Who is Babylon the Great?

[marcostolto]

i am finding it difficult to believe that 1 Nephi 13:5 is a symbolic reference. it is clearly refering to a single church, that is more abominable than all the others. if this was symbolic then the rest of 1 Nephi 13 would also need to be symbolic, yet 1 Nephi 13:12 says "And i looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters, and i beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and "wrought upon the man;" my understanding of this passage is that it is referring to a literal person, and 1 Nephi 13:20 that says "..and i beheld a "book and it was carried forth among them", a literal book, the Book of Mormon.

so my question is :

1) who was this person? and

2) what time period is this verse referring to (what year?)

thank you for your replies, and apologies for these questions. if there are any lds.net members who are in contact with any Italian LDS members, residing either in Durban, or any other part of South Africa, would appreciate this information. many thanks

[Guest]

i am finding it difficult to believe that 1 Nephi 13:5 is a symbolic reference. it is clearly refering to a single church, that is more abominable than all the others. if this was symbolic then the rest of 1 Nephi 13 would also need to be symbolic, yet 1 Nephi 13:12 says "And i looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters, and i beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and "wrought upon the man;" my understanding of this passage is that it is referring to a literal person, and 1 Nephi 13:20 that says "..and i beheld a "book and it was carried forth among them", a literal book, the Book of Mormon.

so my question is :

1) who was this person? and

2) what time period is this verse referring to (what year?)

thank you for your replies, and apologies for these questions. if there are any lds.net members who are in contact with any Italian LDS members, residing either in Durban, or any other part of South Africa, would appreciate this information. many thanks

Sigh.

There's no point in us LDS folks telling you what 1 Nephi means because you're not going to believe what we say anyway.

How about you go and read the entire booik. You can always start with the ENTIRE book of 1 Nephi and move on to the rest of the Book of Mormon. And here, you can use this as your guide to understanding what it means - if you are even willing to believe ANY references from the OFFICIAL LDS source:

Book of Mormon is here: Book of Mormon | LDS.org

The BOM Study Guide chapter for chapter is here: https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-student-study-guide?lang=eng

And if you want a "grouping of topics" - groups related BOM chapters together to form one topic, you can use this one -

Study Guide is here: https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-class-member-study-guide?lang=eng

The great and abominable church is discussed in Lesson 4.

And if that's not enough info you can go and look up the Teacher's Manual here: https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual?lang=eng

And while you're at it, go ahead and find a Missionary that will be more than happy to explain things to you by entering your location here: Meet with the Missionaries | Mormon.org

Good luck.

[marcostolto]

i think i will terminate my online discussions on the Book of Mormon..i will contact the LDS missionaries..when am ready..many thanks to everyone for taking the time to answer my questions

[Guest]

i think i will terminate my online discussions on the Book of Mormon..i will contact the LDS missionaries..when am ready..many thanks to everyone for taking the time to answer my questions

No, no. We don't want you to terminate your online discussions. Okay - you do need to terminate your Catholic Answers Forum discussions. It's brutal for Mormons over there. It's better for you to discuss such things here on this forum. It's what we are here for!

The only suggestion I want to make is... ask the question and then prepare to listen to the answer. If something is not clear, then ask for clarification. It is frustrating when you already have your mind made up on what you think things mean, then we tell you otherwise and you don't believe it. It makes it very difficult for us to explain things to you.

There are tons of misunderstandings, misrepresentations, misinterpretations of Mormon doctrine on the internet. I can guarantee you one thing - here on lds.net you will get answers from what faithful members of the Church believe. They may differ slightly from each other - we do believe in personal revelation - but, even in those cases, you will get a wide spectrum of faithful LDS viewpoints and not too much of the misrepresentations and misinterpretations and misunderstandings. When those things come up here on lds.net someone is always ready to challenge it and correct it as necessary.

[marcostolto]

the scripture at 1 Nephi 13:5 applies to the Roman Catholic church. Mr Bruce Mc Conckie new this. Pres von Stetton knows this..i know it, and there are/were many other Mormon leaders who also know this..there are many Protestant denominations that are in agreement with this viewpoint..i am not...but this viewpoint is not a secret..the Catholic church is well aware that the Vatican has been held to represent the Rome church ..it is not a new topic, nor one over which i would waiste much time..many thanks to everyone

[marcostolto]

since there has been a lot of interest on 1 Nephi 13:5, in a previous thread, have opened a new thread to allow for a more in depth study of the interpretation of this verse.

1 Nephi 13:5 reads :

"And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a 'church which is most abominable above all other churches'"

the question is : who is this church that the prophet Nephi was refering to as the 'most abominable above all other churches'"?

it is clear that Nephi was here making a comparison between a single church/religion and all other churches/religions. he was not saying that all were acceptable, but that all were abominable, but this verse singles out a specific church/religion, as being more abominable, or reprehensible than all the others.

the following exerpt from the article entitled "the great and abominable church", on wikipedia, may shed some light :

"A book entitled Mormon Doctrine, originally published in 1958 by Bruce R. McConkie,

contains references linking the Roman Catholic Church to the Whore of Babylon. McConkie

became an apostle twelve years after its publication, and was a respected

scholar[clarification needed] and authority regarding the doctrines and beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is said that some leaders in the LDS Church at the time urged McConkie not to identify the Roman Catholic Church as such, but the initial publications went out unchanged as McConkie intended.[citation needed] A later edition published in 1966 removed the reference."

many other Christian denominations have agree with this viewpoint. some Protestant denominations have become very vocal on this subject. "the Mother of all a harlots", "Babylon the Great" are all terms that have been applied to the Roman Catholic Church. there is no question that Catholic church was decended from Rome, and that she did form part of the Roman Empire. there is also no question that she was involved in the Inquisition, and stifling of Bible publications, during the Reformation.

what is the correct interpretation of this verse. who is this church, that is most abominable over all others? thank you

Edited September 6, 2012 by marcostolto
grammatical err

[Traveler]

since there has been a lot of interest on 1 Nephi 13:5, in a previous thread, have opened a new thread to allow for a more in depth study of the interpretation of this verse.

1 Nephi 13:5 reads :

"And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a 'church which is most abominable above all other churches'"

the question is : who is this church that the prophet Nephi was refering to as the 'most abominable above all other churches'"?

it is clear that Nephi was here making a comparison between a single church/religion and all other churches/religions. he was not saying that all were acceptable, but that all were abominable, but this verse singles out a specific church/religion, as being more abominable, or reprehensible than all the others.

the following exerpt from the article entitled "the great and abominable church", on wikipedia, may shed some light :

"A book entitled Mormon Doctrine, originally published in 1958 by Bruce R. McConkie,

contains references linking the Roman Catholic Church to the Whore of Babylon. McConkie

became an apostle twelve years after its publication, and was a respected

scholar[clarification needed] and authority regarding the doctrines and beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is said that some leaders in the LDS Church at the time urged McConkie not to identify the Roman Catholic Church as such, but the initial publications went out unchanged as McConkie intended.[citation needed] A later edition published in 1966 removed the reference."

many other Christian denominations have agree with this viewpoint. some Protestant denominations have become very vocal on this subject. "the Mother of all a harlots", "Babylon the Great" are all terms that have been applied to the Roman Catholic Church. there is no question that Catholic church was decended from Rome, and that she did form part of the Roman Empire. there is also no question that she was involved in the Inquisition, and stifling of Bible publications, during the Reformation.

what is the correct interpretation of this verse. who is this church, that is most abominable over all others? thank you

If you think the Roman Catholic Church is the great and abominable church - you are wrong!!! I will prove it with one single counter example. When the Mormons were being forced from Nauvoo - the Roman Catholic Church was the only religious organization to provide funding and make attempts to help the saints.

The Traveler

[skippy740]

I believe Neal A Maxwell gave a great (although indirect) response to this:

A More Determined Discipleship - Ensign Feb. 1979 - ensign

We are now entering a time of incredible ironies. Let us cite but one of these ironies which is yet in its subtle stages: We will see a maximum, if indirect, effort made to establish irreligion as the state religion. It is actually a new form of paganism which uses the carefully preserved and cultivated freedoms of western civilization to shrink freedom, even as it rejects the value essence of our rich Judeo-Christian heritage.

This new irreligious imperialism seeks to disallow certain opinions simply because those opinions grow out of religious convictions. Resistance to abortion will be seen as primitive. Concern over the institution of the family will be viewed as untrendy and unenlightened.

In its mildest form, irreligion will merely be condescending toward those who hold to traditional Judeo-Christian values. In its more harsh forms, as is always the case with those whose dogmatism is blinding, the secular church will do what it can to reduce the influence of those who still worry over standards such as those in the Ten Commandments. It is always such an easy step from dogmatism to unfair play—especially so when the dogmatists believe themselves to be dealing with primitive people who do not know what is best for them—the secular bureaucrats’ burden, you see.

Am I saying that the voting rights of people of religion are in danger? Of course not! Am I saying, “It’s back to the catacombs?” No! But there is occurring a discounting of religiously based opinions. There may even be a covert and subtle disqualification of some for certain offices in some situations, in an ironic irreligious test for office.

It is my opinion that there are many churches that BELONG to the Church of the Lord - those who are on the Lord's side.

But it is also my opinion that there are other "churches" or more accurately "ideological groups" that are working against the Lord, His commandments and His people. These are they that are of the "Church of the Devil".

Just my opinion that happens to fit the nature of the scriptures.

[marcostolto]

i would not exactly describe Atheism as a church, or even a religion, but i have a feeling that we will need to waite for the correct interpretation to 1 Nephi 13:5 to still be revealed in the future. this is not unreasonable. much of the interpretation to verses in the Bible book of Revelation, were not known till recently, and others no doubt will only be revealed later on.

here is an article on Nauvoo.many thanks for your viewpoints

The Catholic Post : Archive Article - Catholics, Mormons in Nauvoo laying foundation for dialogue

[skalenfehl]

No future interpretations on the subject are needed. Read the book of Revelations. John speaks a lot concerning the subject. Any and all who fight against the Lord and/or Zion/the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth, is Babylon, that great whore that sitteth upon many waters. It's been a little while since I've studied the subject. Nephi and John do not refer to any denomination specifically.

[skalenfehl]

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/48505-who-babylon-great.html#post695074

[Leah]

the scripture at 1 Nephi 13:5 applies to the Roman Catholic church. Mr Bruce Mc Conckie new this. Pres von Stetton knows this..i know it, and there are/were many other Mormon leaders who also know this..there are many Protestant denominations that are in agreement with this viewpoint..i am not...but this viewpoint is not a secret..the Catholic church is well aware that the Vatican has been held to represent the Rome church ..it is not a new topic, nor one over which i would waiste much time..many thanks to everyone

If you already had your mind made up, why bother to ask the question? You were given clear, correct answers here.

It doesn't matter what Protestants think. They CANNOT determine LDS scriptures mean. (and chances are they would be very wrong if they tried).

You do not "know" that this scripture applies to the Catholic church. You simply have an opinion pre-established and are now looking for validation for your opinion and refuse to listen when you are told that you are wrong. How do you expect to learn anything with a closed mind?

[marcostolto]

very interesting, so Nephi lived around 600BC,when neither the Catholic church or any other Christian denomination existed.. i would guess then that the appearance of this "most abominable church over all the others" that he spoke about, would have been a reference to events that would happen not long after his time. who then was the "man" spoken of in 1 Nephi 13:12? was this Joseph Smith? and what was the time period. was it 1823? 1 Nephi 13:20 speaks of a "book that was carried forth among them[Gentiles]." i am assuming that this is a reference to the publication of the Book of Mormon in 1830?

[Windseeker]

I read thru this and perhaps it will be helpful in your understanding of this scripture.

The Great and Abominable Church — 1 Nephi 13-14

The conclusion of this seems to support what Anatess was trying to get across to you. I also agree with it.

Individual orientation to the Church of the Lamb or to the great and abominable church is not only by membership but by loyalty. Just as there are those on the records of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who belong to the great and abominable church by virtue of their loyalty to Satan and his life-style (2 Nephi 10:16), so there are members of other churches who will eventually belong to the Lamb by virtue of their loyalty to him and to his life-style, which will lead to their accepting the saving ordinances. The distinction is based on who has your heart, not on who has your records

[marcostolto]

ok..so both of my threads on the subject of 1 Nephi 13:5 under the Non-Catholic Religions section, at forums.catholic.com, have been banned for unknown reasons. i am assuming that someone from lds.net has lodged a complaint, so i am terminating my discussions on 1 Nephi 13:5 on lds.net, and this will be my last post on this subject. if anyone would like to contact the forum.catholic.com moderators in order to establish the reason for the ban, they are welcome..i will take up the discussion when the topic has been re-opened..thank you

[marcostolto]

ok..so both of my threads on the subject of "Babylon the Great" and 1 Nephi 13:5 under the Non-Catholic Religions section, at forums.catholic.com, have been banned for unknown reasons. i am assuming that someone from lds.net has lodged a complaint, so i am terminating my discussions on 1 Nephi 13:5 on lds.net, and this will be my last post on this subject. if anyone would like to contact the forum.catholic.com moderators in order to establish the reason for the ban, they are welcome..i will take up the discussion when the topic has been re-opened..thank you

[Guest]

This site has no relation to forum.catholic.com. If you have issues with their moderation, please take it up with them.

[Guest]

I decided to merge the threads as they cover the same topic.

[Guest]

ok..so both of my threads on the subject of 1 Nephi 13:5 under the Non-Catholic Religions section, at forums.catholic.com, have been banned for unknown reasons. i am assuming that someone from lds.net has lodged a complaint, so i am terminating my discussions on 1 Nephi 13:5 on lds.net, and this will be my last post on this subject. if anyone would like to contact the forum.catholic.com moderators in order to establish the reason for the ban, they are welcome..i will take up the discussion when the topic has been re-opened..thank you

No. Catholic Answers Forum bans anything that hints at non-Catholics proselyting on the forum. They don't close threads just because somebody lodges a complaint. They review the complaint for its merit before they close it.

And yes... Catholic Answers is a completely separate forum with no relation at all whatsoever with LDS.net.

Some members here have accounts there hence we sometimes get news of what's going on there. But, the active LDS members in Catholic Answers have no accounts here that I know of. Therefore, it is very highly unlikely that LDS.net members even care enough to lodge a complaint.

[marcostolto]

this thread has degenerated into a circular discussion..ought to be closed..ime concluding my participation. thank you to all those who have voiced opinions..

[Sicily510]

Rev 17:5 mentions "Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots", and Rev 18:4 says "come out of her (Babylon the Great), my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues". how do Mormons interpret this scripture. Is this a reference exclusively to the Roman Catholic Church or to all other Christian religions, or is it a reference to non-Christians, or to all other religions ?

When I read of Rev 17:5 " And upon her forehead was a name written, (a)MYSTERY, (b)BABYLON THE GREAT, THE ©MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.", this verse has footnotes a,b, and c. (If you are reading a Joseph Smith Translated version of the King James Bible.)

Footnote (a) is Mystery: when you read the footnote it's referencing to the Topical Guide Secret Combinations. If you would like more basic information of what we believe secret combinations consists of you may read this link:TG Secret Combinations, however, I would like to share a quote:

Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915–85) of the

Quorum of the Twelve Apostles defined the great

and abominable church: “The titles church of the

devil and great and abominable church are used to

identify all . . . organizations of whatever name or

nature—whether political, philosophical, educational,

economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which

are designed to take men on a course that leads away

from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the

kingdom of God” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. [1966],

137–38).

Footnote (b) is Babylon: TG Babylon, basically Babylon is the influence of wickedness, I think of people who don't believe in God, peace, it's not necessarily a society with moral conduct/structure but a band or group of people with personal agenda's that is not united in God yet used with physical coercion.

Footnote © is Mother: D&C 88:94 "And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That (a)great (b)church, the ©mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her (d)fornication, that (e)persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood-behold she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea-behold, she is the (f)tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it."

There is 6 footnotes which are:

Footnote (a):1 Ne. 13:6(4-9)

Footnote (b):TG Devil, Church of.

Footnote ©: Rev. 17:5 (5-15)

Footnote (d): Rev.14:8

Footnote (e): TG Hate; Persecution

Footnote (f): Matthew 13:38;D&C 64:24(23-24);D&C 101:24(23-25). TG Earth, Cleansing of.

As I read this excerpt it becomes clear to me that we are living in Babylon and the mother of the abominable church it's everywhere in organizations, politics, society. We must be able to physically discern away from the ways of sodom and gammorah, greed, hate, malice, violence, warfare, stealing and keep our eyes single to the glory of God. By doing so we are remembering our individual covenants we make with Heavenly Father and choosing to follow the light of Jesus Christ in what we do and how we live. Anything pertaining contrary to natures or creed of Jesus Christ is of the devils way and leads people to become spiritually enslaved by the adversary until they die as unbelievers.

[Gargantuan]

Thanks for taking the time to write the post. It was a good explanation. Gar

[AnthonyB]

Song about "Babylon" (from a TC named Steve Taylor), captures well the theme that Babylon isn't a particular human organization or church but the system that entices men away from following the call of heaven....

Infidels

In a broken time

Our fathers bled the ground

Chained and bound

Castaway

Should the remnant die?

My hopes were growing numb

Overcome

She bewitched

With a Siren's cry

She beckoned, "Come and learn"

Is there no return?

CHORUS

Babylon

Born in your walls

Bred in your will

Captive until

I heard the heavens cry

Babylon

This is goodbye

Aftershocks

And the sorrow grows

Some make their slow descent

Some repent

Rescue me

These idols lie

I cannot bear the shame

Make this desert rain

(CHORUS)

Make this desert rain...

(CHORUS)

[marcostolto]

all i can say is that i will never forget the LDS's, and will always keep the Book of Mormon by my side, i will also continue to pray and hope that both the LDS and Catholic churches will draw closer together, rather than further apart, and that someday all Christians will recognise the Book of Mormon as Gods Word.thank you

Edited September 7, 2012 by marcostolto
grammar errors

[Zosime]

I think ths could also be t muslim faith not catholic and the way the muslim faith is spreading and thegoal is to make everyone in all lnds practice or believe in their muslim faith it seems clear what the battle will be just sayin