Two questions i dont know if there are available answers for... deep deep doctrine

[Eleven]

These questions drive me insane because i dont believe mankind will have the answer for them until everything is all said and done.

what Im asking is:

God is the author of Good. God could not, and would not create evil. (am i right? lol)

God created Lucifer, Son of the Morning, Someone all of us looked up to.

Lucifer made his own conscious decision to walk away and try and make his own way.

Evil was created by Lucifer, The father of lies.

What my question is, is God said evil is necessary for the plan, yet couldnt create evil? So was He taking a gamble that someone would step up to plate to be evil? (speaking VERY casually) What if Satan chose to accept Christ? Where would evil come from then?

One of my friends gave me the best response but i want more lol. He said 2/3 also fell. THATS ALOTA PEOPLE. SOMEONE out of those billions of billions of souls would have stood up if he didnt.

--------------------------

Next Queston:

Adam and Eve.

Why did God command them not to partake of the fruit if it was necessary for the plan to continue? Did he "sin" for the good of mankind? is it possible to Sin for the good of anything? Or did he "transgress" and somehow thats different than sinning? I mean be blatantly disobeyed God..

On the flip side, Did God know they would fall? If he did, did He basically set them up for failure by creating a law he didnt want them to follow? Can God do that lol? probably not but im just asking conclusive questions that may lead to nothing.

From what i may or may not understand, Having a savior was plan B? What hope was there for Plan A of us somehow not needing a savior?

My mission President ( the one I agreed with in case anyone follows my threads) said once that back up plans are just as important, the Atonement was a back up plan. Is this correct?

thanks

I need opinions please.. these questions kill me lol.

thanks

[Guest]

1/3 fell. Not 2/3.

[C_T_R]

God did not create the evil in Lucifer. I love that his name means son of the morning. I think they loved him dearly. The deeper question is how could Satan know God the Father, and of His goodness, and rebel against them because he couldn't be the Savior? 8-o ! How is that possible?? What were we before we were spirits? Intelligences.. and what are those? Is there spiritual DNA?! All I can say is that we definitely had individualism in the premortal life. We were never cookie cutter children of our spiritually begotten parents. How it all works won't be answered here.

How did God know that Lucifer would do it? My theory is that time doesn't exist to God.. that He knows things from beginning to end and how it'll all play out. That isn't him messing with people's free agency whatsoever. He just lives in a dimension where it's all happened already.. aah! My brain is going to explode! We're mortal and our brains can't take it in.

The life before this was similar to the life we have now. People follow "leaders" because of their charisma and their promises (that don't add up) and their eloquence. They don't even go further than that! Sheep mentality.. it's like people are just asleep! And if they had the desire to find out what really works, what the plan really entails, what's really going down, I think a lot of them would have made a different choice. The scriptures say some people choose to remain *willfully ignorant.* !!! So it was, so it is here, and will ever be and it SHOCKS me. Also, people like Lucifer, who want power and prestige and not seeing anything beyond their own noses existed there, exist here, and will exist in the hereafter. Lucifer is so dumb too! He does all this stuff to people (I'm putting this extremely lightly) and to what end? He's only making himself MORE miserable!! :-o

*sigh* It'll all be answered in due time. But no, God did not create the evil that Lucifer chose to embrace and give place in his heart for.

[pam]

1/3 fell. Not 2/3.

Slight correction. 1/3 part.

[C_T_R]

"As man now is, God once was; as God is now man may be.” (The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, ed. Clyde J. Williams [1984], 1.)

I believe this is a truth spoken by one of the prophets. So if you accept that as truth, if God was once just like us, He has a Heavenly Father, and there was a "Lucifer" (probably different name) involved with that whole thing. So if there's no beginning to Gods and goodness, there's no beginning to evil. And we all know how cunning the adversary can be. I can imagine Lucifer was ensnared the same way he tries with us by the "dark side." He was puffed up and narcissistic and reacted extraordinarily childish when the Father chose Jesus. As if it was a personal rejection. As if the billions and billions of people who'd be saved by the only means necessary didn't matter. It was all about him, and if they didn't see it that way then.. I mean perhaps you've read about narcissistic injury? He chose to take it completely personally when it was ANYTHING but.. and did he want to hear the truth of the matter? NO! HE was rejected (in his mind), and now has a vendetta against goodness, truth, and freedom in the EXTREME. Like whoa dude. No, God didn't create it, but the free agency was there. And opposition was there. There must needs be an opposition in all things. And men are free to choose.. even if they are deceived in what they think they're choosing.

And now my brain is going to explode. Good night. :)

[slowey]

God knew that Lucifer would choose to disobey and become Satan, so there was no gamble. Opposition is necessary in order for agency to exist so because God is omniscient there was no plan B, only plan A. It's not that someone else would have "stepped up", Lucifer was always going to do it. He COULD have made a different choice, but God knew that he wouldn't.

To answer your second question: The way I understand it, God commanded Adam and Eve not to partake of the fruit so that there was a choice, but they needed to partake of it so that we could all come to Earth. Because they disobeyed a commandment, they transgressed, but because they didn't understand the commandment it wasn't a sin. If you read the Institute manuals, there's a lot of information about these sorts of questions. :)

[skalenfehl]

"...The course of the Lord is one eternal round..."

"...I am doing that which has been done in other worlds..."

[Dravin]

These questions drive me insane because i dont believe mankind will have the answer for them until everything is all said and done.

what Im asking is:

God is the author of Good. God could not, and would not create evil. (am i right? lol)

Define create evil? Is God the creator of man? Was Hitler evil? Is Stalin not God's creation? Lucifer just like any of us is not God's ex nihilo creation.

Evil was created by Lucifer, The father of lies.

I disagree with this, it creates a catch-22. If evil was created by Lucifer wherefore did Lucifer choose evil in the first place to create it? Evil must have existed before Lucifer for him to choose that path.

What my question is, is God said evil is necessary for the plan, yet couldnt create evil?

Opposition was required but God didn't need to create evil, it already existed. As long as there is agency, as long as beings can choose to follow or not follow God then evil exists, or at least it's potential.

So was He taking a gamble that someone would step up to plate to be evil? (speaking VERY casually) What if Satan chose to accept Christ? Where would evil come from then?

How is it any more of a gamble than Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Lehi, Alma, Mary, Joseph or Joseph Smith? Evil is, evil is opposition to God's will, evil is the darkness where light is not. This concept of created evil that must flow from some grand tempter leading the charge is flawed in my opinion. Do we have such a tempter? I do believe so, but I don't believe that the existence of evil is contingent on him.

From what i may or may not understand, Having a savior was plan B? What hope was there for Plan A of us somehow not needing a savior?

From:

24 And there stood aone among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and bwe will make an earth whereon these may cdwell;

25 And we will aprove them herewith, to see if they will bdo all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have dglory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I bsend? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the asecond was angry, and kept not his first bestate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

Note that this isn't a debate about who to send in Adam's place. This is a recounting of the 'debate/discussion' of whom to send as Savior.

We also have:

1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore fgive me thine honor.

2 But, behold, my Beloved aSon, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the eglory be thine forever.

Once again, the debate is over whom to send as Savior. Christ was chosen from the beginning to be Savior. So since the beginning a Savior was planned for, that doesn't sound like a plan B to me. Do you have some scripture that points out what the original plan was that lacked the need for a savior or even just that at some point there was a plan (of God's) where a savior wasn't considered necessary?

Why did God command them not to partake of the fruit if it was necessary for the plan to continue? Did he "sin" for the good of mankind? is it possible to Sin for the good of anything? Or did he "transgress" and somehow thats different than sinning? I mean be blatantly disobeyed God..

A previous thread covering the subject that might be a good source of food for thought: http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/23464-eating-forbidden-fruit.html

Edited August 15, 2012 by Dravin

[rameumptom]

We are created from the matter that has existed co-eternally with God. He formed our spirits from intelligent matter - matter that had been infused with order, or the light of Christ. Instead of a myriad of particles bouncing around, God organized them into atoms, molecules, elements, compounds. Each grouping became a higher level of intelligence, with more qualities and characteristics than the intelligences it was created from.

Eventually, God created spirits. I believe that spirits are intelligences with individuality and the ability to think for themselves. In Abraham 3, we find God surrounded by the intelligences that were organized. We find that God cannot create intelligence, but the inference is that he can mold intelligence into something new, like spirits.

Being that we are made somewhat independent of God, means that God did not have to create evil. Evil is just the natural force that tries to destroy order and return everything to chaos. This is Satan's understanding of "free".

That a 1/3 part of heaven chose to follow Satan suggests that his plan was tempting. There would be no difficult test. There would be no need for any trials. Anyone could do what they want with the secure knowledge that they were "saved" as Satan's definition of saved would mean. Since God is a God of order, he would have to be replaced, and so Satan also insisted in having the glory.

How did God know Lucifer would do it? How do parents know their kids are going to choose mischief or good or evil? Once you've known a child for a long time, you can see their behavior and determine a lot about them. Lucifer had grown powerful and proud. He was probably questioning God and Christ on many parts of the plan. The pattern was there. All God needed to do was give Lucifer enough rope to hang himself.

As for Adam and Eve, they were brought into the Garden in an innocent state. They did not know good from evil. They had to be given some rules, whereby they would be forced to choose. The rule to multiply and replenish the earth was not possible while they remained innocent in the garden. The rule to not partake of the fruit of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil, prevented them from leaving their innocent state and be able to procreate. It was a Catch 22 that God allowed them to work out.

God knew they would eventually have to eat of the fruit, so that their eyes would be open. In doing so, they would be able to multiply and replenish the earth. Allowing Satan to tempt them in the Garden was part of the plan. They would transgress the law, falling from innocence into a telestial state. The plan for a Savior was always Plan A, and there never was a plan B.

God planned for them to fall. It is part of the process necessary to obtain exaltation. One is born in innocence, loses her innocence as she gains knowledge in the world. Eventually she seeks out the Lord and his atonement, which lifts her up to a terrestrial state, where she can speak with angels, feel the Holy Ghost as a constant companion, and choose good. In this higher state, she is now ready to partake of the Tree of Life - the fulness of Christ's atonement. The process finally brings her into the presence of the Lord again in the celestial realm.

Each of us must follow the path of Adam and Eve in our own lives. We are born innocent. The day arrives when Satan is allowed to tempt and try us, and we invariably fall into sin. We then must seek out the Lord through faith and repentance, which allows the atonement to cleanse us and make us guiltless/sinless. From there, we begin to receive ordinances and covenants that lift us to higher levels of holiness. Eventually, through partaking of the Tree of Life, Christ's grace, we are then ready to return home to the God who created us.

[skippy740]

I like the perspective that this video gives (may not be historically factual, but I still like the lesson):

[Vort]

So-called "deep" doctrine is deep only for those who don't understand it. I think most doctrinal things are clear, concise, and obvious, when properly understood.

These questions drive me insane because i dont believe mankind will have the answer for them until everything is all said and done.

what Im asking is:

God is the author of Good. God could not, and would not create evil. (am i right? lol)

This is a personification of Evil, Evil as a living being. Better to think of Evil as spiritual chaos and Good as spiritual order. Then realize that physical thermodynamics also applies to this spiritual system: There is such a thing as "spiritual entropy", toward which things tend. That is evil. It is the "natural man". It is the natural order of things.

God created Lucifer, Son of the Morning, Someone all of us looked up to.

What is a "son of the morning"? How great did one have to be to qualify? Were you a son of the morning? Was I? Was it a matter of birth order -- those born (created) early were called "sons of the morning" and those born later "sons of the afternoon", etc.?

We don't know. Much has been inferred based on this title, but in fact we have no idea what it means. Assigning meaning to it is based purely on unfounded speculation.

Lucifer made his own conscious decision to walk away and try and make his own way.

Evil was created by Lucifer, The father of lies.

Evil was "created" by the default conditions of reality. Perhaps Satan "created" evil in the sense that my babies "created" chaos in my house. He may have created evil locally, but the idea of evil predates Satan's efforts.

What my question is, is God said evil is necessary for the plan, yet couldnt create evil? So was He taking a gamble that someone would step up to plate to be evil? (speaking VERY casually)

In my mind, that's like asking: What if friction vanished? What if you stumbled across a perpetual motion machine?

What if Satan chose to accept Christ? Where would evil come from then?

It would come from the conditions in which we find ourselves.

Why did God command them not to partake of the fruit if it was necessary for the plan to continue?

Adam and Eve were real, actual, flesh-and-blood people, but the story of Eden is highly figurative -- "a children's fable", I believe Brigham Young called it. I think that we simply do not have a clear account of exactly what went on and what was being accomplished. This may be because we have no reference frame to understand what "really" happened, so it would not have any meaning to us. The more figurative accounts we are given better tell us the important elements that occurred.

On the flip side, Did God know they would fall? If he did, did He basically set them up for failure by creating a law he didnt want them to follow? Can God do that lol? probably not but im just asking conclusive questions that may lead to nothing.

From what i may or may not understand, Having a savior was plan B? What hope was there for Plan A of us somehow not needing a savior?

My mission President ( the one I agreed with in case anyone follows my threads) said once that back up plans are just as important, the Atonement was a back up plan. Is this correct?

Have you been to the temple recently? Many of these questions are directly addressed therein. In my estimation, your best answers will come from revelation based largely on that source, and not from random internet people.

[skalenfehl]

What is a "son of the morning"? ...Was it a matter of birth order -- those born (created) early were called "sons of the morning" and those born later "sons of the afternoon", etc.?

Basically, yes. Another reference to morning and afternoon is the first resurrection. All who inherit the celestial kingdom will come forth in the morning of the first resurrection (Christ's first fruits). All who inherit the terrestrial kingdom will come forth in the afternoon of the first resurrection.

[Dravin]

Basically, yes.

Source? Keep in mind if it's just your logic, as sound as it may be, it's still as Vort characterizes it, speculation.

[skalenfehl]

Source? Keep in mind if it's just your logic, as sound as it may be, it's still as Vort characterizes it, speculation.

Then it very well may be speculation from another's point of view. From my studies of the Old Testament and D&C, I infer the morning to be prior the creation of the earth; the foundation of the world or the "dawn of creation."

When God converses with Job, He asks him where he was during the foundation of the world:

1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Isaiah writes about Satan, a star in heaven who sought to exalt himself:

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

The Hebrew usage is something like helel, ben sahar. There are variations of the spelling. I don't know if Isaiah actually uses the name Lucifer, but I tend to believe it was a pronoun added in later in the King James Bible, which references the planet Venus. In any case, the Hebrew term means shining one, son of the morning/dawn.

One of the most fascinating and doctrinal revelations in the D&C give us a glimpse of a heavenly scene again during the foundation of the world:

24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

We were all there in the grand council, all the least of God's children and all the great and noble ones. We were all morning stars.

Edited August 14, 2012 by skalenfehl

[livy111us]

--------------------------

Next Queston:

Adam and Eve.

Why did God command them not to partake of the fruit if it was necessary for the plan to continue? Did he "sin" for the good of mankind? is it possible to Sin for the good of anything? Or did he "transgress" and somehow thats different than sinning? I mean be blatantly disobeyed God..

On the flip side, Did God know they would fall? If he did, did He basically set them up for failure by creating a law he didnt want them to follow? Can God do that lol? probably not but im just asking conclusive questions that may lead to nothing.

This is the best explanation I've found in my studies.

Why didn’t God cause the Fall to occur, or simply create a fallen world to begin with? “It is contrary to the nature of God to create anything imperfect or unholy. It is contrary to the nature of God to entice men to violate law or to do evil. If God had created a world in which there was opposition, sin, and evil then we could hold Him responsible for such conditions-The Book of Mormon: Second Nephi, The Doctrinal Structure, pg 102

“Why didn’t the Lord simply create man mortal in the first place and avoid all the trauma and experience of a Fall brought to pass through transgression and seemingly conflicting commands? There are in the scriptures no one-sentence answers to this question, but we have been given enough knowledge concerning Gods plan to think through a possible response. In the plan of salvation God does for mankind what they cannot do for themselves. Man must do all he can for himself...Since the Fall was a necessary part of the plan of salvation, and since man was capable of bringing about the fallen condition himself, he was required–or rather it was his privilege–to take the necessary steps.

If God had created man mortal, then death, sin, and all the circumstances of mortality would be God’s doing and would be eternal and permanent in their nature; whereas if man brings the Fall upon himself, he is the responsible moral agent and God is able to rescue and redeem him from his fallen state.”–Selected Writings of Robert J. Matthews pg 479-480

To summarize, God is perfect and only creates perfect things. The fall was just as important in the plan of salvation as anything else, and *had* to happen. Since God wasn't going to create an imperfect being, it had to be set up where man chose to fall from his perfect state, to an imperfect state.

[livy111us]

In regards to satans authority in the pre-mortal life, here are some quotes about him that may help.

Lucifer, being the next heir [to Jesus Christ]...had alloted to him great power and authority, even [as the] prince of [the power of] the air-Eph 2:2- Joseph Smith [Three Degrees of Glory: Joseph Smith’s Insights on the Kingdom of Heaven, pg 41]

Before his rebellion, Lucifer was an “angel of light” who had such “great” authority that he was in a “godified state”-Joseph Smith BYU Studies, vol. 18, no. 2, Winter 1978, 172

Jesus was the first-born or begotten of the Father...[and] the devil...[was] third in power, prince of the air- [brigham Young ibid., 178]

Lucifer, son of the morning, the next heir to Jesus Christ...lost the glory, the honor, power, and dominion of a God and the knowledge, spirit, authority and keys of the Priesthood of the Son of God!-WW Phelps, Times and Seasons, vol 5, no. 24, 1 Jan 1845, 758)

If this is true, then is it no wonder he was able to lead so many away?

[skalenfehl]

Great quotes, livy. You said it better than I did.

[Guest]

Slight correction. 1/3 part.

In 3o-something years of church instruction, I've never heard this distinction, and my tired brain isn't understanding it this morning. Can you please clarify?

[Vort]

In 3o-something years of church instruction, I've never heard this distinction, and my tired brain isn't understanding it this morning. Can you please clarify?

I think what Pam is suggesting is that the scriptures speak not of "one third" but of "a third part" or "the third part", which may mean fractionally 1/3, or may instead suggest a division into three (perhaps unequally sized) groups, one of which rebelled and was cast out.

[estradling75]

In 3o-something years of church instruction, I've never heard this distinction, and my tired brain isn't understanding it this morning. Can you please clarify?

We commonly say 1/3 of the hosts of Heaven as if you counted them all up 1/3 by numbers were who followed Satan. (This is how I understood it for a long time) While that could be true the scriptures we have on that aren't that detailed. It also works if the hosts of Heaven divided unto 3 groups (of potentially different sizes numerically) and one of those groups were lost.

Thus instead of just saying 1/3 (with its implied numerical relationship) its more accurate to our understanding to say the 3rd part.

[skalenfehl]

Our only clue, so far than I have found is here:

D&C 29: 36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

I don't see it as a third of a part of the hosts of heaven, but a third part, meaning the part of heaven comprising 1/3 of the hosts. Just my two cents anyway.

[Wingnut]

I haven't read any responses, so forgive me if there's repetition.

God created Lucifer, Son of the Morning, Someone all of us looked up to.

We looked up to Lucifer? Please justify this statement.

What my question is, is God said evil is necessary for the plan, yet couldnt create evil? So was He taking a gamble that someone would step up to plate to be evil? (speaking VERY casually) What if Satan chose to accept Christ? Where would evil come from then?

God never said that evil was necessary for the plan. 2 Nephi teaches that opposition is necessary. (This, by the way, answers your Adam/Eve question, too.)

One of my friends gave me the best response but i want more lol. He said 2/3 also fell. THATS ALOTA PEOPLE. SOMEONE out of those billions of billions of souls would have stood up if he didnt.

Wrong. A "third part" fell away. It's unclear whether that's an even one-third, or how exactly it's measured out. It's still a lot of spirits, though.

Next Queston:

Adam and Eve.

Why did God command them not to partake of the fruit if it was necessary for the plan to continue? Did he "sin" for the good of mankind? is it possible to Sin for the good of anything? Or did he "transgress" and somehow thats different than sinning? I mean be blatantly disobeyed God..

Again, opposition is necessary in all things. A key component of Heavenly Father's plan is agency. As such, He wouldn't just place Adam and Eve here and have already made choices for them. They needed to have the opportunity to make their own choices. Transgression is different than sinning. Adam and Eve were given two commandments in conflict with each other (multiply and replenish; and don't eat the fruit), but neither was evil. This talk includes a discussion of the differences between transgressions and sins.

On the flip side, Did God know they would fall?

God knows everything -- He did know.

If he did, did He basically set them up for failure by creating a law he didnt want them to follow? Can God do that lol?

Yes, and yes, if you choose to look at it as failure. They ate the fruit, breaking one commandment, but it allowed them to multiply and replenish the earth, which was another commandment they were given -- so they succeeded there.

From what i may or may not understand, Having a savior was plan B? What hope was there for Plan A of us somehow not needing a savior?

If Adam and Eve hadn't partaken of the fruit, we'd all be stuck in the pre-mortal existence waiting on them still. There would be no Savior because He'd never have been born, but living in an innocent state still, they'd have no need for redemption.

Most of this is actually not all that "deep" of doctrine -- at its core, it's about agency, which is one of the most basic of all Gospel principles.

[Dravin]

Most of this is actually not all that "deep" of doctrine -- at its core, it's about agency, which is one of the most basic of all Gospel principles.

To be fair it seems to trip up a lot of people (in one form or another). I wonder if calling it a core rather than basic principle may be more appropriate (of course that may be the sense you meant basic in).

[Wingnut]

To be fair it seems to trip up a lot of people (in one form or another). I wonder if calling it a core rather than basic principle may be more appropriate (of course that may be the sense you meant basic in).

Fair enough. I was thinking "basic" as in, "base" -- fundamental, organic, foundational, etc. I see your point, though.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Wingnut

[Eleven]

Thanks for the correction on 2/3 vs 1/3, i was typing fast. Either way, still lots of souls.

Btw, yes Vort Ive been to the temple recently you goof. lol. Most cases I havent thought of these questions while being there, mostly Im there finding peace from grief happening outside the temple, so my thoughts are elsewhere. I need to make a trip specifically meant for education.

Forgive my repetition, but its how i learn lol. So if im getting this straight:

God did not create our souls, he organized them. (i knew this already, just didnt make the connection). Us being intelligences, we even had agency then. So there was such thing as evil and righteous intelligences, and God organized them no matter if they were good or bad? is that correct?

SO BECAUSE GOD ORGANIZED some good and some bad, One of those bad intelligences was Lucifer, who had a huge issue with pride and immaturity. When he offered his plan and was rejected, he was bitter, and the only way to get back was to swear against God, in which he was banished.

Also I wanted to make another connection. Alma 42. Where it basically says That if God chooses to not be good, "God would cease to be God". Is this suggesting there is a higher power to cast him out IF he should ever go bad? WHICH HE WOULD NEVER DO, but is this what thats suggesting?

What Im getting at by bringing this up is that Good and Righteousness existed before God.

If so, Like Vort said, In Vorts life, kids were the author of chaos in his house locally but that doesnt mean chaos existed elsewhere previously. So calling Satan the "creator of evil" should really be called "the usher of evil" or the one who introduced it to this (our) eternity... hopefully thats coming out right.

What Im getting at by bringing this up again is that Evil and unrighteousness existed before Satan.

So far so good?

Edited August 14, 2012 by Eleven