Going to Mass

[Vort]

As part of his homeschooling curriculum, my 17-year-old has asked me to take him through a course on the history and structure of western music ("western" as in European, not as in Slim Whitman). Since I have little musical talent and only a listener's understanding of the basis of western music, I am basing the course on an outstanding series of 48 lectures by Robert Greenberg called How to Listen To and Understand Great Music from The Teaching Company (audio download of entire course for $95, or you can find it for free at your local public library). The first lectures talk about ancient Greek and then Roman roots of our musical tradition, e.g.

.

He then talks extensively about plainchant and the Roman Catholic Church's intimate involvement in the evolution of music. (By the way, despite being an unrepentant and unreconstructed political liberal and secular humanist, Greenberg's stated attitudes toward the Roman Catholic Church are, to me, surprisingly charitable and even generous. To my relief, he doesn't come across as a Catholic-hater. Quite the opposite.) He points out the deep importance of the structure of Catholic liturgy, specifically the "ordinary" of the Mass, in influencing and encouraging musical development.

So I thought I would attend a Catholic Mass with my son (and any other kids/spouses who cared to come along). I called the local Catholic worship building (not sure what it's called; it's not a cathedral, more like an LDS meetinghouse) and found out their schedule for Masses. The nice lady I talked to suggested that the Sunday morning Mass would most likely be the one of interest to me. It meets exactly when our ward meeting begins, but I figured we can go during the next stake conference.

So my question to any LDS.net participants, especially Catholics: What should I know going in? I have actually attended a couple of Masses before, but I remember very little of them. Obviously, I'm not going to take Communion when the time comes. Can I remain seated and quiet the whole time? Am I expected to rise and kneel with the rest of the congregation? Should I expect congregational singing? I'm primarily going for the experience of musical integration and to witness the structure of a Mass, but I am sensitive that this is a sacred service for the participants, and I want to make sure my actions conform to that sacred character.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Vort

[MorningStar]

St. James Cathedral is the place to go. The acoustics are awesome!

[Vort]

St. James Cathedral is the place to go. The acoustics are awesome!

Unfortunately, I can't finance a trip to England.

[Bini]

Unless it is considered disrespectful, I would probably just rise and kneel with the rest of the congregation but would not partake in Communion.

[Vort]

St. James Cathedral is the place to go. The acoustics are awesome!

Does St. James hold traditional Masses or even, perchance, Latin Masses?

[MorningStar]

I'm pretty sure they do. I went to midnight mass years ago Christmas Eve. They have very good singers, so if you want the most musical experience, I would go there. :) My brother's best friend used to sing there all the time.

[BenRaines]

By brother just attended a High Mass as part of a funeral. Said that it was all in Latin and lasted over two hours.

Ben Raines

[MorningStar]

I heard this at St. James once. Gorgeous!

I also got to sing it with choirs. It's SSAATTBB.

[mcrow]

I may be of some help with this one.

Generally speaking, as long as it does not conflict with your Mormon beliefs, do as the congregation does to the best of your ability. I'm not sure if it is offenseive or not to Mormons to perform the sign of the cross given the differences in the beliefs and the nature of the Father, Sone and Holy Ghost/Spirit. I'm just learning about LDS but I don't see anything that should be against your beliefs in the Mass, barring some conflict with the trinity, it that is an issue.

Obviously, as you stated, you shouldn't take part in the Eucharist as that is reserved for confirmed Catholics. You will notice a lot of difference from church to church when it comes to music. Some churches have a full choir/band others maybe have just one or two people leading the songs and that can vary depending on which service you go to. A lot of Catholic churches have their best music for the Sunday morning mass.

You may or may not have to kneel, some Catholic churches don't have kneelers and don't require kneeling. However, the basic structure of the Mass is exactly the same across the world.

You will fit in fine and most people won't know you don't belong to the church anyway. I get the impression LDS congregations are generally much smaller where as the Catholic Church I was confirmed in typeically has 300 people at each service. So, it's easy to blend in.

Please let me know if there are any questions I can help you with.

[MorningStar]

Another beautiful one.

[mcrow]

By brother just attended a High Mass as part of a funeral. Said that it was all in Latin and lasted over two hours.

Ben Raines

Just to clarify, current Masses are said in english though if requested a latin mass can be peformed for a funeral. And yes, funerals and weddings tend to be long.

Years ago all masses were in latin but that was probably before I was born.

Edited August 24, 2012 by mcrow

[RMGuy]

Vort,

That is awesome. I love learning about and attending other churches from time to time. Some of my favorites have been small country churches in the UK (CofE).

For me, I usually think about how would I want a visitor to behave at our services. What is a respectful degree of participation and what am I personally comfortable with. For example, I don't participate in communion, but do kneel, sing, etc with the congregation. I usually wear a kippah out of respect if I attend a jewish service, but would not wear that Tallit as that is considered disrespectful.

-RM

[C_T_R]

I've attended mass before and just stayed seated. It wasn't a problem. I've also attended Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve and _loved_ it. :)

[mcrow]

I've attended mass before and just stayed seated. It wasn't a problem. I've also attended Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve and _loved_ it. :)

Yes, you can certainly just sit and observe. Nobody is really paying too much attention to what you're doing either way as long as you are being quiet.

I only suggest to do as the congregation does because there is sort of a rythm to a mass and it may make it easier to understand the structure if you follow as much of it as possible.

I should also mention that there is one custom that is done at some churches and not at others. There may be a momemnt where the congregation holds hands during a prayer. This is not a required element, it is a tradition that some churches have. If you are uncomfortable with it you don't have to do it.

[Guest]

Okay, Vort. Here's all I remember from Catholic Mass:

Most Catholic Masses in regular meeting houses use modern music. Some services only have the very minimum music (opening hymn, communion hymn, and closing hymn). And several of the services don't have music at all. The full Catholic cantata liturgy is rare these days (at least in the US). But, a lot of the bigger churches and the Cathedrals have a cantata during the Holy Week.

Now, a lot of big churches and Cathedrals offer mass with a lot of the parts sung. My favorite part is the Psalms. Most churches recite the Psalms. The bigger churches and the Cathedrals sometimes sing the Psalms. If the Archbishop has musical talent, he would sing parts of the mass as well. I love these services. It is very very solemn.

Now, the #1 indicator that you will have a lot of parts of the mass sung is if the parish has a paid music director. And even then, the music director only have a choir for some of the masses, not all. So, you'll need to know which masses have the choir in attendance. Another indicator is if the parish has a volunteer choir with a cantor. But even then, you'll probably get most modern music.

My brother-in-law is a music director for the Catholic Church and he plays the parts of the mass in the classical/baroque style and plays modern hymns for the opening, offertory, communion, and closing songs. But during lent, he plays the entire liturgy in either Bach (Baroque) or Mozart (Classical) compositions. I really, really love these liturgies. It really gets me deep in spiritual mood.

Okay, here's a snap shot of the Catholic Mass:

1.) Introductory Rites - stand up.

You'll sing the opening hymn - usually there's a hymnal infront of you. I would read through the words and if you agree with what is being sung, you can sing if you like.

Yes, you can respond to the Priest if you like as well... when he says, The Lord be with you. You can respond "... and also with you.". That's just a greeting - just like saying God bless you. It's non-denominational. You don't have to say anything, of course, the congregation memorized the responses and they say the responses in unison. Yeah, it may sound wierd at first.

1a - Penetential Rite

Yeah, this is going to be a back and forth between the Priest and the congregation asking for God's mercy and forgiveness and asking the community for forgiveness. If you have a full cantata, this will be sung. If not, you're just going to hear some blah-blah-blah from the Priest about asking for forgiveness to God and to your fellow man. The responses usually say, Lord, have mercy or Christ, have mercy.

Man, if this is sung in the Greek Kyrie, it's super pretty!

1b - Gloria.

This is sung when you get a full choir. But, it's usually sung in the modern style. This is cool to sing even if in modern - Glory to God in the Highest is just really awesome. It sounds Christmassy even. The regular words are compatible with LDS.

1c - Opening Prayer

Priest prays. You just get to bow your head.

2) Liturgy of the Word - yeay, you get to sit down.

The first reading is from the Old Testament.

Then you'll either have the Psalms sung by a cantor or it's just read. Either way, the congregation sings or recites the response.

The second reading is from the Acts or Paul's letters.

Then you get to stand up for the Alleluia (gospel acclaimation) - either sung or recited.

Then you stay standing for the reading of the gospel from the New Testament.

Then you get to sleep, er, sit down for the homily. LOL.

Okay, advice - bring your scriptures if you want to read the "properly translated" version of the readings. Do not pull out your electronic device. You'll get stares! You will find that nobody brings scriptures to church. Maybe you'll get one or two rare ones. But you'll be fine opening your own scriptures. Sometimes the readings are printed on a book infront of you in the Catholic translation of the bible.

Then here's the tricky part - after the homily, everybody stands for the profession of faith - yep, the Apostle's creed or Nicene's creed. You get to keep silent on this part. You'll be standing for a while because the rest of the mass up to the communion is standing.

Next you get the General Intercession Prayer. Basically the priest or a lay minister reads some prayer requests and you get to respond with "Lord, hear our prayer" or some such.

3.) Liturgy of the Eucharist

The priest is going to say some prayer to prepare the altar. Some people from the congragation is going to offer some gifts together with the bread and wine. Offertory song is usually sung. There's some back and forth responses between priest and congregation.

Then you get to recite or sing the Sanctus (Hossana in the Highest) then you get to recite or sing the Memorial Acclamation (Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again). Also compatible with LDS (except they call the memorial acclamation the mystery of faith, but no biggie).

Then you get to recite or sing the Doxology (Amen).

I love these songs even when sung in modern style.

4.) Communion Rite

You'll have the congregation sing or recite the Lord's Prayer (Our father who art in heaven...). Some congregations hold hands during this part. Then you get to offer peace to everyone. Some congregations actually shake every hand they can reach.

Then you get to recite or sing the Lamb of God. Compatible with LDS as well.

Then you all kneel down for the Communion Prayer. I prefer to sit instead of kneel on this one. This is when the transubstantiation is supposed to happen and the kneeling is an acknowledgement of the sanctity of this event.

Then the congregation is going to line up for the bread and wine. You can remain seated here too. The communion hymn is going to be sung on this part.

Then after everyone has had their turn, there will be a period of silence for personal prayer.

Then the priest will either say or sing a prayer after the communion.

5.) Concluding Rite - stand up again.

There will be some back-and-forth between Priest and congregation and then everybody gets to sing the Closing Song and the priest exits and this is when you can leave as well.

Hope this helps.

Edited August 24, 2012 by anatess

[Connie]

When i attended to see my niece baptized, i only stood with the congregation when they stood for the baptism portion. Every other time they stood or what not, i remained seated.

I remember being surprised by the music. It was not at all what i expected.

[mordorbund]

There's a small Orthodox church in Seattle you could also consider going to (St Nectarios). I went to their Christmas Mass this year. The service is in English. They don't use any instruments except voices. The "Lord have mercy" portions are sounded off like carillon bell chimes, with congregational choruses of "Most Holy Theotokos" (that may be Christmas specific though). They use the Julian calendar (take THAT Gregory XIII) so even if you think you've already missed a particular holiday mass, you may not have (I'm not familiar enough with any branch of Catholicism to know when anything besides Lent, Easter, and Christmas are going on).

[mcrow]

Okay, Vort. Here's all I remember from Catholic Mass:

Most Catholic Masses in regular meeting houses use modern music. Some services only have the very minimum music (opening hymn, communion hymn, and closing hymn). And several of the services don't have music at all. The full Catholic cantata liturgy is rare these days (at least in the US). But, a lot of the bigger churches and the Cathedrals have a cantata during the Holy Week.

Now, a lot of big churches and Cathedrals offer mass with a lot of the parts sung. My favorite part is the Psalms. Most churches recite the Psalms. The bigger churches and the Cathedrals sometimes sing the Psalms. If the Archbishop has musical talent, he would sing parts of the mass as well. I love these services. It is very very solemn.

Now, the #1 indicator that you will have a lot of parts of the mass sung is if the parish has a paid music director. And even then, the music director only have a choir for some of the masses, not all. So, you'll need to know which masses have the choir in attendance. Another indicator is if the parish has a volunteer choir with a cantor. But even then, you'll probably get most modern music.

My brother-in-law is a music director for the Catholic Church and he plays the parts of the mass in the classical/baroque style and plays modern hymns for the opening, offertory, communion, and closing songs. But during lent, he plays the entire liturgy in either Bach (Baroque) or Mozart (Classical) compositions. I really, really love these liturgies. It really gets me deep in spiritual mood.

Okay, here's a snap shot of the Catholic Mass:

1.) Introductory Rites - stand up.

You'll sing the opening hymn - usually there's a hymnal infront of you. I would read through the words and if you agree with what is being sung, you can sing if you like.

Yes, you can respond to the Priest if you like as well... when he says, The Lord be with you. You can respond "... and also with you.". That's just a greeting - just like saying God bless you. It's non-denominational. You don't have to say anything, of course, the congregation memorized the responses and they say the responses in unison. Yeah, it may sound wierd at first.

1a - Penetential Rite

Yeah, this is going to be a back and forth between the Priest and the congregation asking for God's mercy and forgiveness and asking the community for forgiveness. If you have a full cantata, this will be sung. If not, you're just going to hear some blah-blah-blah from the Priest about asking for forgiveness to God and to your fellow man. The responses usually say, Lord, have mercy or Christ, have mercy.

Man, if this is sung in the Greek Kyrie, it's super pretty!

1b - Gloria.

This is sung when you get a full choir. But, it's usually sung in the modern style. This is cool to sing even if in modern - Glory to God in the Highest is just really awesome. It sounds Christmassy even. The regular words are compatible with LDS.

1c - Opening Prayer

Priest prays. You just get to bow your head.

2) Liturgy of the Word - yeay, you get to sit down.

The first reading is from the Old Testament.

Then you'll either have the Psalms sung by a cantor or it's just read. Either way, the congregation sings or recites the response.

The second reading is from the Acts or Paul's letters.

Then you get to stand up for the Alleluia (gospel acclaimation) - either sung or recited.

Then you stay standing for the reading of the gospel from the New Testament.

Then you get to sleep, er, sit down for the homily. LOL.

Okay, advice - bring your scriptures if you want to read the "properly translated" version of the readings. Do not pull out your electronic device. You'll get stares! You will find that nobody brings scriptures to church. Maybe you'll get one or two rare ones. But you'll be fine opening your own scriptures. Sometimes the readings are printed on a book infront of you in the Catholic translation of the bible.

Then here's the tricky part - after the homily, everybody stands for the profession of faith - yep, the Apostle's creed or Nicene's creed. You get to keep silent on this part. You'll be standing for a while because the rest of the mass up to the communion is standing.

Next you get the General Intercession Prayer. Basically the priest or a lay minister reads some prayer requests and you get to respond with "Lord, hear our prayer" or some such.

3.) Liturgy of the Eucharist

The priest is going to say some prayer to prepare the altar. Some people from the congragation is going to offer some gifts together with the bread and wine. Offertory song is usually sung. There's some back and forth responses between priest and congregation.

Then you get to recite or sing the Sanctus (Hossana in the Highest) then you get to recite or sing the Memorial Acclamation (Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again). Also compatible with LDS (except they call the memorial acclamation the mystery of faith, but no biggie).

Then you get to recite or sing the Doxology (Amen).

I love these songs even when sung in modern style.

4.) Communion Rite

You'll have the congregation sing or recite the Lord's Prayer (Our father who art in heaven...). Some congregations hold hands during this part. Then you get to offer peace to everyone. Some congregations actually shake every hand they can reach.

Then you get to recite or sing the Lamb of God. Compatible with LDS as well.

Then you all kneel down for the Communion Prayer. I prefer to sit instead of kneel on this one. This is when the transubstantiation is supposed to happen and the kneeling is an acknowledgement of the sanctity of this event.

Then the congregation is going to line up for the bread and wine. You can remain seated here too. The communion hymn is going to be sung on this part.

Then after everyone has had their turn, there will be a period of silence for personal prayer.

Then the priest will either say or sing a prayer after the communion.

5.) Concluding Rite - stand up again.

There will be some back-and-forth between Priest and congregation and then everybody gets to sing the Closing Song and the priest exits and this is when you can leave as well.

Hope this helps.

This is mostly right but the liturgy changed a bit starting last fall. The basic structure is the same but the wording is different.

[dahlia]

Just to clarify, current Masses are said in english

And thus began the decline of the Catholic Church in the US.

I'm only slightly kidding. The Latin Mass was beautiful - one could easily get a Missal with the Latin on one side and English on the other, so you could understand what was going on. I found the Latin Mass mentally transporting, but maybe just because I grew up with it.

I have to admit, after more than a year of being LDS, I still want to make the sign of the cross sometimes. Maybe I can introduce it in my ward and it will catch on?

[Saldrin]

from my music 1010 notes

the plain chant and Gregorian chant were in the period of the middle ages from 476 to 1450

Gregorian chant. Pope Gregory had them scribed –

1. Unaccompanied

2. syllabic- one note sung to each syllable of text

3. Neumatic – small groups of notes up to 5-6 notes sung to a syllable

4. melismatic- Large groups of notes et to a single syllable of text

some composers from this period

• Machaut

• Hildegard of Bingen (Hildegard is interesting composer for the church, if i remember right she made the first women's choir and she was into herbal medicine,

Masses came in during the Renaissance era 1450-1600 and is considered the golden age of a cappella

Mass was one of 4 different genres popular in renaissance

1. Motet- 3-4 voices with a sacred text usually sung by a choir

2. Madrigal- short piece set to a one stanza poem usually sung as a solo or by small group

3. Mass-

4. Chanson –secular French song.

Mass Ordinary

1. Kyrie – Prayer for mercy

2. Gloria- Joyful hymn of praise

3. Credo- confession of faith

4. Sanctus-song of praise concludes with Hosanna

5. Agnus dei –lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world-sung three times.

Requiem – Mass for the dead

here are some Composers of note

1. Giovanni Palestrina 1525-1595

2. Gabrielle

3. Monteverdi 1567-1643

4. John Farmer 1570-1601

5. Josquin

6. Du Fay

About 60 years ago the catholic church started allowing

masses in a country's native language.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Saldrin

[mcrow]

And thus began the decline of the Catholic Church in the US.

I'm only slightly kidding. The Latin Mass was beautiful - one could easily get a Missal with the Latin on one side and English on the other, so you could understand what was going on. I found the Latin Mass mentally transporting, but maybe just because I grew up with it.

I have to admit, after more than a year of being LDS, I still want to make the sign of the cross sometimes. Maybe I can introduce it in my ward and it will catch on?

A lot of people still prefer a Latin mass and you are correct, there is a certain beauty to it.

[mcrow]

from my music 1010 notes

the plain chant and Gregorian chant were in the period of the middle ages from 476 to 1450

Gregorian chant. Pope Gregory had them scribed –

1. Unaccompanied

2. syllabic- one note sung to each syllable of text

3. Neumatic – small groups of notes up to 5-6 notes sung to a syllable

4. melismatic- Large groups of notes et to a single syllable of text

some composers from this period

• Machaut

• Hildegard of Bingen (Hildegard is interesting composer for the church, if i remember right she made the first women's choir and she was into herbal medicine,

Masses came in during the Renaissance era 1450-1600 and is considered the golden age of a cappella

Mass was one of 4 different genres popular in renaissance

1. Motet- 3-4 voices with a sacred text usually sung by a choir

2. Madrigal- short piece set to a one stanza poem usually sung as a solo or by small group

3. Mass-

4. Chanson –secular French song.

Mass Ordinary

1. Kyrie – Prayer for mercy

2. Gloria- Joyful hymn of praise

3. Credo- confession of faith

4. Sanctus-song of praise concludes with Hosanna

5. Agnus dei –lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world-sung three times.

Requiem – Mass for the dead

here are some Composers of note

1. Giovanni Palestrina 1525-1595

2. Gabrielle

3. Monteverdi 1567-1643

4. John Farmer 1570-1601

5. Josquin

6. Du Fay

About 60 years ago the catholic church started allowing

masses in a country's native language.

I love Gregorian chant. I have a some MP3 from Vox Archangeli which is a band that plays more modern music/electronic music and sings Gregorian Chant with it. Both male and female voices in it, very beautiful.