What is free will?

[Traveler]

I am wondering if we can come to an agreement and define the elements necessary in order for free will to exist?

I will start with some ideas.

1. A person cannot express free will if they are ignorant of all the possibilities and results of those possibilities. They must understand the choices completely in order exercise free will.

2. The choices must include what the person wills to be. If all the choices result in something a person does not will - they have no free will or they are denied their free will under such circumstance.

The Traveler

[Vort]

Some silly whale movie from a decade or two ago. But I think the whale's name was "Willy".

[prisonchaplain]

I would suggest a far more limited definition. So long as one is free to choose between a choice that is godly and one that is not there is free will. We often do not fully understand our choices. When we make the wrong ones, we usually can look back and say, "I did not realize it would be this bad, but I did know I was wrong."

[applepansy]

Somewhere in the definition needs to be the understanding that even though we are free to choose we don't get to choose the consequences of our choices.

[ZionsRodeVos]

I am wondering if we can come to an agreement and define the elements necessary in order for free will to exist?

I will start with some ideas.

1. A person cannot express free will if they are ignorant of all the possibilities and results of those possibilities. They must understand the choices completely in order exercise free will.

2. The choices must include what the person wills to be. If all the choices result in something a person does not will - they have no free will or they are denied their free will under such circumstance.

The Traveler

Sometimes our choices are limited because of others choices. For example, I had not planned to move but because I was renting month to month the management decided they wanted me to move. I think this addresses what you put in number 2. So the option I wanted (to not move) has been taken away and is not among the realm of choices for me. So all possible choices for me do not include the one I want. I still have free will to choose where I move to.

As for number 1, I think our understanding of the world around us changes as we experience life and the results of our choices. We do exercise free will based on our understanding of the choices even if such understanding is so small that we would be considered ignorant.

A simple choice is to read the scriptures or not. The first time we choose to read the scriptures, do we really know what kind of impact it can have on our lives? When we make a decision to read the scriptures daily, do we really know how our lives may change? I believe few understand the impact reading the scriptures will have and we certainly don't have personal experience to help our decision making before the first time we read in the scriptures. Could any one accurately predict all the ways they have changed because of reading in the scriptures before reading for the first time? We have free will that we can use to make such a choice and many others even if we don't understand fully the possible outcomes of those choices.

[C_T_R]

I am wondering if we can come to an agreement and define the elements necessary in order for free will to exist?

Free will exists, period. Circumstances can limit our choices, but there is always a choice, barring duress.

1. A person cannot express free will if they are ignorant of all the possibilities and results of those possibilities. They must understand the choices completely in order exercise free will.

Absolutely untrue.

"[You will receive] according to [your] desire" (Alma 29:4; emphasis added).

"[And you will receive] according to [your] wills" (Alma 29:4; emphasis added).

I'm not sure we grasp how the final judgment will reflect our choices! But my desires and choices really will be honored! How manifestly just of God! How trembling for me! There is the anxiety protruding once again. Are my desires sufficiently educated to choose wisely (see Alma 13:3, 10)? Could the further education of my desires be the most important form of continuing education?

So it is that the chilly dawn of realization is further felt: Real choosing bristles with alternatives, enticements, defining moments, accountability, counterfeits, and consequences!

Why then do some actually choose to remain "willingly . . . ignorant," such as of impending Messianic events (2 Peter 3:5; emphasis added)? Yes, some seem to say, "My mind is made up, so don't confuse me with cosmic facts. Instead, let me compartmentalize my life and my choices."

One cannot stay, however, on that naïve plane of understanding very long when he or she reads these next sobering words. They are so ripe with implications. They inform us that some rebels are simply

"not willing to enjoy that which they might have received" (D&C 88:32; emphasis added).

That cold wind is really blowing at the edges of my mind now. Foregoing enjoyment? But why? Knowingly turning down something vastly better? Why?

So this is a real war—with real casualties—in which there can be no real pacifists. - Neal Maxwell, Free To Choose

"That every man may act in doctrine . . . according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment" (D&C 101:78; emphasis added).

We are free to choose even if we are ignorant of what it is we are choosing. Whether you'll be held accountable for that at the last day is between yourself and God. He is no fool, and there's no manipulating Him.

Also, "Whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free" (Helaman 14:30; emphasis added). That is pure truth. Whether we choose ignorantly or not, iniquity is something the perpetrator deals with in THIS life, whether consciously or unconsciously. I've seen it.. I've witnessed it. I've watched people again and again make choices that they lose themselves to. It's amazing, and it never fails.

I have many challenges that hold me back from choosing what I would choose to be in this life. I would choose very differently if I had the choice before me. However I DO have the choice how to handle it.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

Courage to change the things I can,

And wisdom to know the difference.

2. The choices must include what the person wills to be. If all the choices result in something a person does not will - they have no free will or they are denied their free will under such circumstance.

No way. Free will doesn't mean YOUR will. It means you're free to choose between good and evil. It doesn't mean we get to choose what our lives get to be like or how others treat us; what our trials will be (sometimes) and also what the consequences of our choices are (which can become life-long trials).

Sometimes, in our earthly impatience, we may lose sight of the Lord’s precious promises and disconnect our obedience from the fulfillment of these promises. The Lord has declared:

“Who am I, saith the Lord, that have promised and have not fulfilled?

“I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing.

“Then they say in their hearts: This is not the work of the Lord, for his promises are not fulfilled. But wo unto such, for their reward lurketh beneath, and not from above” (D&C 58:31–33). - Spencer J. Condie

[rameumptom]

Free will does not require understanding all the results/possibilities. We do not know how what we do today will affect future generations. If I go into law rather than medicine, and it means my kid ends up being president, instead of a neurosurgeon, does that mean I do not have agency? Of course not.

Free will does not require that a person have all possible choices. If I choose to jump off a cliff, wishing to fly, do I not have free will even though gravity prevents me from flying?

Free will only requires that we are free to choose between alternatives. It does not mean we must be given all choices, only all available choices. It does not mean I have to have any knowledge at all regarding it, simply that I have a choice to make.

The key to free will is that Christ atoned for our sins, so we can make choices and recover from the bad choices we make. We are not trapped to be demons forever by Adam's transgression (or anyone else's), but we can choose it for ourselves.

[Traveler]

I would suggest a far more limited definition. So long as one is free to choose between a choice that is godly and one that is not there is free will. We often do not fully understand our choices. When we make the wrong ones, we usually can look back and say, "I did not realize it would be this bad, but I did know I was wrong."

If a person did not know it was wrong - how is that free will?

If an infant does not have capability to understand the difference between that which is godly and that which is not or if someone is mentally challenged you are sure their choice is free will?

You are correct we often do not fully understand our choices - and my claim is that if the choices are not understood we - cannot say, with true conviction that such a choice was 100% - no exceptions - our will.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Free will exists, period. Circumstances can limit our choices, but there is always a choice, barring duress.

That is my point - duress can only be when one's will is compromised. But when in this life is there no duress?

"That every man may act in doctrine . . . according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment" (D&C 101:78; emphasis added).

We are free to choose even if we are ignorant of what it is we are choosing. Whether you'll be held accountable for that at the last day is between yourself and God. He is no fool, and there's no manipulating Him.

Also, "Whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free" (Helaman 14:30; emphasis added). That is pure truth. Whether we choose ignorantly or not, iniquity is something the perpetrator deals with in THIS life, whether consciously or unconsciously. I've seen it.. I've witnessed it. I've watched people again and again make choices that they lose themselves to. It's amazing, and it never fails.

I have many challenges that hold me back from choosing what I would choose to be in this life. I would choose very differently if I had the choice before me. However I DO have the choice how to handle it.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

Courage to change the things I can,

And wisdom to know the difference.

No way. Free will doesn't mean YOUR will. It means you're free to choose between good and evil. It doesn't mean we get to choose what our lives get to be like or how others treat us; what our trials will be (sometimes) and also what the consequences of our choices are (which can become life-long trials).

Would you agree then that you ought to at least know that there is a choice and what all the possible options really are?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Free will does not require understanding all the results/possibilities. We do not know how what we do today will affect future generations. If I go into law rather than medicine, and it means my kid ends up being president, instead of a neurosurgeon, does that mean I do not have agency? Of course not.

Free will does not require that a person have all possible choices. If I choose to jump off a cliff, wishing to fly, do I not have free will even though gravity prevents me from flying?

Free will only requires that we are free to choose between alternatives. It does not mean we must be given all choices, only all available choices. It does not mean I have to have any knowledge at all regarding it, simply that I have a choice to make.

The key to free will is that Christ atoned for our sins, so we can make choices and recover from the bad choices we make. We are not trapped to be demons forever by Adam's transgression (or anyone else's), but we can choose it for ourselves.

If there is important information being withheld that, without question will affect you choice - how can we say that the choice without that information was a choice of free will?

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

If a person did not know it was wrong - how is that free will?

If an infant does not have capability to understand the difference between that which is godly and that which is not or if someone is mentally challenged you are sure their choice is free will?

You are correct we often do not fully understand our choices - and my claim is that if the choices are not understood we - cannot say, with true conviction that such a choice was 100% - no exceptions - our will.

The Traveler

You are confusing free will with personal accountability. A person has free will to choose. The baby can choose to eat or not eat its veggies. That is free will. The baby is not responsible for consequences or sins, as the atonement takes care of things done in ignorance or innocence.

[HiJolly]

If there is important information being withheld that, without question will affect you choice - how can we say that the choice without that information was a choice of free will?

The Traveler

Because you still had to choose, ignorance notwithstanding.

HiJolly

[rameumptom]

If there is important information being withheld that, without question will affect you choice - how can we say that the choice without that information was a choice of free will?

The Traveler

Because you still have the choice between the available options. We do not know all things. No one does. None of us knows how what we do today will affect the earth or humankind a century or a millennia from now. We may not understand all the consequences even in the short term.

This is why we have a Savior. He takes the responsibility off the ignorant and innocent, and allows those who know better to repent and start over. This allows us to learn from our own choices good from evil. A little baby could not learn to walk or choose to walk (and they choose when they are ready), without using free will - even if they do not understand all of the future implications (walking to school, learning to drive, getting an education, etc). But the choice on such a scale allows them to learn to manage free will on larger scales later.

[Traveler]

Because you still had to choose, ignorance notwithstanding.

HiJolly

If an ignorant choice is still a choice - notwithstanding - explain to me why we do baptisms for the dead?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Because you still have the choice between the available options. We do not know all things. No one does. None of us knows how what we do today will affect the earth or humankind a century or a millennia from now. We may not understand all the consequences even in the short term.

This is why we have a Savior. He takes the responsibility off the ignorant and innocent, and allows those who know better to repent and start over. This allows us to learn from our own choices good from evil. A little baby could not learn to walk or choose to walk (and they choose when they are ready), without using free will - even if they do not understand all of the future implications (walking to school, learning to drive, getting an education, etc). But the choice on such a scale allows them to learn to manage free will on larger scales later.

It is my honest opinion that you have this 100% backwards. I believe we have a Savior for our mortal probation because in this life our choices are not really nor can they be choices of our free will. And that without a Savior no man has free will or will ever have free will. The time will come when when we can exercise free will and that will be the time appointed for repentance has been completed and passed.

The Traveler

[HiJolly]

If an ignorant choice is still a choice - notwithstanding - explain to me why we do baptisms for the dead?

The Traveler

Because we choose to. (obviously you're looking for something here - better spell it out for me)

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

It is my honest opinion that you have this 100% backwards. I believe we have a Savior for our mortal probation because in this life our choices are not really nor can they be choices of our free will. And that without a Savior no man has free will or will ever have free will. The time will come when when we can exercise free will and that will be the time appointed for repentance has been completed and passed.

The Traveler

I think it is better for us & the people around us if we think we have free will.

HiJolly

[Traveler]

Because we choose to. (obviously you're looking for something here - better spell it out for me)

HiJolly

It is so the dead can have a free will choice.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I think it is better for us & the people around us if we think we have free will.

HiJolly

Interesting - I find forgiveness much easier realizing that no one really knows what they are doing. If they did - why should they be forgiven?

I think we are all better off realizing that without Christ and the atonement we will never have a free will choice. I think the term for those without free will is in essence the bondage of hell.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

If a person did not know it was wrong - how is that free will?

My sense is that you insist upon a comprehensive "knowing," while I see God judging people who simply understood that they were wrong, whether they had all the details or not.

If an infant does not have capability to understand the difference between that which is godly and that which is not or if someone is mentally challenged you are sure their choice is free will?

I agree with this. Although the doctrine is one of our weaker ones, as far as scripture support goes, I believe there is an "age of accountability," before which there is no judgment.

You are correct we often do not fully understand our choices - and my claim is that if the choices are not understood we - cannot say, with true conviction that such a choice was 100% - no exceptions - our will.

The Traveler

We can, of course, be tricked. However, I can imagine cases where I might understand less than 10% of what is going on, and how my choice will hurt others, and yet still be held accountable by God for my sinful decision.

[estradling75]

If an ignorant choice is still a choice - notwithstanding - explain to me why we do baptisms for the dead?

The Traveler

Because of the Atonement... God in his mercy has provided away to undo the eternal consequence of ignorant choice and replace it with a better choice when we are more informed

[C_T_R]

That is my point - duress can only be when one's will is compromised. But when in this life is there no duress?

I misspoke earlier.. I had a different understanding of the definition of duress. So free will is always there. Let me reiterate that free will is not YOUR will.

"Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other" (2 Nephi 2:16).

In essence the gift we have through the great Plan of Salvation is the freedom to choose to give our wills over to good or to evil, whereas Lucifer's plan was that there would be NO freedom to choose, and all would be saved by force.. which makes no sense at all but I won't get started on that.

The scriptures remind us there is, "an opposition in all things" (2 Nephi 2:11). Our circumstances reflect our choices in this life, in the life before this, the choices of our forefathers and how those choices can literally be written into DNA; they also reflect a loving, tutoring Father in Heaven who knows what we can handle and knows what we need to learn. *I* would like to be able to go get an education at University, have a wonderful husband and 2.3 children, or at the very least have the energy to go to the gym a few times a week (and actually be able to BE in the gym). But that isn't what free agency is about.

I have circumstances I would never choose. We all do. Several people in my life over the years have said to me, after related some of my trials to them, that I am "in prison," which is true. Duress has definitely been a part of my life, and a significant one at that. But I've had free agency to choose whether to be bitter about it; whether to be engulfed in sorrow, or self-pity to the point of paralysis in my progress; or to say, "Okay, Lord, help me learn what it is you'd have me learn." I'm not sitting here saying I've been perfect. But that's what free agency is. The freedom to choose to *give* our agency over to Satan, the deceiver, and the father of NEEDLESS pain and suffering, or to *give* our agency over to God, who in turn BLESSES us with freedom of Spirit even in prison, even in a painful body, even in our firey furnaces. A.S, Byatt wrote, "No mere human can stand in a fire and not be consumed." I believe that. We're changed IF we choose that.. into something greater than a mere human, who can stand in fire and NOT be consumed.

I was told once that exaltation is not something we receive, like a gift handed to us, but something we become. Kind of like saying if we showed up on the other side of the veil obese, and God snapped his fingers and turned us into supermodels. That's a crass analogy, but it gets the point across. Exaltation is what we become. It's a choice. Line upon line, precept upon precept. And I gotta say, it's something we can ENJOY in this life, even before it's over. That in a very real sense we can live in higher dimensions of understanding and seeing everything around us.

Would you agree then that you ought to at least know that there is a choice and what all the possible options really are?

I am free to choose, even if I can neither be immune from the consequences of my wrong choices nor avoid accountability (see Romans 14:12; D&C 101:78). - Neal Maxwell

After I've explained what I believe free agency is, I'm not sure you'd still be asking this question. Every choice we make is enticed by either good or evil and it's our choice which side to give it to.

The Lord's long-suffering allows for all to make the wrong choices. However, as I quoted earlier, the most important form of continuing education is the education of our desires. The Lord will offer you chances to learn, opportunities to grow, and you're free to choose them or not. But it doesn't change the fact that if you're choosing to give your agency over to the evil one, you're not only causing (needless) harm and suffering to yourself, and all those whom you associate.

People don't see things as choices a lot of the time unless they're pleasing to them. But the choice is there. The choice is there, whether they recognize it or not. And they DO make choices, whether they recognize it or not. This is the clinical experience of mortality. So no, I would not agree with that thought.

All possible options? It would be nice if I could know what all my possible options are with the limitations I have. What I truly can do and what I truly can't do. But that isn't how it works at all. I'm free to figure this out to the best of my knowledge, to rely on God and ask Him for guidance, and choose to see every blessing and mercy He's extended to me. No, God expects us to work; to look for our options; and to decide who we want to be even with all our physical limitations and our finite mind frames in this realm. It's on US to choose exaltation or not. It's on US to choose to progress or not. Truly it's on US, because of the atonement, to choose whether our souls are saved or not. Our desires and choices REALLY will be honored! I see why Neal Maxwell said, "I'm not sure we really grasp that." The responsibility of free agency is intense: the implications could not be more important.. and that's why people need to become aware.

Edited August 30, 2012 by C_T_R

[Traveler]

I misspoke earlier.. I had a different understanding of the definition of duress. So free will is always there. Let me reiterate that free will is not YOUR will.

"Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other" (2 Nephi 2:16).

In essence the gift we have through the great Plan of Salvation is the freedom to choose to give our wills over to good or to evil, whereas Lucifer's plan was that there would be NO freedom to choose, and all would be saved by force.. which makes no sense at all but I won't get started on that.

The scriptures remind us there is, "an opposition in all things" (2 Nephi 2:11). Our circumstances reflect our choices in this life, in the life before this, the choices of our forefathers and how those choices can literally be written into DNA; they also reflect a loving, tutoring Father in Heaven who knows what we can handle and knows what we need to learn. *I* would like to be able to go get an education at University, have a wonderful husband and 2.3 children, or at the very least have the energy to go to the gym a few times a week (and actually be able to BE in the gym). But that isn't what free agency is about.

I have circumstances I would never choose. We all do. Several people in my life over the years have said to me, after related some of my trials to them, that I am "in prison," which is true. Duress has definitely been a part of my life, and a significant one at that. But I've had free agency to choose whether to be bitter about it; whether to be engulfed in sorrow, or self-pity to the point of paralysis in my progress; or to say, "Okay, Lord, help me learn what it is you'd have me learn." I'm not sitting here saying I've been perfect. But that's what free agency is. The freedom to choose to *give* our agency over to Satan, the deceiver, and the father of NEEDLESS pain and suffering, or to *give* our agency over to God, who in turn BLESSES us with freedom of Spirit even in prison, even in a painful body, even in our firey furnaces. A.S, Byatt wrote, "No mere human can stand in a fire and not be consumed." I believe that. We're changed IF we choose that.. into something greater than a mere human, who can stand in fire and NOT be consumed.

I was told once that exaltation is not something we receive, like a gift handed to us, but something we become. Kind of like saying if we showed up on the other side of the veil obese, and God snapped his fingers and turned us into supermodels. That's a crass analogy, but it gets the point across. Exaltation is what we become. It's a choice. Line upon line, precept upon precept. And I gotta say, it's something we can ENJOY in this life, even before it's over. That in a very real sense we can live in higher dimensions of understanding and seeing everything around us.

After I've explained what I believe free agency is, I'm not sure you'd still be asking this question. Every choice we make is enticed by either good or evil and it's our choice which side to give it to.

The Lord's long-suffering allows for all to make the wrong choices. However, as I quoted earlier, the most important form of continuing education is the education of our desires. The Lord will offer you chances to learn, opportunities to grow, and you're free to choose them or not. But it doesn't change the fact that if you're choosing to give your agency over to the evil one, you're not only causing (needless) harm and suffering to yourself, and all those whom you associate.

People don't see things as choices a lot of the time unless they're pleasing to them. But the choice is there. The choice is there, whether they recognize it or not. And they DO make choices, whether they recognize it or not. This is the clinical experience of mortality. So no, I would not agree with that thought.

All possible options? It would be nice if I could know what all my possible options are with the limitations I have. What I truly can do and what I truly can't do. But that isn't how it works at all. I'm free to figure this out to the best of my knowledge, to rely on God and ask Him for guidance, and choose to see every blessing and mercy He's extended to me. No, God expects us to work; to look for our options; and to decide who we want to be even with all our physical limitations and our finite mind frames in this realm. It's on US to choose exaltation or not. It's on US to choose to progress or not. Truly it's on US, because of the atonement, to choose whether our souls are saved or not. Our desires and choices REALLY will be honored! I see why Neal Maxwell said, "I'm not sure we really grasp that." The responsibility of free agency is intense: the implications could not be more important.. and that's why people need to become aware.

I think you are confusing agency with free will and calling it free agency. An agent acts for another free will acts for one's self. We can use our free will to become a agent of G-d or Satan.

The Traveler

[C_T_R]

I think you are confusing agency with free will and calling it free agency. An agent acts for another free will acts for one's self. We can use our free will to become a agent of G-d or Satan.

The Traveler

Mm, not confusing it here. It's basically an issue of semantics. EDIT: "Agency" is the term used by God in the scriptures. In every class I've ever attended whether it be church or institute, they've used the term, "Free Agency." Regardless, we are free agents.. to use free will to decide between good and evil, and the scripture I quoted in my post before this one says men could not act for himself save he were enticed by one or the other. So it fits with your description of an agent I suppose.

Edited August 30, 2012 by C_T_R

[Traveler]

Mm, not confusing it here. It's basically an issue of semantics. "Free Agency" is the term used by God in the scriptures. We are free agents.. to use free will to decide between good and evil, and the scripture I quoted in my post before this one says men could not act for himself save he were enticed by one or the other. So it fits with your description of an agent I suppose.

Where in scripture (standard works) is the term "free agency" used?

The Traveler