Stop treating them like monsters.

[MorningStar]

Here is the quote from the article. "When he was 12, he developed a crush on his best friend. The two would sleep with their arms wrapped around each other, and although nothing sexual happened, Spencer adored their intimacy."

Not arms draping because there's a lack of space. Arms wrapped around each other.

[Guest]

12-year-old boys in our culture do not snuggle with each other. There might be accidental touching if they're having a sleepover or campout, but they do not wrap their arms around each other and go to sleep unless there is something weird going on.

My son is 11 - he still, on occassion, comes to our bed at 2AM, wraps his arms around me or his dad and sleeps the rest of the night that way. My other son does the same. They've been doing it since they were babies. Granted, he doesn't do it with his friends because when they do sleep-overs they all sleep in separate cots in the game room or just pass out on the sectional couch.

My point is - I don't think wrapping your arms around somebody at that age automatically denotes anything sexual. It can, of course. But, if I see my son do it, I won't immediately jump to that conclusion.

Edited September 26, 2012 by anatess

[Guest]

I didn't realize that being born American makes you a different kind of human.

So what you're saying is culture shouldn't matter. . . Why did you bring up how things are in the Philippines? Again?

[Guest]

So what you're saying is culture shouldn't matter. . . Why did you bring up how things are in the Philippines? Again?

I didn't say culture didn't matter. What I'm saying is - the situation is normal in a human's development.

I brought up the Philippines because - you don't usually see cousins bunched up on the floor in one room of grandma's house in America. They're too "privileged" for that. Each kid usually have cots or air mattresses or sleeping bags or separate rooms. Or they go to hotels because grandma doesn't want that many grandkids afoot.

Edited September 26, 2012 by anatess

[MorningStar]

My son is 11 - he still, on occassion, comes to our bed at 2AM, wraps his arms around me or his dad and sleeps the rest of the night that way. My other son does the same. They've been doing it since they were babies. Granted, he doesn't do it with his friends because when they do sleep-overs they all sleep in separate cots in the game room or just pass out on the sectional couch.

My point is - I don't think wrapping your arms around somebody at that age automatically denotes anything sexual. It can, of course. But, if I see my son do it, I won't immediately jump to that conclusion.

There's nothing sexual about a child cuddling with parents. It's abnormal to do with a peer at that age. In the article, the guy specifically stated that he had a crush on his friend. All the more reason not to cuddle. A 12-year-old girl and 12-year-old boy cuddling and going to sleep together would also be strongly discouraged.

[Guest]

I most definitely grew up with lots of cousins sacked out on Grandma's or Aunt's floor, and never stayed in a hotel until I was going with another family as a babysitter. I don't recall ever cuddling with anyone, relation or not. I guess I didn't have a normal human developmental childhood.

[pam]

I didn't say culture didn't matter. What I'm saying is - the situation is normal in a human's development.

I brought up the Philippines because - you don't usually see cousins bunched up on the floor in one room of grandma's house in America. They're too "privileged" for that. Each kid usually have cots or air mattresses or sleeping bags or separate rooms. Or they go to hotels because grandma doesn't want that many grandkids afoot.

Yep my kids were underprivileged. The poor things.

[pam]

I think the thing is..cuddling or snuggling with your mom or dad is not the same thing as cuddling or snuggling with another boy of the same age.

[Guest]

I most definitely grew up with lots of cousins sacked out on Grandma's or Aunt's floor, and never stayed in a hotel until I was going with another family as a babysitter. I don't recall ever cuddling with anyone, relation or not. I guess I didn't have a normal human developmental childhood.

Sigh.

Follow this logic:

Anatess: Fish swim upstream. Completely normal.

Eowyn: Nope. In my neck of the woods, fish swim downstream. I guess my fish must be abnormal.

Get it? Just because it didn't happen in your house doesn't mean it is abnormal behavior. You fish and my fish are both normal.

[Guest]

I think the thing is..cuddling or snuggling with your mom or dad is not the same thing as cuddling or snuggling with another boy of the same age.

I don't see the difference. The snuggling is not because we're family. The snuggling is merely for comfort.

Americans, of course, assign sexual connotations to snuggling. Sexual heightened society and everything. So, in America, 12 year old children are taught not to snuggle to other 12 year old boys... hence, it becomes abnormal for a kid to not follow that instruction.

[Guest]

"Follow this logic"? Rude.

Here's some logic. Different places do things differently. Randomly bringing up how Filipino children behave is not evidence of normal development. It's normal Filipino development. It's Random Filipino Facts by anatess.

[pam]

I don't see the difference. The snuggling is not because we're family. The snuggling is merely for comfort.

Americans, of course, assign sexual connotations to snuggling. Sexual heightened society and everything. So, in America, 12 year old children are taught not to snuggle to other 12 year old boys... hence, it becomes abnormal for a kid to not follow that instruction.

And there we go back to cultural difference again.

[MorningStar]

I don't see the difference. The snuggling is not because we're family. The snuggling is merely for comfort.

Americans, of course, assign sexual connotations to snuggling. Sexual heightened society and everything. So, in America, 12 year old children are taught not to snuggle to other 12 year old boys... hence, it becomes abnormal for a kid to not follow that instruction.

In this specific example, the boy had a crush on his best friend. There was something abnormal going on. They were not cuddling in "normal boy fashion". That is not the norm in this guy's culture.

I give my husband quick kisses on the lips (when people are looking). I give my kids and my parents quick kisses on the lips too, which is clearly not sexual. If I were to kiss my bishop on the lips, it would probably be frowned upon even though not all of my kisses mean sexual attraction. In some cultures, it's OK to give everyone a quick kiss.

In our culture, when older peers cuddle together, it means something more than friendship. 12-year-old boys do not cuddle with each other for comfort.

[Guest]

"Follow this logic"? Rude.

Here's some logic. Different places do things differently. Randomly bringing up how Filipino children behave is not evidence of normal development. It's normal Filipino development. It's Random Filipino Facts by anatess.

I did not mean to be rude!

Okay, obviously we're going nowhere. And it is because everytime I mention my Filipino upbringing you take some kind of offense. Like it is not a valid comment because... what, this is an American forum and Filipino perspectives are not welcome?

How Filipino children behave means it is within the realms of human behavior. Filipinos follow the same human development cycles as Americans. There are behaviors that are more obvious in Philippine culture than American culture because - the culture itself do not attempt to suppress it.

Before homosexuality became popular, it is completely normal for 2 women or 2 men to hold hands and kiss on the cheek in greeting. It is but part of man's social nature. When homosexuality became popular, you have to suppress that behavior because you could be labeled gay or lesbian. Well, in the Philippines, you still see 2 men or 2 women holding hands and kissing on the cheek in greeting. Completely normal. Therefore, holding hands or kissing on the cheek is not abnormal - it is the sexual connotation that observers put into it that makes it so.

And obviously, 12 year olds do not have the same sexual awareness as their adult observers. Therefore, 12-year-olds snuggling is only abnormal because the adults in the society says it is.

In the story of Spencer - there are 2 12-year-olds snuggling. Spencer - the one with the "minor attraction" and his best friend - who we are to assume is a completely normal person. So, what is your take on the best friend? He must be a pedophile as well?

Edited September 26, 2012 by anatess

[Guest]

Actually, it's not because I think there's any feeling of American superiority, it's because I read an air of superiority when you mention your country. It's like, "What? That's wrong! This is the Filipino way, which is clearly better, because Americans are so privileged/stifled/standoffish/spoiled/whatever." That's my issue. And right now I need to walk away from it.

[Guest]

Actually, it's not because I think there's any feeling of American superiority, it's because I read an air of superiority when you mention your country. It's like, "What? That's wrong! This is the Filipino way, which is clearly better, because Americans are so privileged/stifled/standoffish/spoiled/whatever." That's my issue. And right now I need to walk away from it.

And of course that is just your perception on the matter because obviously, I live in America. If I think Filipinos were so superior I would be in the Philippines married to a Filipino raising a Filipino family.

Now, refer back to my post where I mentioned snuggling in grandma's house. Where in that post does it even signify that Filipinos are more superior?

Edited September 26, 2012 by anatess

[MorningStar]

I did not mean to be rude!

And obviously, 12 year olds do not have the same sexual awareness as their adult observers. Therefore, 12-year-olds snuggling is only abnormal because the adults in the society says it is.

In the story of Spencer - there are 2 12-year-olds snuggling. Spencer - the one with the "minor attraction" and his best friend - who we are to assume is a completely normal person. So, what is your take on the best friend? He must be a pedophile as well?

My take is that they both have same sex attraction. If I had cuddled with a boy at that age, it would have been because I was attracted to him, not because I wanted comfort.

On a somewhat related note to this thread, I was looking at old pictures of my husband one day and saw one of when he was a teenager. I didn't know him when we were teenagers and when I told him he looked really good, I said, "Wait - does that make me a pervert?"

[Guest]

My take is that they both have same sex attraction. If I had cuddled with a boy at that age, it would have been because I was attracted to him, not because I wanted comfort.

On a somewhat related note to this thread, I was looking at old pictures of my husband one day and saw one of when he was a teenager. I didn't know him when we were teenagers and when I told him he looked really good, I said, "Wait - does that make me a pervert?"

I was already 20 - graduating from college - when a bunch of us went on a graduation celebration at a beach house. I snuggled with one of my best friends on a narrow ledge and talked until morning. He's a guy. He was on his way to be a Catholic priest and we bared our souls about our fears for our futures. A bunch of girls snuggled together on the sandy floor talking and giggling until morning. And then, of course, there was a couple who was boyfriend and girlfriend - they couldn't snuggle together. We would have teased them to kingdom come if they did.

And yes, you're a pervert oggling a teen-ager.

[Echo2002]

But therein lies the problem. As a society we've spent the last three decades convincing ourselves at a person with a socially unacceptable sexual predisposition, nevertheless has a natural right to enjoy an intimate relationship in fulfillment of that predisposition. Those of us who asked how pedophiles fit into that paradigm, were shouted down and accused of slandering gays as child rapists.

I agree. I don't know that the inclination towards homosexuality is any different than that towards pedophilia, meaning it's caused by some type of abnormality in the brain or a chemical imbalance. Although I think in some pedophilia cases it's more about control than sexual pleasure.

I think those who are struggling with pedophilia do need someone who understands them and doesn't automatically brand them as a monster.

[MorningStar]

It's that whole "When Harry Met Sally" thing. You might have been thinking, "I'm snuggling with my friend! Yaaaaaaay!" and he's thinking, "Do I really want to be a priest?!"

[applepansy]

I don't see the difference. The snuggling is not because we're family. The snuggling is merely for comfort.

Americans, of course, assign sexual connotations to snuggling. Sexual heightened society and everything. So, in America, 12 year old children are taught not to snuggle to other 12 year old boys... hence, it becomes abnormal for a kid to not follow that instruction.

12 years olds have been taught to keep a distance because the laws changed and a 12 yo just accused of something inappropriate with a toddler will be charged with a sexual crime as an adult. (Personal knowledge that I'm not emotionally up to sharing this week.)

I'm another one who growing up found myself in the middle of the floor with all the cousins. I was the oldest. Arms flung all over, legs too. Nobody was snuggling in each other's arms.

Today anyone in that pile of kids, who was 12 or older could be charged under the laws of today.

[applepansy]

I did not mean to be rude!

Okay, obviously we're going nowhere. And it is because everytime I mention my Filipino upbringing you take some kind of offense. Like it is not a valid comment because... what, this is an American forum and Filipino perspectives are not welcome?

Anatess, with all due respect, the reason some of us take offense every time you bring up Filipino culture is because in the same sentence, paragraph, or post you also put down American culture. Often your words place Filipino culture as preferable to American. Often your words tell us that we couldn't possible have the same experiences as you did because we are American. Yet in the next breath you say we're all human.

That's why.

Your own arguments answer the validity question.

[Wingnut]

I was already 20 - graduating from college - when a bunch of us went on a graduation celebration at a beach house. I snuggled with one of my best friends on a narrow ledge and talked until morning. He's a guy. He was on his way to be a Catholic priest and we bared our souls about our fears for our futures. A bunch of girls snuggled together on the sandy floor talking and giggling until morning. And then, of course, there was a couple who was boyfriend and girlfriend - they couldn't snuggle together. We would have teased them to kingdom come if they did.

And yes, you're a pervert oggling a teen-ager.

Okay, this post sheds a little light for me. Perhaps we all have different definitions/interpretations of what "snuggling/cuddling" is.

A bunch of 20-year-old girls "snuggled" together on a sandy floor talking and giggling until morning probably aren't spooning with each other, or pressed body-to-body. That's what was implied in the article. Laying your head on your friend's shoulder while you bare your souls to each other isn't cuddling. It's a simpler form of affection.

And while we're at it, let's look at this:

Never do anything that could lead to sexual transgression. Treat others with respect, not as objects used to satisfy lustful and selfish desires. Before marriage, do not participate in passionate kissing, lie on top of another person, or touch the private, sacred parts of another person’s body, with or without clothing. Do not do anything else that arouses sexual feelings.

...

Avoid situations that invite increased temptation, such as late-night or overnight activities away from home or activities where there is a lack of adult supervision.

(emphasis mine)

[Backroads]

Well, this thread is in a completely different spot than from when I left it.

[MarginOfError]

Well, this thread is in a completely different spot than from when I left it.

I know! Who are we supposed to not be treating like monsters? Minor attracted children, or filipinos, or americans? I'm so confused now!