ABS Gay Ban

[Bini]

Please do not discuss any politicians. That aside, what's all this commotion about American Boy Scouts banning homosexual BOY scouts? I understand that this ban also includes scout leaders but banning young boys based on their sexual orientation? I just saw this on the news. What are your thoughts?

[annewandering]

I hope they are mistaken. A lot of the reports tend to be very skewed and just plain wrong.

[Soulsearcher]

Not mistaken from what I've been reading. Any and all that do not live the expected life style no matter what age are turned away, including gay young men and atheist young men, but only if they are honest. If they lie they are fully accepted.

[annewandering]

I am not sure its being dishonest if they just keep their sex lives to themselves, unless asked, of course, but that is pretty personal. If I were a scout I just would not answer such a snoopy question.

From what I am reading it is accurate and disturbing. Why has sex been brought into the boy scouts? I just dont understand the relevance unless their sex style is pedophilia. Pedophila is hardly restricted to gay people.

Edited August 9, 2012 by annewandering

[NeuroTypical]

Does anyone have a link?

[annewandering]

Despite protests, Boy Scouts reaffirm ban on gays | The Salinas Californian | thecalifornian.com

It is truly difficult to find an actual statement instead of just opinions.

[Soulsearcher]

I am not sure its being dishonest if they just keep their sex lives to themselves, unless asked, of course, but that is pretty personal. If I were a scout I just would not answer such a snoopy question.

From what I am reading it is accurate and disturbing. Why has sex been brought into the boy scouts? I just dont understand the relevance unless their sex style is pedophilia. Pedophila is hardly restricted to gay people.

The thing that you point out here is where people kinda get it wrong. Boys of a certain age will talk about things. The people they like and if they are dating ect ect. It's not just sex that makes someone gay, it's the whole relationship and attraction thing. So if all the boys are talking the gay one either shuts up or can get tossed out.

[bytor2112]

I am not sure its being dishonest if they just keep their sex lives to themselves,

Boy Scouts should not have a "sex" life...they are to keep themselves morally straight.

[Soulsearcher]

Boy Scouts should not have a "sex" life...they are to keep themselves morally straight.

It amazes me the number of people who never had grade school or jr high crushes and never talked about the opposite sex at all with their friends. It's a completely new world for me. Growing up everyone had crushes and thoughts on the opposite (or same) sex and usually it was discussed with in their own gender due to being shy and a bit scared.

[annewandering]

It amazes me the number of people who never had grade school or jr high crushes and never talked about the opposite sex at all with their friends. It's a completely new world for me. Growing up everyone had crushes and thoughts on the opposite (or same) sex and usually it was discussed with in their own gender due to being shy and a bit scared.

I know I was not a popular kid but no I never did. My friends and I talked school, basketball games, Our plans when we got out of school etc. Never sex and never crushes etc. I guess we were abnormal.

[bytor2112]

It amazes me the number of people who never had grade school or jr high crushes and never talked about the opposite sex at all with their friends. It's a completely new world for me. Growing up everyone had crushes and thoughts on the opposite (or same) sex and usually it was discussed with in their own gender due to being shy and a bit scared.

As a father of an Eagle Scout and as a former Scout Master, I have to say, I don't know any scouters that would oust a kid if they thought he might be gay. Frankly, they might be more inclined to work with the young man to make sure he felt part of the troop and was benefiting from the scout experience.

[Soulsearcher]

I know I was not a popular kid but no I never did. My friends and I talked school, basketball games, Our plans when we got out of school etc. Never sex and never crushes etc. I guess we were abnormal.

Who knows, maybe it's just my lil corner of the world, but i had friends chasing girls around the play ground when they were six and sending love notes all the time. Even the LDS kids i helped raise were always talking about this boy or girl they liked and their siblings would tease them to no end. Heck my parents teased me all the time when they thought i liked someone, they just usually have the very wrong idea of who i liked. Sex talking didn't come til end of grade 6 or into high school really and most of that was fantasy, what it would be like or which hot star the guys were dreaming about.

[Soulsearcher]

As a father of an Eagle Scout and as a former Scout Master, I have to say, I don't know any scouters that would oust a kid if they thought he might be gay. Frankly, they might be more inclined to work with the young man to make sure he felt part of the troop and was benefiting from the scout experience.

And this is what i would hope would happen as well, it just seems to make sense to me.

[Echo2002]

Boys at that age may not have sex lives, but they do think about it and talk about it. It's a private organization, so I think they can do what they want.

[Echo2002]

Who knows, maybe it's just my lil corner of the world, but i had friends chasing girls around the play ground when they were six and sending love notes all the time. Even the LDS kids i helped raise were always talking about this boy or girl they liked and their siblings would tease them to no end. Heck my parents teased me all the time when they thought i liked someone, they just usually have the very wrong idea of who i liked. Sex talking didn't come til end of grade 6 or into high school really and most of that was fantasy, what it would be like or which hot star the guys were dreaming about.

I has crushes on boys starting in Kindergarten. The sex talk didn't start until 5th grade.

[NeuroTypical]

Despite protests, Boy Scouts reaffirm ban on gays | The Salinas Californian | thecalifornian.com

It is truly difficult to find an actual statement instead of just opinions.

Agreed. I do not see anywhere where the BSOA excludes young scouts who may self-identify as homosexual. The last I heard, BSOA will not allow a self-proclaimed GLBT person to serve in a leadership position, but that was the extent of it. I also hear a bunch of goofy hating nonsense from blathering agenda-pushing partisans about "hating gays" and "not allowing gays" and whatnot, and until I get a better source on this, I'll assume AP writer David Crary just ignorantly fell for it, or is intentionally pushing it himself.

[Just_A_Guy]

I have no idea what the BSA's actual position is; but I can visualize a justifiable ban on gay scouts (at least, at overnight activities) on the same grounds as a ban on boys and girls attending the same campouts at the same time.

[Wingnut]

As a father of an Eagle Scout and as a former Scout Master, I have to say, I don't know any scouters that would oust a kid if they thought he might be gay. Frankly, they might be more inclined to work with the young man to make sure he felt part of the troop and was benefiting from the scout experience.

I'm glad to hear this. I wish I could thank it twice.

[Guest]

I have no idea what the BSA's actual position is; but I can visualize a justifiable ban on gay scouts (at least, at overnight activities) on the same grounds as a ban on boys and girls attending the same campouts at the same time.

The BSA continues to hold that:

"Homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the requirement in the Scout Oath that a Scout be morally straight and in the Scout Law that a Scout be clean in word and deed, and that homosexuals do not provide a desirable role model for Scouts.”

The text on the books on how this standard is communicated keeps on changing.

Here is what they released last April:

The BSA policy is: “While the BSA does not proactively inquire about the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA.”

Scouting believes same-sex attraction should be introduced and discussed outside of its program with parents, caregivers, or spiritual advisers, at the appropriate time and in the right setting. The vast majority of parents we serve value this right and do not sign their children up for Scouting for it to introduce or discuss, in any way, these topics.

The BSA is a voluntary, private organization that sets policies that are best for the organization. The BSA welcomes all who share its beliefs but does not criticize or condemn those who wish to follow a different path.

Does that help?

I believe the BSA values are consistent with the values of the LDS Church and if we want to continue to have BSA and our Faith In God or Priesthood Program remain tied together, then we need to support this latest incarnation of the BSA policy.

Edited August 9, 2012 by anatess

[Backroads]

Any and all that do not live the expected life style no matter what age are turned away, including gay young men and atheist young men, but only if they are honest. If they lie they are fully accepted.

Hey, it's not like anyone has a right to be in an organization.

And it is all about Honor Code. Doesn't make lying right, but it sounds like you're saying they are being punished for being honest. Maybe they are, in a sense, but it's because they don't make the qualifications.

[Traveler]

First off I will admit prejudice. As a boy of 12 in the boy scouts I was first introduced to the world of gays. This was by an individual posing as a scout leader. I will not go into all the details but I know from my personal experience that gays do recruit boys and I am more than suspicious of legal efforts of various masquerades revolving around “rights” of gays demanding access to very venerable boys at a most critical point in their lives. With that said let us continue this discussion.

As a former scout master and 12 year old myself, I am convinced that 12 year olds are not equipped emotionally or mentally (which in a way includes physically - because the reality of sexuality integrates physical and mental processes) for sexual encounters. I also understand that various sexual addictions - including pornography is initiated during this very venerable age in boys or even before. Realistically, (I believe) unless a child has been exposed to some level of sexual abuse they will not have developed sexual tendencies of any kind and will be repulsed by circumstance involving sexual activity - including explicit detailed discussions. Please understand and note that unwarranted discussions with sexual overtones are a form of sexual harassment and abuse even for adults in the work place - regardless of sexual orientation. Forcing children into this arena is sexually abusive - especially if the child is unprepared for the experiment and is, without reasonable question, harmful to children - and this includes a child that may just be conscious by curiosity.

I applaud the Boy Scouts for taking a realistic and moral stand to protect the innocence of children that are unprepared to protect themselves from the predators that are bent on forcing sexually explicit decisions before their time. Shame on any defending those desiring that children be placed into abusive circumstance by force of law and using children as pones to further a sexual agenda.

The Traveler

[Wingnut]

I will not go into all the details but I know from my personal experience that some gays do recruit boys...

Fixed.

[Bini]

No one here wishes or has implied that children should be placed in abusive situations. I know, Traveler, was not addressing anyone in this thread but just wanted to vocalise that.

Anyway, I remember talking about boys in 2nd and 3rd grade. It wasn't done in a sexual manner. It was done along the lines of Oooo he likes you! context. It's not unfathomable to me that kids that age might express same sex attraction, and in the same mannerism as I did, and not from sexual experience standpoint. I also wanted to voice that being homosexual (adult or child) does not make you more prone to predator tendencies or to committing such heinous actions. Believe it or not, heterosexuals are just as likely to be sexual predators. Really.

[Guest]

Hey, it's not like anyone has a right to be in an organization.

And it is all about Honor Code. Doesn't make lying right, but it sounds like you're saying they are being punished for being honest. Maybe they are, in a sense, but it's because they don't make the qualifications.

This not really the case though.

There is nothing in the BSA policy that rejects membership for an "attraction". Acting on that attraction is what can get you kicked out. If you want to talk about your SSA, go talk about it outside of the BSA, or it can get you kicked out if it starts to distract from the BSA mission.

This is the same thing as how the LDS Church treats its gay members, except that you are encouraged to talk about your SSA with your Church leadership.

So, if you want to act on your SSA, you can't remain a member of the LDS Church in good standing and you can't serve or be a member of the BSA.

Now, if you are actively living the gay lifestyle then it really doesn't make sense that you would want to join an organization or a church who upholds a Law/Rule that says those are not allowed.

I guess it's like somebody who sneaks his way in to the Golf Club when the membership rules specifically state that only people that live in the subdivision and their guests are allowed in the club... because, say, they can't find the same quality of grass somewhere else. And then they get frustrated because they really want to join the club, so they try to change the Club Rules.

So, if you're okay with being dishonest, go sneak your way into the Golf Club. If you don't want to be dishonest, work on getting the Club Rules changed. Or, play golf somewhere else.

Edited August 9, 2012 by anatess

[Bini]

Now, if you are actively living the gay lifestyle then it really doesn't make sense that you would want to join an organization or a church who upholds a Law/Rule that says those are not allowed.

Even homosexuals (living a gay lifestyle OR identifying themselves as having SSA) want to be apart of their community, and its organisations. I may need clarification on this but I believe that the LDS church welcomes ALL - heterosexual and homosexual. Being gay or lesbian won't allow you to be baptised or hold a calling but from my understanding, they are very much welcomed to church, perhaps even encouraged to attend. It makes sense that homosexuals want to feel the Spirit of the Lord too, even if they are sinning differently than ourselves.

Sorry to venture off. The comment got me thinking is all.