried thousands of variations before he finally produced an efficient enough light bulb for normal use. But since that initial working light bulb (also just over 100 years ago) there have been many thousands of improvements.

The assumption that there is a difference in manifestations of the spirit between the truths of science and the truths of religion - I believe is not just an error but a lie given to misdirect man from truths. I see the truths of religion and science to be more similar than different. I believe the Tesla - Edison examples is at the very core of how important revelation is. We may discover truths by trial and error or by revelation - both have their place but revelation is far more efficient.

It it is possible that knowing, understanding or perceiving the truths of science are as much a gift of the spirit as is any other "spiritual" gift of the spirit. I would also submit that it is more likely or at least just as likely that G-d will inspire scientific advancements as he would "religious" advancements to accomplish his purposes. That the restoration brought to man both enlightenment that changed both religious and scientific thought resulting from the traditions of the Dark Ages.

In fact it does appear to be to be even as it were a "sign" that man is indeed connected to a spirit of enlightenment; in being able to transcend not just the popular and traditional religious thoughts of the time but to advance in the sciences as well. -- Did not Nephi tell us that the design of his boat was not at all like the standard designs of the time?

The Traveler

Edited July 29, 2012 by Traveler

[Dove]

Thank you Dove. I really like not only your thoughts but the spirit the seems to motivate your thoughts. I would submit that to each is given "different" gifts of the holy spirit. Why cannot the truths of science also be spiritual gifts? It is interesting to me that one of the greatest scientist of our generation purported that his genius was often given to him in the form of visions. When Tesla invented the brush-less eclectic motor he saw it in vision and said that he could almost touch it. As he put to motor together in his vision and started it - there were problems that he was able to correct in his vision and restart the motor in vision.

When he had resolved all the issues from his vision he built the first brush-less motor ever. What is interesting is that in over 100 years no one has ever been able to improve on his initial design in that first motor. Contrast this with one of his scientific competitors, Thomas Edison. Edison had an idea of a light bulb and tried thousands of variations before he finally produced an efficient enough light bulb for normal use. But since that initial working light bulb (also just over 100 years ago) there have been many thousands of improvements.

The assumption that there is a difference in manifestations of the spirit between the truths of science and the truths of religion - I believe is not just an error but a lie given to misdirect man from truths. I see the truths of religion and science to be more similar than different. I believe the Tesla - Edison examples is at the very core of how important revelation is. We may discover truths by trial and error or by revelation - both have their place but revelation is far more efficient.

It it is possible that knowing, understanding or perceiving the truths of science are as much a gift of the spirit as is any other "spiritual" gift of the spirit. I would also submit that it is more likely or at least just as likely that G-d will inspire scientific advancements as he would "religious" advancements to accomplish his purposes. That the restoration brought to man both enlightenment that changed both religious and scientific thought resulting from the traditions of the Dark Ages.

In fact it does appear to be to be even as it were a "sign" that man is indeed connected to a spirit of enlightenment; in being able to transcend not just the popular and traditional religious thoughts of the time but to advance in the sciences as well. -- Did not Nephi tell us that the design of his boat was not at all like the standard designs of the time?

The Traveler

Hello, Traveler;

Thanks much for the kind response. It gives me an example as to how to be more~

I had no idea that Telsa saw a brush-less electric motor in vision before inventing it. That he would acknowledge that is doubly good.

My response to your reply as a whole is, "Sure, why not?" While I haven't thought of it in this way before, I have often felt/believed that the technology explosion of the last 100-150 years was divinely inspired.

My fear is that it seems that many scientists turn away from a belief in God and go into either an agnostic or atheistic belief system. I have seen the Christian "fish" with feet, representing Darwinism, so many times! Of course I acknowledge the debate between Creationism/Darwinism. I really don't know how the world was created/formed. This doesn't effect my belief in G-d at all. I am very secure in my knowledge/belief that He lives and that their is a spiritual realm/supernatural realm as well as the Holy Ghost speaking to me.

My other fear I pretty much stated in my first response to your thread. That a lot of religions/religious people try to prove the miracles of the Savior and Father in Heaven by physical means, instead of relying on the Holy Ghost for confirmation.

Still, I would like to study science more. I believe this is a worthwhile pursuit.

The best;

Dove

[james12]

C.S. Lewis had some good comments on this subject of science and religion. He contrasts the materialist view with the religious view.

Please do not think that one of these views was held a logn time ago and that the other has gradually taken its place. Wherever there have been thinking men both views turn up. And note this too. You cannot find out which view is the right one by science in the ordinary sense. Science works by experiments. It watches how things behave. ...But why anything comes to be there at all, and whether there is anything behind the things science observes - something of a different kind - this is not a scientific question. If there is "something Behind," then either it will have to remain altogether unknown to men or else make itself known in some different way. (Mere Christianity, p 32)

Science is very useful, it tells us "what" happens and it tells us "how". Indeed there is much to discover and profound truths to reveal. But it will never tell us "why". Back to C.S. Lewis:

Supposing science ever became complete so that it knew every single thing in the whole universe. Is it not plain that the questions, "Why is there a universe?" "Why does it go on as it does?" "Has it any meaning?" would remain just as they were? (ibid, p. 32,33)

If there was a controlling power outside the universe, it could not show itself to us as one of the facts inside the universe - no more than the architect of a house could actually be a wall of a staircase of fireplace in that house. (ibid, p. 33)

Here then to my mind is the limitation of science. Yes, revelation may come in uncovering "how" and uncovering "what". But at the end of the day we do not know "why". For example, "Why" am I here? Science can tell you about evolution and how you got here but it will never tell you why you are here. Science reveals the wonder of God's handiwork. However, studying the details of His handiwork will never reveal His reasons, His motivation and purpose. In short, we will not understand "Him" in any full sense of the word. Just as studying a wall in a building will never reveal the architect. For this reason we must take a different way. As has been commented on, faith, repentance, baptism, and the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost is the path. Until, "he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh."

Thus God's word reveals the truth, but more importantly it reveals His character and his motivation. Back to a scripture alluded to by Traveler, "You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. (John 5:39-40 English Standard Version) Ultimately scriptures lead us to understand not simply truth but Christ the "Man". Even if I uncover all the facts, if I do not search in the right place, I will never find Him and will never truly understand.

Edited July 30, 2012 by james12

[skalenfehl]

Another two cents--

The scriptures are not only a historical account bearing glad tidings, but more importantly they contain a road map (I am the way) for obtaining the fullness of the gospel, even a "heavenly gift," during this life.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift...

Ether 12:8 ...and glorified the name of the Father, and prepared a way that thereby others might be partakers of the heavenly gift, that they might hope for those things which they have not seen.

9 Wherefore, ye may also have hope, and be partakers of the gift, if ye will but have faith.

[Traveler]

I believe that one of the great problems of life is coming to understand the economy of G-d. All too often we try to prioritize and compartmentalize things. This is a method of science as well as religion. We start to think “this” is more important than “that” and then we list things according to their order. The late Steven Covey said that the main thing in life is to keep the main thing the main thing. But with experience in life we come to realize that when we go about draining swamps – it is not unlikely that we will find ourselves surrounded with alligators. Ignoring them because they are not our “first” priority will always result in failure of our objective – what-ever it is.

Ecclesiastes counsels us that there is a time and season for all things. There is even a time to kill and a time to heal. My father once counseled me that as good and important as it is to read the Book of Mormon (and other scripture) there is a time and a place for doing that. If we try to read the “Book of Mormon” while playing 2nd base in a softball game we have failed – both in playing the softball game and in utilizing scripture. Not because reading the Book of Mormon is not a good thing to do but because that is not the time and the place to do it.

The point that I have tried to make is that studying scripture is important but it is not the goal of life. Likewise is learning and studying science. Scientific knowledge is not the goal of life either. I believe balance is fundamental to understanding our purpose. If we think to quote scripture and to ignore opportunity to learn by experience (experimentation) we will fail as surly as we will fail to drain a swamp while ignoring alligators. The goal in life is not to become so “spiritually minded” that we are of no earthly value.

I also find irony in that many think that religious understanding far exceeds the scientific knowledge that has been given to man. Really? For this reason alone I personally have much more respect for scientific thinkers in general – because most scientist realize and have an attitude that their knowledge of things are incomplete – so much so that all man’s knowledge (scientific or otherwise) is hardly a drop in a very large bucket – that there is so much more to learn than what has been learned. But religious thinkers? They act as though the scriptures have it all and that there is no reason to look anywhere else? The attitude that they have all the drops in their bucket and outside of their bucket there is nothing that matters. Thinking they are “saved” from the swamp they ignore the alligators and think by faith alone G-d will drain the swamp for them and that anyone eaten by the alligators were evil and spiritually useless anyway.

It is best to appreciate truth and not to compartmentalize it thinking your quest in truth is mostly complete.

The Traveler

[Dove]

Traveler;

I really like you're clarification. One thing it reminds me of is King Benjamin's talk about how, without God, we are nothing...Meaning, we have nothing to merit of ourselves without the atonement of our Savior. That there is so much to learn that we can never learn it all on our own. It reminds me of a scripture in the New Testament. Something about ever learning yet never coming to a knowledge of the truth.

I'm not sure that I would place scientific study as equal to scripture study. (I'm a musician, not a scientist) Yet, I think your point is valid. That not only is it important to read the scriptures; but, to utilize them in experiencing life. That the only way we will be able to truly understand them is to live and experience them. 2 Nephi 9:28-29 comes to mind;

"O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness and the frailties and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they seit it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God."

I was thinking that if I had to choose between a field of study or scripture study for the rest of my life, I would definitely choose scripture study. But, that would be pretty hard if I didn't know how to read! lol. As you said Traveler, maybe it is a balance between the two.

I think you also bring up an interesting subject of functioning in a physical world vs. the spiritual. You said, "The goal in life is not to become so “spiritually minded” that we are of no earthly value." Of course, my mind immediately goes to the scripture, "Be in the world; but, not of the world." I think this refers to the sin and the corruption of the world rather than it's simple physical state. For the first time I am considering the physical aspects of simply learning about our world, which I find fascinating when I do.

Speaking as one who has struggled with being in this world many a time, you have certainly given me food for thought, Traveler. Thank you.

Dove

[norah63]

When giving my life to Jesus Christ and wanting to go to church and learn about the christian life.

I had what I call a revelation of "read my Word". Well I said, that's what I'm going to church to learn about. Again, "read my Word", When I protested that I would not understand it, then I heard, "pass it before your eyes". That I could do. So just to show that I had no way of teaching my self I did read it. Slowly page by page, took some time, but I sure did, pass it before my eyes.

What a surprise that came with the obedience of doing that. Thirty five and more years later, I have learned that it is not getting into the Word as much as letting the Word get into me.

Rewards are eternal.

[skalenfehl]

We don't necessarily have to compartmentalize. It has been given to us what to seek. This is the entire purpose of the Atonement and our Redemption from the Fall:

Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon:

D&C 76:20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness;

21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.

Moriancumr:

Ether 3:13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

Lehi:

1 Nephi 1:8 And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God.

9 And it came to pass that he saw One descending out of the midst of heaven, and he beheld that his luster was above that of the sun at noon-day.

10 And he also saw twelve others following him, and their brightness did exceed that of the stars in the firmament.

There are many more examples in the Book of Mormon and in the Bible: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Isaiah, Moses, etc. In the New Testeament, a Christian named Stephen who was martyred for testifying:

Acts 7: 54 ¶When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

What could we prioritize?

D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

2 Nephi 32:6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do...

"...And, fellow sojourners upon earth, it is your privilege to purify yourselves and come up to the same glory, and see for yourselves, and know for yourselves. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you."--Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pp. 12-13

---

I testify that this is the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I also find irony in that many think that religious understanding far exceeds the scientific knowledge that has been given to man. Really? For this reason alone I personally have much more respect for scientific thinkers in general – because most scientist realize and have an attitude that their knowledge of things are incomplete – so much so that all man’s knowledge (scientific or otherwise) is hardly a drop in a very large bucket – that there is so much more to learn than what has been learned. But religious thinkers? They act as though the scriptures have it all and that there is no reason to look anywhere else? The attitude that they have all the drops in their bucket and outside of their bucket there is nothing that matters. Thinking they are “saved” from the swamp they ignore the alligators and think by faith alone G-d will drain the swamp for them and that anyone eaten by the alligators were evil and spiritually useless anyway.

It is best to appreciate truth and not to compartmentalize it thinking your quest in truth is mostly complete.

The Traveler

I think your perception of "religious understanding" is wrong, at least it is way different from any religious understanding I know. I don't think that "many" think that "religious understanding far exceeds the scientific knowledge that has been given to man." But, I do think that most religious understanding would agree that God's knowledge far exceeds all scientific understanding. I have never in my life met anyone, at least in my religion, who thinks that the scriptures have it all. I have never even heard of such a thing. I am not sure of which "religious thinkers" you are referring to. I also do not understand any religious concept that is based in being "saved" from the swamp (so to speak) based in how much a person knows. Most "religious thinkers" that I know would say they're "saved" based in what they don't know, based in faith. I think you have it backwards there. Most scientific thinkers are proud of what they know, as if they had discovered it for the first time on their own without any divine assistance. This is the arrogance of Satan, 'give me the glory'. Whereas religious thinkers do not take credit for their knowledge or want to for that matter, they want to give the credit to whom from which it was received, to God. And at the same time realize that they have been given only a small portion but that is all that is needed in this life to face a test of faith.

I tend to agree with what skalnefehl said about having the goal of receiving the "fullness". The religious claim is not to have all while here in our mortal state but to someday, outside the mortal sphere have the fullness in Christ and God. Whereas the scientific claim is to someday have the "fullness" of knowledge on their own without divine help. I think those two pathways have been well discussed in a meeting of the minds called "the war in Heaven". I think we already know which side of the fence we should sit on as far as that goes.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

[Traveler]

I think your perception of "religious understanding" is wrong, at least it is way different from any religious understanding I know. I don't think that "many" think that "religious understanding far exceeds the scientific knowledge that has been given to man." But, I do think that most religious understanding would agree that God's knowledge far exceeds all scientific understanding. I have never in my life met anyone, at least in my religion, who thinks that the scriptures have it all. I have never even heard of such a thing. I am not sure of which "religious thinkers" you are referring to. I also do not understand any religious concept that is based in being "saved" from the swamp (so to speak) based in how much a person knows. Most "religious thinkers" that I know would say they're "saved" based in what they don't know, based in faith. I think you have it backwards there. Most scientific thinkers are proud of what they know, as if they had discovered it for the first time on their own without any divine assistance. This is the arrogance of Satan, 'give me the glory'. Whereas religious thinkers do not take credit for their knowledge or want to for that matter, they want to give the credit to whom from which it was received, to God. And at the same time realize that they have been given only a small portion but that is all that is needed in this life to face a test of faith.

I tend to agree with what skalnefehl said about having the goal of receiving the "fullness". The religious claim is not to have all while here in our mortal state but to someday, outside the mortal sphere have the fullness in Christ and God. Whereas the scientific claim is to someday have the "fullness" of knowledge on their own without divine help. I think those two pathways have been well discussed in a meeting of the minds called "the war in Heaven". I think we already know which side of the fence we should sit on as far as that goes.

Let me ask just one question:

If a truth was to be revealed to man from G-d - a truth that has never been know to any man before or at least lost to an entire generation or era. In general and from a view of history which "kind" of thinker would be most apt to receive, investigate, learn and understand the new truth, try to utilize it and improve mankind with such new revelation - the religious community or the scientific community?

Can you give examples? How about the sun and not the earth as the center of things around us? How about the first time Moses came down from the mountain with a message from G-d?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

When giving my life to Jesus Christ and wanting to go to church and learn about the christian life.

I had what I call a revelation of "read my Word". Well I said, that's what I'm going to church to learn about. Again, "read my Word", When I protested that I would not understand it, then I heard, "pass it before your eyes". That I could do. So just to show that I had no way of teaching my self I did read it. Slowly page by page, took some time, but I sure did, pass it before my eyes.

What a surprise that came with the obedience of doing that. Thirty five and more years later, I have learned that it is not getting into the Word as much as letting the Word get into me.

Rewards are eternal.

I appreciate your response but I am confused and not sure I understand what you are saying; there are "things" (ideas) in your post that confuse me.

1. As I have studied the scriptures I have discovered that we do not have any originals. What we have of the Bible are thousands of versions in ancient script I do not comprehend - and so I must rely on men to translate and interpret for me. Even the most studied experts over thousands of years have been unable to come to a consensus and agree consistently on hardly anything from these ancient texts. In fact as recently as the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls such experts have determined that we have incorrectly evaluated of which of the ancient text is more accurate. - Do you read from the ancient texts versions of scripture or the currently popular modern versions?

2. I find as I explorer our physical universe that I can examine G-d's creations direct from his hands as he created each and every thing – unchanged, un-translated and un-interpreted.

What confuses me is when someone says with their mouth that they believe in G-d but if there is any conflict between what we learn directly from G-d's creation and the translations and interpretations of scriptures kept by man - they believe, without any reservation or any further investigation, the things kept by man and not that which is pure and untouched given to us from G-d? --- Usually without any real understanding or though at all concerning that which is created by G-d???? How can I or why should I or anyone believe such thinking is inspired by G-d?

If man can be inspired with scripture – why is such “inspired” interpretation exclusive (without regard) of that which G-d had created? This is my single greatest concern from those that study scripture without understanding or any effort or desire to understand the “science” concerning not just everything else even the scriptures as well.

The Traveler

[Sicily510]

I appreciate your response but I am confused and not sure I understand what you are saying; there are "things" (ideas) in your post that confuse me.

1. As I have studied the scriptures I have discovered that we do not have any originals. What we have of the Bible are thousands of versions in ancient script I do not comprehend - and so I must rely on men to translate and interpret for me. Even the most studied experts over thousands of years have been unable to come to a consensus and agree consistently on hardly anything from these ancient texts. In fact as recently as the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls such experts have determined that we have incorrectly evaluated of which of the ancient text is more accurate. - Do you read from the ancient texts versions of scripture or the currently popular modern versions?

2. I find as I explorer our physical universe that I can examine G-d's creations direct from his hands as he created each and every thing – unchanged, un-translated and un-interpreted.

What confuses me is when someone says with their mouth that they believe in G-d but if there is any conflict between what we learn directly from G-d's creation and the translations and interpretations of scriptures kept by man - they believe, without any reservation or any further investigation, the things kept by man and not that which is pure and untouched given to us from G-d? --- Usually without any real understanding or though at all concerning that which is created by G-d???? How can I or why should I or anyone believe such thinking is inspired by G-d?

If man can be inspired with scripture – why is such “inspired” interpretation exclusive (without regard) of that which G-d had created? This is my single greatest concern from those that study scripture without understanding or any effort or desire to understand the “science” concerning not just everything else even the scriptures as well.

The Traveler

1. Can you clarify real understanding if their is no originals? Is science accurate or does it study upon the hypothesis method and evaluation and conclusion precepts. As much as one thinks that the LDS church is compartmentalizing one must realize it's essential. For one is the plan of salvation and the other is the logics of reasoning from mankind's own experiments.

2. You find as you explore the universe that you can examine Heavenly Father's creation direct from his hands. Now this to me sounds just like an individual who testifies that this church is true, almost to say insane. Your admitting to your own revelation of how you want to interpret the gospel, but the difference is that that's your own understanding where is the unity in those who understands the LDS gospel. I believe that the bishopric, the visiting teachers, and the Latter-day Saints are individuals who understand that through Jesus Christ will they be able to administer Heavenly Fathers works. What does science offer in the context of Jesus Christ?

3. Yes, the universe is like a great thought , however, in order to accept it we would need to believe and follow in the light of Jesus Christ. Does science support that we should follow Jesus Christ? If so reference it? Science is meant to study in man kinds curiosity hence why it's not complete. The LDS faith is meant to grow from trials and errors and change for righteousness to do good in all things through Jesus Christ. Science is not equivalent to Jesus Christ if that was so then why not put it in our article of faiths? Inspiration is not necessarily from the scriptures but from the soul that desires to serve others in need of comfort and help, this church is for the lowly in heart and poor and humble even the Jews and the Gentiles. Let's not limit it with our own understanding but embrace it with our own testimonies.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Let me ask just one question:

If a truth was to be revealed to man from G-d - a truth that has never been know to any man before or at least lost to an entire generation or era. In general and from a view of history which "kind" of thinker would be most apt to receive, investigate, learn and understand the new truth, try to utilize it and improve mankind with such new revelation - the religious community or the scientific community?

Can you give examples? How about the sun and not the earth as the center of things around us? How about the first time Moses came down from the mountain with a message from G-d?

The Traveler

I honestly don't know the answer to your hypothetical question. Maybe you can give me an example of such an instance where there was a truth revealed to man directly from God that was intended for them to understand and utilize for the exact purpose of improving mankind. I really can't think of any such examples and so can't answer your question. Of course, you are not taking about truths that are revealed to someone divinely inspired and man misinterpreting such information with false teachings. So, I don't know of any such examples.

I can think of, though, several examples of technology and higher learned truths given that runs by faith, given without the intent of having man understand how it works. The Urim and Thummim and the Liahona come to mind. God can give many truths without the intent of having man "receive, investigate, learn and understand..." its significance from a scientific standpoint. The truth about the value of the word of wisdom is another example where people likely did not take it with the intent of "understanding" it from a secular standpoint but learned it still the same and benefited from faithfully following it.

[Traveler]

1. Can you clarify real understanding if their is no originals? Is science accurate or does it study upon the hypothesis method and evaluation and conclusion precepts. As much as one thinks that the LDS church is compartmentalizing one must realize it's essential. For one is the plan of salvation and the other is the logics of reasoning from mankind's own experiments.

2. You find as you explore the universe that you can examine Heavenly Father's creation direct from his hands. Now this to me sounds just like an individual who testifies that this church is true, almost to say insane. Your admitting to your own revelation of how you want to interpret the gospel, but the difference is that that's your own understanding where is the unity in those who understands the LDS gospel. I believe that the bishopric, the visiting teachers, and the Latter-day Saints are individuals who understand that through Jesus Christ will they be able to administer Heavenly Fathers works. What does science offer in the context of Jesus Christ?

3. Yes, the universe is like a great thought , however, in order to accept it we would need to believe and follow in the light of Jesus Christ. Does science support that we should follow Jesus Christ? If so reference it? Science is meant to study in man kinds curiosity hence why it's not complete. The LDS faith is meant to grow from trials and errors and change for righteousness to do good in all things through Jesus Christ. Science is not equivalent to Jesus Christ if that was so then why not put it in our article of faiths? Inspiration is not necessarily from the scriptures but from the soul that desires to serve others in need of comfort and help, this church is for the lowly in heart and poor and humble even the Jews and the Gentiles. Let's not limit it with our own understanding but embrace it with our own testimonies.

Articles of Faith? "If there is anything virtuous, lovey, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

Leaving science to those that are expert in the study of science is worse than leaving scripture to those studied ancient cultures and language?

Why do we accept experts in scriptures and discount those expert in science? Should LDS not study science.

The Traveler