Quick question

[Bini]

How do you travel with children (carseat age) when vacationing? We are headed to Hong Kong and Beijing China for two weeks come March. On the flight, she will have a cot but then I started thinking about when we land, and are in and out of taxis and other forms of public transportation. We won't be able to lug around a carseat, obviously, so I'm wondering what's the safest way of doing road trips? Do I just hold her on my lap and tightly in my arms?

[Guest]

How do you travel with children (carseat age) when vacationing? We are headed to Hong Kong and Beijing China for two weeks come March. On the flight, she will have a cot but then I started thinking about when we land, and are in and out of taxis and other forms of public transportation. We won't be able to lug around a carseat, obviously, so I'm wondering what's the safest way of doing road trips? Do I just hold her on my lap and tightly in my arms?

I have a stroller that becomes a carseat (also FAA approved for airline). I used it to travel in the early days of my child. Quick google showed me this: http://www.amazon.com/Lilly-Gold-Stroll-Stroller-Combination/dp/B004EBUP1A But that's not the brand I used. I can't remember what that brand was. It's pretty cool. You have to buy a more expensive ticket on the airline though if you want to get your kid her own airline chair instead of just using the cot.

But, when I went to the Philippines, I didn't use that. My kid was 7-months old at the time. There's no law in Hongkong/Philippines that babies need to be in carseats, nor is there a law for seatbelts. So, public transportation as well as a lot of private cars in the Philippines don't come with seatbelts which renders carseats useless.

So, what I did was just carry the baby in this backpack carrier everywhere I went - because in the Philippines, you're not guaranteed a ramp or space wide enough for strollers to go through either. When it's time to ride the car, I fold the backpack and put the baby in my lap.

It was super convenient for me. Of course, my family all fought over who gets to carry the baby, so I didn't have to worry about it much.

[Bini]

There's no law in Hongkong/Philippines that babies need to be in carseats, nor is there a law for seatbelts. So, public transportation as well as a lot of private cars in the Philippines don't come with seatbelts which renders carseats useless.

Yup - and that!

I just know how the traffic and driving is over there.. Not ideal for unbuckled kiddies.

[kapikui]

You know. The carseat is a relatively recent invention. While it might help in an accident, in truth they most likely only help a little bit. Laws mandating use are more about making people FEEL better about it, not really about actually helping. Anyone over 35 right now most likely didn't grow up using a car seat, and many didn't grow up with using seatbelts either. We all made it out alive. Your kids most likely will survive a few weeks of vacationing. I can't speak for how things are in Bejing, but in a lot of places I'd be more worried about the food and the water than I would be about the car seats.

[Guest]

Yup - and that!

I just know how the traffic and driving is over there.. Not ideal for unbuckled kiddies.

Actually, it's safer for kiddies over there, buckled or unbuckled, because they don't fly down the roads at 70mph.

[Guest]

You know. The carseat is a relatively recent invention. While it might help in an accident, in truth they most likely only help a little bit. Laws mandating use are more about making people FEEL better about it, not really about actually helping. Anyone over 35 right now most likely didn't grow up using a car seat, and many didn't grow up with using seatbelts either. We all made it out alive. Your kids most likely will survive a few weeks of vacationing. I can't speak for how things are in Bejing, but in a lot of places I'd be more worried about the food and the water than I would be about the car seats.

Yep - if you want hard statistics - here's the average as of 2006 in the Philippines:

Total Number of Traffic Accidents in the entire country - 15,065 accidents for that one year. Or an average of 41 accidents per day.

Let's compare that to the state of Florida for that same year - 256,200 accidents in the entire state. Or an average of 702 crashes per day.

Now, how many crashes had injuries - Philippines in 2006 - a total of 3,767 out of the 15,065... or 25%.

In Florida = 137,282... or 54%.

Remember, seatbelts, carseats, and airbags are not common in the Philippines. We just don't drive that fast that it would cause a high injury rate in comparison to the seatbelted US. Most accidents in the Philippines are fender benders.

Hapikui is right about one thing - food and water is more of a concern. I grew up in the Philippines - I was in the Philippines for more years than I was abroad - and when I visited there, I got sick my first 3 days. When I visited with my baby, I was nursing. I only drank bottled water and we were both fine. Another problem is the mosquitos. I used Skintastic lotion on my baby for that. Another problem is the heat. My baby was just not acclimated to it - no air-conditioner anywhere except for the mall and one room in my dad's house. I had to get the baby to sleep in the air-conditioned room just so he can sleep without fussing. But after a few days, my baby got used to it.

Edited July 24, 2012 by anatess

[pam]

Yet this thread had nothing to do with the Philippines.

[annewandering]

You know. The carseat is a relatively recent invention. While it might help in an accident, in truth they most likely only help a little bit. Laws mandating use are more about making people FEEL better about it, not really about actually helping. Anyone over 35 right now most likely didn't grow up using a car seat, and many didn't grow up with using seatbelts either. We all made it out alive. Your kids most likely will survive a few weeks of vacationing. I can't speak for how things are in Bejing, but in a lot of places I'd be more worried about the food and the water than I would be about the car seats.

I do get your point but sadly you do know, dont you, that the ones over 35 that are here are the ones who didnt die from no seatbelts? The ones who did die are not here . And there were way too many of them.

As far as travel goes I would depend on backpacking them when ever possible. Cant use them on a plane, I assume, but everywhere else you can. When you are in a car or bus just remove the backpack with the child still in it and use it for an impromptu car seat. It would probably provide some protection if there were an accident.

Have fun over there. Sounds like you are going to have a great trip. :)

[Guest]

Yet this thread had nothing to do with the Philippines.

Yes it does. It has something to do with Travel to Asia. There is more in common between the Philippines and Beijing than there is USA and Beijing. For example - both Philippines and Beijing don't have carseat laws. Also, both Philippines and Beijing have similar traffic conditions. And since my travel experience revolves around going through HongKong to the Philippines, I presented my experience with the Philippines. When I finally get to spend time in Beijing, I'll answer using that experience.

Of course, I can always just keep silent while YOU provide the advice.

Edited July 24, 2012 by anatess

[Guest]

I do get your point but sadly you do know, dont you, that the ones over 35 that are here are the ones who didnt die from no seatbelts? The ones who did die are not here . And there were way too many of them.

As far as travel goes I would depend on backpacking them when ever possible. Cant use them on a plane, I assume, but everywhere else you can. When you are in a car or bus just remove the backpack with the child still in it and use it for an impromptu car seat. It would probably provide some protection if there were an accident.

Have fun over there. Sounds like you are going to have a great trip. :)

From experience - keeping the child in the backpack while in the vehicle is more dangerous because it is harder to hold the baby infront of you. But if you're talking about the Baby Bjorn front-pack, then yes, that is safer to wear the baby infront of you while in a vehicle. My baby was 7 months old (he was born at 9 lbs 4 ounces, so you can see how he's a big kid) and outgrew the Baby Bjorn so that wasn't an option for me.

[pam]

Yes it does. It has something to do with Travel to Asia. There is more in common between the Philippines and Beijing than there is USA and Beijing. For example - both Philippines and Beijing don't have carseat laws. Also, both Philippines and Beijing have similar traffic conditions. And since my travel experience revolves around going through HongKong to the Philippines, I presented my experience with the Philippines. When I finally get to spend time in Beijing, I'll answer using that experience.

Of course, I can always just keep silent while YOU provide the advice.

No you go right ahead. I just wasn't sure why we needed all the stats about the Philippines when the OP asked about Hong Kong and Bejing. Just sayin'......

[Guest]

No you go right ahead. I just wasn't sure why we needed all the stats about the Philippines when the OP asked about Hong Kong and Bejing. Just sayin'......

Simple enough. In both China and the Philippines, the incidences of fatalities in car crashes is not significant enough to get lawmakers to add the cost of seatbelts in motor vehicles. The Statistics is given to make Americans see the difference using Florida versus Philippines - 2 places that I have a bit of expertise on - 2 different environments - one with roads wide enough and well-enough maintained to allow cars to fly at 70mph, one with smaller roads and "crazy drivers" driving at an average of 50kph (yes, that's kilometers). You hold a baby in your arms in Florida freeways, you're asking for trouble. Holding a baby in your arms driving at 50kph is not as bad.

And all this supports my earlier statement:

Actually, it's safer for kiddies over there, buckled or unbuckled, because they don't fly down the roads at 70mph.

Edited July 24, 2012 by anatess

[pam]

Okay you win. Here's your internet prize.

[Guest]

Yeay! I finally won one!

Okay, let me find something I can disagree with Vort on... I'm empowered to go head-to-head with him now complete with my medal.

[Vort]

Yeay! I finally won one!

Okay, let me find something I can disagree with Vort on... I'm empowered to go head-to-head with him now complete with my medal.

Why is it that whenever someone is told, "You are better than someone else!" , they immediately think of me?

Well, hey, glad I can be of assistance somehow.

[MarginOfError]

Yep - if you want hard statistics - here's the average as of 2006 in the Philippines:

Total Number of Traffic Accidents in the entire country - 15,065 accidents for that one year. Or an average of 41 accidents per day.

Let's compare that to the state of Florida for that same year - 256,200 accidents in the entire state. Or an average of 702 crashes per day.

Now, how many crashes had injuries - Philippines in 2006 - a total of 3,767 out of the 15,065... or 25%.

In Florida = 137,282... or 54%.

Remember, seatbelts, carseats, and airbags are not common in the Philippines. We just don't drive that fast that it would cause a high injury rate in comparison to the seatbelted US. Most accidents in the Philippines are fender benders.

Hapikui is right about one thing - food and water is more of a concern. I grew up in the Philippines - I was in the Philippines for more years than I was abroad - and when I visited there, I got sick my first 3 days. When I visited with my baby, I was nursing. I only drank bottled water and we were both fine. Another problem is the mosquitos. I used Skintastic lotion on my baby for that. Another problem is the heat. My baby was just not acclimated to it - no air-conditioner anywhere except for the mall and one room in my dad's house. I had to get the baby to sleep in the air-conditioned room just so he can sleep without fussing. But after a few days, my baby got used to it.

This seems like an uneven comparison:

Population in the Phillipines: 94,852,030

Infant Mortality

Philipiines: 26.48 per 1,000 live births

United States: 6.81 per 1,000 live births

Median Income:

Philippines: 206,000 pesos ~ $4,900.22

Florida: $47,661

Poverty Rate:

Phlippines: 26.5

Florida: 13.8

Vehicles per Capita

Philippines: 33 per 1,000 (total vehicles ~ 3,130,117)

United States: 808 per 1,000 (total vehicles ~ 15,398,494)

Accidents per day (from anatess)

Philippines: 41

Florida: 702

Accidents per day per vehicle

Philippines: 41 / 3,130,117 ~ 0.0000131

Florida: 702 / 15,398,494 ~ 0.0000456

Accidents with injuries per day per vehicle

Philippines: 15,065 / 365 / 3,130,117 ~ 0.00001319

Florida: 137,282 / 365 / 15,398,494 ~ 0.00002443

Automobile Fatalities per 1,000 inhabitants per year

Philippines: 20.0

United States: 12.3

Automobile Fatalities per 1,000 vehicles per year

Philipines: 606.1

United States: 15

So it's true, there are more accidents in Florida than in the Philippines, and there are about twice as many automobile accidents with injuries in Florida than in the Philippines (after adjusting for automobile use). However, the rate of automobile death per inhabitant is nearly 50% higher in the Philippines, and the rate of automobile death per vehicle is 40 times higher in the Philippines than in Florida.

Conclusion: if involved in an automobile accident in the Philippines, you are 40 times more likely to die than if you are involved in an automobile accident in Florida. I'm not sure that qualifies the Philippines as being a "safer" place to drive.

Edited July 25, 2012 by MarginOfError

[Wingnut]

We all made it out alive.

Except for those who didn't.

[MarginOfError]

You know. The carseat is a relatively recent invention. While it might help in an accident, in truth they most likely only help a little bit. Laws mandating use are more about making people FEEL better about it, not really about actually helping. Anyone over 35 right now most likely didn't grow up using a car seat, and many didn't grow up with using seatbelts either. We all made it out alive. Your kids most likely will survive a few weeks of vacationing. I can't speak for how things are in Bejing, but in a lot of places I'd be more worried about the food and the water than I would be about the car seats.

I don't think your statement will hold up to much scrutiny. As an example:

Young children are required to use child safety seats, and the age threshold at which

children can legally graduate to seat belts has steadily increased. This paper tests the

relative effectiveness of child safety seats, lap-and-shoulder seat belts, and lap belts in

preventing injuries among motor vehicle passengers aged 2-6. We analyze three large,

representative samples of crashes reported to police, as well as linked hospital data. We

find no apparent difference in the two most serious injury categories for children in child

safety seats versus lap-and-shoulder belts. Child safety seats provide a statistically

significant 25% reduction in the least serious injury category. Lap belts are somewhat

less effective than the two other types of restraints, but far superior to riding unrestrained.

[Bini]

Side question.

Anyone use these umbrella strollers? They're just cheap ones but more importantly, they are a basic and light weight stroller, which may work great for running through the airport and in and out of public transport. Do they fold up easily? Or are the metal frames rigid and difficult to snap open and close? I probably won't even buy a new one, I've seen some online for half the price and in seemingly like-new condition.

[Wingnut]

Side question.

Anyone use these umbrella strollers? They're just cheap ones but more importantly, they are a basic and light weight stroller, which may work great for running through the airport and in and out of public transport. Do they fold up easily? Or are the metal frames rigid and difficult to snap open and close? I probably won't even buy a new one, I've seen some online for half the price and in seemingly like-new condition.

I have one that I bought exclusively for travel use. I use a "normal" stroller for everyday use, but when I drive to my parents' or in-laws' houses, or on the rare occasions that I have to fly out west, I have an umbrella stroller because it is much smaller (for fitting in the trunk with all the other crap that goes on a road trip), lightweight (great for airports and rental cars), and I don't care if it gets lost or ruined because it cost me a whopping $20 new.

[Bini]

I have one that I bought exclusively for travel use. I use a "normal" stroller for everyday use, but when I drive to my parents' or in-laws' houses, or on the rare occasions that I have to fly out west, I have an umbrella stroller because it is much smaller (for fitting in the trunk with all the other crap that goes on a road trip), lightweight (great for airports and rental cars), and I don't care if it gets lost or ruined because it cost me a whopping $20 new.

Yeh, we're almost certain that this stroller will not be coming back home with us after we get our use out of it. So it will need to be around that $20 price range, as it will be left behind. I hope that an umbrella stroller will hold up to all the trekking we'll be doing. It'll be getting bashed around quite a bit too, I'm sure.