Adultery preferable to pornography?

[annewandering]

Girls just want to have fun? LDS girls tend to want to have an eternal family. Sexual sins pull away from that goal.

[unworthyservant]

Fair enough ladies. Yes, definitely bitter with a tinge of hope still left.

For a more articulate exposition than I could ever pen, I'd direct you to this recent Aug 6th article by a female LDS therapist (with it's 204 comments)

My Official Stance on Masturbation

[Guest]

I scanned it and I have one question for you: Under what authority can she re-write and re-define the Church's stance and make it okay?

Cool that you can find someone to justify things with smart sounding words, though.

[Leah]

Fair enough ladies. Yes, definitely bitter with a tinge of hope still left.

For a more articulate exposition than I could ever pen, I'd direct you to this recent Aug 6th article by a female LDS therapist (with it's 204 comments)

My Official Stance on Masturbation

Do you have a point other than to run around the internet looking for justification for your personal wants?

If you want to masturbate and look at porn....why not just be honest and go for it? Why look to others to justify what you want to do? You can find justification for anything if you look for it.

Why not just be honest, do what you think is "right", and accept whatever consequences may come. Why look for justification and why try to convince others that you are "right"?

[Vort]

Bottom line: Adultery evil >>>>>>> pornography evil

Not to justify porn at all. It is a disease, a plague, as President Hinckley called it. It destroys individuals, marriages, and families.

But flesh-to-flesh adultery is far worse. Period.

If you think that looking at pictures of nekkid women might warp a man's mind, what about HAVING SEX WITH THEM?!

I mean, seriously, come on. As Jesus said about lusting, pornography viewing is committing adultery with the woman in your heart. Which is awful. But not as bad as committing adultery with her IN YOUR BED.

I am simply amazed, even appalled, that any LDS woman would think pornography viewing somehow worse than actual physical adultery.

(Btw, this post has nothing to do with unworthyservant's response or the thread branch that has developed off of it.)

[unworthyservant]

Clearly, Natasha has no authority to re-write/re-define anything on behalf of the church.

Natasha is simply just another human being who listens to emotionally damaged mormons all day professionally.

Consider this though... that most ideas in the church bubble up from the bottom.

I think you will like this 70 min video from Clayton Christensen (Harvard Professor) talking about how innovation has happened over the past 100 yrs in the LDS church. My favorite is how the primary got started!

Clayton Christensen 2009 LDS Education Conference on Vimeo

[Guest]

Someone in Gospel Doctrine this last Sunday made a very good comment that apostacy usually begins with criticism of church leaders.

[MorningStar]

For me it depends. Is the man on the prowl to commit adultery or does he find himself in a situation where he develops feelings for a woman?

The thought of my husband looking at countless disgusting videos and images, seeking out younger and younger women who are "barely legal" and material that is increasingly graphic is more horrifying to me than the thought of him having sex with a normal woman.

Of course, I would prefer neither. But what are the chances he would eventually become careless and expose our kids to it - caused nasty pop-ups, stored magazines in a place he thought no one would look, left it in his vehicle, etc.? How much would his addiction eventually escalate?

My friend's husband's addiction got so bad, he was asking her for things that were painful and told her she was just "doing it wrong", he surfed porn in front of their small children while she was gone at Relief Society (she came home early and caught him), and he maxed out their credit card at a strip club. It started with an uncle who sexually abused him, using porn to lure him in. When his wife was pregnant and didn't feel up to having sex for two days, he was hostile towards her even though she felt sick. It was like he didn't see she had feelings anymore. Porn portrays women as ready, willing, and able at all times. They don't say no, not even to violence.

Would I rather my husband have an office "romance" or hide out somewhere watching a video of a woman who acts like being gang raped is just great? I would find the first much less mentally deranged. If he felt tempted to look at a picture of a naked woman, that would be different, but it would still hurt me.

There are many degrees of pornography.

[unworthyservant]

I like you Eowyn ... because you know exactly what you believe and you stand up for it.

[Leah]

Bottom line: Adultery evil >>>>>>> pornography evil

Not to justify porn at all. It is a disease, a plague, as President Hinckley called it. It destroys individuals, marriages, and families.

But flesh-to-flesh adultery is far worse. Period.

If you think that looking at pictures of nekkid women might warp a man's mind, what about HAVING SEX WITH THEM?!

I mean, seriously, come on. As Jesus said about lusting, pornography viewing is committing adultery with the woman in your heart. Which is awful. But not as bad as committing adultery with her IN YOUR BED.

I am simply amazed, even appalled, that any LDS woman would think pornography viewing somehow worse than actual physical adultery.

(Btw, this post has nothing to do with unworthyservant's response or the thread branch that has developed off of it.)

I don't get it either, Vort. They are both wrong.

Do you think that SOME (I don't think we need to generalize nor believe that most LDS women feel this way) women feel this way because there is so much focus on pornography in the church?

I don't understand getting more upset at your husband looking at a picture (and, yes, I do think pornography is all sorts of wrong) than your husband having actual sex with an actual woman. Kind of blows my mind.

[Dravin]

I am simply amazed, even appalled, that any LDS woman would think pornography viewing somehow worse than actual physical adultery.

You know there are some interesting parallels here between a previous thread that devolved into a discussion of preferring one's wife commit the sin of abortion instead of keeping a child conceived of adultery because it would be easier to forgive. Are said people actually stating that pornography is the worse sin, one would think Church discipline differences would suffice to make one doubt such a position, or are they simply claiming they'd have an easier time forgiving? I admit I've skimmed but most of the responses have been, "I can see that because X, Y, and Z." not of the form, "Pornography is objectively a worse sin than adultery."

Edited August 17, 2012 by Dravin

[Windseeker]

Of course, I would prefer neither. But what are the chances he would eventually become careless and expose our kids to it - caused nasty pop-ups, stored magazines in a place he thought no one would look, left it in his vehicle, etc.? How much would his addiction eventually escalate?

Probably to the point that he commits adultery? ...if he doesn't repent and turn around at some point.

My friend's husband's addiction got so bad, he was asking her for things that were painful and told her she was just "doing it wrong", he surfed porn in front of their small children while she was gone at Relief Society (she came home early and caught him), and he maxed out their credit card at a strip club. It started with an uncle who sexually abused him, using porn to lure him in. When his wife was pregnant and didn't feel up to having sex for two days, he was hostile towards her even though she felt sick. It was like he didn't see she had feelings anymore. Porn portrays women as ready, willing, and able at all times. They don't say no, not even to violence. .

I really feel for your friend. This is horrible. As you say there are degrees and this to me is an extreme case. No one should have to deal with this kind of behavior.

Would I rather my husband have an office "romance" or hide out somewhere watching a video of a woman who acts like being gang raped is just great? I would find the first much less mentally deranged. If he felt tempted to look at a picture of a naked woman, that would be different, but it would still hurt me.

There are many degrees of pornography.

Simulated rape is extreme as well. No one here is arguing that pornography in any form is good. All porn is evil, but for the sake of this thread perhaps we should clear the table of all the twisted types of porn. I assumed we are talking about Adultery vs Porn, standard porn as in watching two consenting adults having what most of us would consider standard sex, or looking at newdy pictures.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Windseeker

[Windseeker]

Perhaps the reason some women would prefer adultery is simply because to some women being sexually desired = being loved. To them a betrayal of the mind is more painful than a betrayal of the heart.

[Vort]

Someone in Gospel Doctrine this last Sunday made a very good comment that apostacy usually begins with criticism of church leaders.

And this is true. We should not criticize our leaders, except when they are old, out-of-touch fuddy-duddies with anachronistic morality that damages us by keeping us from engaging in perfectly natural and healthy activities like masturbating, cutting, and beating up our annoying neighbors.

[bytor2112]

And this is true. We should not criticize our leaders, except when they are old, out-of-touch fuddy-duddies with anachronistic morality that damages us by keeping us from engaging in perfectly natural and healthy activities like masturbating, cutting, and beating up our annoying neighbors.

Or when "modern scholarship" sounds better than the words of Prophets and Apostles.

[annewandering]

I am not going to debate if porn is worse than adultery. Its not.

If I see my husband is watching porn I can be upset, angry, whatever. If I see him committing adultery, I can kill her and no more problem.

Edited August 16, 2012 by annewandering

[skalenfehl]

This is a merry-go-round. Viewing pornography is adultery.

22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

23 And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not he shall be cast out.

24 Thou shalt not commit adultery; and he that committeth adultery, and repenteth not, shall be cast out.

16 And verily I say unto you, as I have said before, he that looketh on a woman to lust after her, or if any shall commit adultery in their hearts, they shall not have the Spirit, but shall deny the faith and shall fear.

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Edited August 16, 2012 by skalenfehl

[Wingnut]

A few years ago, RS President Julie Beck advised women when they 'find out' to raise a red flag and stop the relationship.

Source, please.

I definitely think practically speaking that visual porn (not to be confused with books) is the bigger sin for most LDS women. (even though most will not admit this) (There is also a case to be made that theologically masturbation/porn has the larger penalty as well.

What's worse? 1 yr excommunicated OR the greater part of 10 years feeling unworthy to take sacrament. Additionally, Some bishops penalize you for 6 months (no sacrament/no temple/no priesthood privileges)

Consider however that you can be worthy of the sacrament/temple recommend, but still be served divorce papers (women file divorce papers 70% of the time btw) or be rejected for marriage... because of admitting that you looked at porn within the past year.

Most women I know wouldn't think twice about marrying a baptized David Beckham (or similar) (regardless of his sexual past). Surprise, Surprise - it all just magically washes away... when romance is in the air... women make romantic relationship decisions based on emotion/feelings. (and considering the overall package - height, bank account, etc..)

So while adultery/pre-marital sex can get you excommunicated, Porn earns you the eternal hatred from the tribe of lds women.

So even though you could be an otherwise GREAT guy (virgin, temple recommend, boy scout, missionary, never missed a tithing slip, great career, and serving in your ward) most LDS women will pass you up (or divorce you) if porn is brought up.

Ultimately, the semantics of sinning is boring (It's all sin!) and what is interesting (at least to me) is seeing heroic couples learn how to build healthy relationships through all of this.

This is full of all kinds of venom and bitterness. I feel bad for whatever you've experienced, but I can say personally that not all cases are this bad.

Someone in Gospel Doctrine this last Sunday made a very good comment that apostacy usually begins with criticism of church leaders.

My mission president taught this as well.

Do you think that SOME (I don't think we need to generalize nor believe that most LDS women feel this way) women feel this way because there is so much focus on pornography in the church?

Absolutely! When was the last time you heard a talk in General Conference about adultery? Pornography is what gets harped on all the time (and not without good reason), so it's ever-present in the minds of LDS women.

[MorningStar]

Probably to the point that he commits adultery? ...if he doesn't repent and turn around at some point.

I really feel for your friend. This is horrible. As you say there are degrees and this to me is an extreme case. No one should have to deal with this kind of behavior.

Simulated rape is extreme as well. No one here is arguing that pornography in any form is good. All porn is evil, but for the sake of this thread perhaps we should clear the table of all the twisted types of porn. I assumed we are talking about Adultery vs Porn, standard porn as in watching two consenting adults having what most of us would consider standard sex, or looking at newdy pictures.

Unfortunately, a lot of porn addicts don't stick to just "standard porn". After a while it's not exciting enough anymore and with the Internet, there are countless things to click on - some just out of curiosity and might even disgust the addict at first.

The type of porn they look at is just one issue. Where are they looking at it? A guy most likely won't get fired for having an affair, but he would get fired for looking at porn at work. When a friend found out her husband had a major relapse, it had been going on for over a year and he admitted to looking at it at work. Recently his brother had been fired for looking at it at work. No, he didn't have an affair, but she cried a lot and was terrified. Men at that company had been fired for that. She hadn't worked since she was a young adult and they were at risk of losing everything.

Of course, looking at it at home also would have been unacceptable.

So where does a porn addict go to safely look at "standard porn"? Their employer's bathroom? In their car?

This issue is a lot more complicated than "just looking".

Edited August 16, 2012 by MorningStar

[Vort]

It appears there are depths to this whole pornography thing that I have never considered.

Honestly, I am sorry I brought the subject up. Shame on me. I would be happy if the mods would just make this thread go away.

[annewandering]

It appears there are depths to this whole pornography thing that I have never considered.

Honestly, I am sorry I brought the subject up. Shame on me. I would be happy if the mods would just make this thread go away.

Why? It has been interesting.

[Dravin]

It's kinda interesting how often viewing porn is being parsed as having a porn addiction.

[MorningStar]

It appears there are depths to this whole pornography thing that I have never considered.

Honestly, I am sorry I brought the subject up. Shame on me. I would be happy if the mods would just make this thread go away.

Oh, don't get me wrong. If my husband had an affair, I would attack him Miss Piggy style.

[Guest]

I guess I would be more emotionally crushed by an affair, because we would have lost something that we could never get back.

Pornography might worry me more in the long run. You see thread after thread here every week from guys who "just looked" and now can't get free from its clutches.

[MorningStar]

I guess I would be more emotionally crushed by an affair, because we would have lost something that we could never get back.

Pornography might worry me more in the long run. You see thread after thread here every week from guys who "just looked" and now can't get free from its clutches.

A counselor in our stake spoke at a fireside and she said it takes on average of three to four exposures to addict a person. It's a huge worry for me as a mom. When I was in Kindergarten, a friend took me into her parents' bedroom and showed me their magazines. It was awful. That was over 30 years ago. Now with the Internet and kids with their many gadgets, it seems impossible to avoid exposure. I tell my boys if their friends have anything at school and tell them with a mischievious grin, "Hey, come look at this!", ask them what it is. If they don't want to tell them, then walk away.