Forgiveness and the teaching, "Men can change"

[Vort]

Scattered, poorly organized thoughts after today's excellent (as always, but perhaps more than usual) Priesthood Session:

President Monson's talk revolved around the idea that men can change. "A leopard can't change his spots." "No, but I don't work with leopards. I work with men, and men change every day." So how do you forgive those who take pleasure in offending you, who rejoice in profaning things you find sacred?

We must forgive. We must. How? When men who should be your brothers prove to be wolves in sheep's clothing, how do you forgive them? Because you must. We teach our children to sing, "I am a child of God"; but in the fuller sense of being a child of God, as the Savior taught, we achieve that only by doing what the Lord has commanded, including extending forgiveness to all.

Now, Jesus taught that to follow him meant to be rejected by the world. Anyone who expects to achieve popularity as a Latter-day Saint does not understand that taking up one's cross means giving up most hopes and aspirations of worldly glory. We should (hopefully) be comfortable with this.

But it is one thing to be persecuted by Babylon, and quite another to be persecuted by those who know the Church well, and especially by those who call (or who once called) themselves Saints. How do you, personally, forgive and love those who have betrayed their covenants to be a brother to you -- who claim the title of Latter-day Saint even while they mock and disparage the prophets and those who follow them?

Men can change. They change every day. Thank God for that, because without that, we all would be lost. So how do you keep in mind the view of the traitor and hateful or disloyal current or former Church member as someone who could be wonderful, admirable, even someone you would want to pattern yourself after?

[MorningStar]

I have seen some pretty troubled people come back. It's hard to know what they are going through and what drives them to act the way they do, but we can love them.

I don't know if you remember the guy who used to be in our ward and was inactive. Long story, but because of the coincidence of him ending up in our ward after my husband knew him as a kid and some other weird circumstances, I knew we were supposed to help him, but it was unbearable at times. He said some very nasty things and he was always the one who initiated such conversations. We were happy not to talk about church at all, but he had to ruin perfectly good evenings by pushing it. I would seriously get on my knees and pray before he came over and I told Heavenly Father if it weren't for all the things pointing towards the obvious, I wouldn't want this guy in my house again. Slowly I learned how to deal with him. Rather than engage him in conversation, I would just smile and nod.

One day he wanted to visit with us and we were having our ward picnic. We said he could come along if he wanted and he said sure. So we're sitting at a table having a nice chat when he sees our friend from Africa. He says, "Hey, what do you think that guy thinks of the priesthood ban?" Without missing a beat, I said, "I don't know, let's ask him."

I then yelled, "HEY, ________!" The brother walked towards our table and our friend started to panic. He said, "No no no! I was just kidding!" I said, "Oh, so you don't want to know what he thinks of the priesthood ban?" "No!" He got to our table and I smiled, "Hey, ________! I would like you to meet our friend _________."

I enjoyed watching him sweat.

As we found out, he had left the church soon after his mission. His dad confessed to him that he had sexually abused his sister for 10 years. He was all kinds of messed up from that situation. He didn't trust anyone anymore including himself. How could something so horrible happen right under his nose without him knowing it? How could everyone think his dad was such a great guy? How could his dad have had a stake calling while doing something so evil?

He became fixated on all sorts of bad things that LDS people do and complained that most Mormons don't talk to him more than once. I think without realizing it, he wanted to drive people away because it kept him safe from more hurt. We weren't going to let him claim that yet another Mormon family wouldn't talk to him. He moved and we lost touch since then, but we have very high hopes that somehow he moved past his bitterness.

We know how to contact him, but he's a toxic person and I felt like we could be done until he comes into our lives again. He also left on a good note and I wanted to keep it that way. I do believe he can heal and come back. Other people he meets don't know his background and must find him so disgusting, but he does have his sweet side.

[NeuroTypical]

So how do you keep in mind the view of the traitor and hateful or disloyal current or former Church member as someone who could be wonderful, admirable, even someone you would want to pattern yourself after?

I think that talk was where we heard the story shared, of the missionary who figured out how to do it. Whenever he was talking to someone, even if they had a cigar in their hand and were filthy of body and mouth, he'd try to picture them dressed in white, being led into the waters of baptism.

Other things that work for me or my wife:

* Attempting to see someone through their own eyes, or the eyes of their mother.

* Reminding yourself of your own sins or sinful past, and keeping the golden rule in mind.

* Thinking charitably about the people or circumstances who helped make this person that way.

* Reminding yourself that people who don't forgive, bear a greater weight of sin than the person who is doing the bad thing.

* Reading Paul's exhortation on Charity, along with that special part about how it doesn't matter who you are or how wonderful your works, if you don't have it, then God doesn't think much of you.

[rayhale]

One other phrase that gets me is, “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks.” That may be true with dogs, but the last time I checked, I’m not a dog, or any other person I know.

[skippy740]

I wish Elder D. Todd Christofferson would give his exact same talk to the Relief Society regarding the emasculation of men.

I'm really enjoying the talks he prepares.

[Misshalfway]

I wish Elder D. Todd Christofferson would give his exact same talk to the Relief Society regarding the emasculation of men.

I'm really enjoying the talks he prepares.

I'm really intrigued by this comment, Skip. Would you mind elaborating on what you mean....what you wish the RS would know?

Thanks.

[applepansy]

I'm really intrigued by this comment, Skip. Would you mind elaborating on what you mean....what you wish the RS would know?

Thanks.

I'm curious too.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think that talk was where we heard the story shared, of the missionary who figured out how to do it. Whenever he was talking to someone, even if they had a cigar in their hand and were filthy of body and mouth, he'd try to picture them dressed in white, being led into the waters of baptism.

Other things that work for me or my wife:

* Attempting to see someone through their own eyes, or the eyes of their mother.

* Reminding yourself of your own sins or sinful past, and keeping the golden rule in mind.

* Thinking charitably about the people or circumstances who helped make this person that way.

* Reminding yourself that people who don't forgive, bear a greater weight of sin than the person who is doing the bad thing.

* Reading Paul's exhortation on Charity, along with that special part about how it doesn't matter who you are or how wonderful your works, if you don't have it, then God doesn't think much of you.

Thanks for you comments, I agree. My husband talked to me about those talks. To add to your list there, I think it is important to remember that everyone here passed the first estate test. The "change" is really a change back to the way the person was. It is more of a returning to their previous state and not changing into something they are not. The current state is the one that isn't really us. The previous state, while in the presence of God, is who we really are. I think remembering that as well helps us remember our true status, a child of God, and with that potential. We should be looking at everyone with the designation of "future God".

My husband can't remember who said it but he thinks it was President Eyring who said something of the sort of 'every man has the potential to be like God'. So, we don't go into this life, if that is true, with any ceiling over our head. Since we do not have the power to lay judgement on an individual as to their eternal status we have to treat everyone with that continued possibility that they may some day be like God. He added that sometimes treating a person as if they have that potential is what allows them to be that way. My husband said that was the theme of Eyring's talk about making some growth charts for his sons with images of who they could become even though they weren't that way to begin with.

[Vort]

I'm really intrigued by this comment, Skip. Would you mind elaborating on what you mean....what you wish the RS would know?

Thanks.

Speaking for myself, not skippy:

Society takes delight in emasculating men. Sisters in the Church should never emulate such behavior. But sometimes some of them do. It might be nice for the sisters to be formally instructed that their Church brothers are men of God, worthy of respect, and should always be treated as such, even when they may not appear to be quite living up to that role.

[Misshalfway]

I think that talk was where we heard the story shared, of the missionary who figured out how to do it. Whenever he was talking to someone, even if they had a cigar in their hand and were filthy of body and mouth, he'd try to picture them dressed in white, being led into the waters of baptism.

Other things that work for me or my wife:

* Attempting to see someone through their own eyes, or the eyes of their mother.

* Reminding yourself of your own sins or sinful past, and keeping the golden rule in mind.

* Thinking charitably about the people or circumstances who helped make this person that way.

* Reminding yourself that people who don't forgive, bear a greater weight of sin than the person who is doing the bad thing.

* Reading Paul's exhortation on Charity, along with that special part about how it doesn't matter who you are or how wonderful your works, if you don't have it, then God doesn't think much of you.

At the end of the day, it really is about loving people for who they are and to stop judging.

If we have to picture someone "in white clothes walking into the waters of baptism" I'm not sure that's any different than judging them and I'm not sure it's any closer to charity. It's loving them as we wish they were....as something that makes us more comfortable.

We are all in process. I think God is trying to teach us how to love each other no matter where we all are at in that process.

[Misshalfway]

Speaking for myself, not skippy:

Society takes delight in emasculating men. Sisters in the Church should never emulate such behavior. But sometimes some of them do. It might be nice for the sisters to be formally instructed that their Church brothers are men of God, worthy of respect, and should always be treated as such, even when they may not appear to be quite living up to that role.

Of course. Respect. Yes. But help me here. I see emasculating men as a more specific example of disrespect. I guess I'm trying to understand exactly what behaviors RS might be doing (either knowingly or unknowingly) that may emasculate. When the men aren't being great....is it the disapproval that emasculates? Help me understand.

[MorningStar]

I'm curious too. I listened to the talk and he spoke about men failing more in school, dropping out, etc. Are we coddling our boys too much? Do we expect too little? What is the cause?

[trubludru]

I wish Elder D. Todd Christofferson would give his exact same talk to the Relief Society regarding the emasculation of men.

I'm really enjoying the talks he prepares.

Not speaking for Skippy either, but my take. Elder Christofferson's talk focused on how society in general seems to show little or no respect for men or their potential these days. If I recall correctly gave examples such as tv sitcoms where the vast majority of men portrayed as bumbling idiots. And in education men are now being outperformed in almost every area at every level from elementary to college. Women are outperforming men in SATs, ACTs, and are getting more undergraduate and graduate college degrees.

(This isn't to say it is bad women are doing well.) But society seems to be creating a situation where men and their strengths are not very highly valued and they are receiving too many messages that they won't amount to anything, can't handle responsibilities and are unnecessary in many regards and are just plain not good enough. So they don't amount to much and avoid responsibility, and end up drifting aimlessly through life not making important commitments or fulfilling their roles and responsibilites as Priesthood holders and men.

Elder Christofferson sort of finished up with the idea to remember that men have divine potential as sons of God and that they have many good qualities. He gave encouragement and admonition for young men to do well in education and develop skills that will allow them to become proficient and successful in contributing to society. And that we should be encouraging men to meet their potential as brethren in Priesthood quorums, as church leaders and especially as parents and family, and not give up on those men that have suffered set backs.

I sort of take it as men could use some more lifting up and positive encouragement rather then just being told they don't measure up, aren't doing good enough or that since that they failed at _____ (important thing) that they are a failure. I want to get on my soapbox as an educationally and professionally successful, active and temple recommend holding man and pontificate about the examples and problems I've observed in my own life, but I won't. There is at least a summary of the talk at the LDS church news web site.

Edited October 8, 2012 by trubludru

[Windseeker]

Here are some (imperfect) quotes from the talk

In many societies today men get conflicting and demeaning signals about their roles and value in society. Some men take the negative signals as an excuse to avoid responsibility and never really grow up.

We cannot afford to have boys and men who are drifting, who lack self-discipline and live only to be entertained, we cannot afford young adult men who are going nowhere in life who are not serious about forming families and making a real contribution in this world. We cannot afford husbands and fathers who fail to provide spiritual leadership in the home. We cannot afford to have those who exercise the Holy Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God, waste their strength in pornography or spend their lives in cyberspace ironically being 'Of' the world while not 'In' the world.

Allot has been said of the attack on women, treating them as objects. I've seen a recent national campaign by Dove to show natural standards of beauty rather then the distorted view shown by media. But attacks on men are never answered it seems. No one speaks about how horribly Men and Fathers are shown in Entertainment. Look at Family Guy, Simpsons and other shows. Men and boys are shown as selfish idiots and women are shown as smart and grounded.

I think a reason it was suggested that the message would be good for the RS women is that they are the mothers. It's important that they set the right expectations for their boys and ensure they are sending the right messages. Both mothers and fathers have a role in shaping mens lives.

[NeuroTypical]

At the end of the day, it really is about loving people for who they are and to stop judging.

I am not really arguing, but that way of summing things up doesn't really help me the most. The commandment is to love thy neighbor, not love them for who they are. It seems maybe a fine point, if 'who they are' is a son or daughter of God with a divine birthright and potential. And of course we're commanded to judge in certain ways and on certain occasions.

If we have to picture someone "in white clothes walking into the waters of baptism" I'm not sure that's any different than judging them and I'm not sure it's any closer to charity. It's loving them as we wish they were....as something that makes us more comfortable.

Vort wasn't asking what we have to do. He was asking for examples of how other folk forgive and love a certain kind of sinner - specifically "those who have betrayed their covenants to be a brother to you -- who claim the title of Latter-day Saint even while they mock and disparage the prophets and those who follow them".

It is interesting to think about forgiveness and charity. You can't forgive someone unless you have something to forgive them for. You can't arrive at that conclusion without making a judgement. So when it comes to forgiveness, you can't act in charity without first passing righteous judgement.

Anyway, some folks are very hard to love, and viewing them as we wish they were, as they can be, as they will be if they attain salvation, often helps me and my wife.

We are all in process. I think God is trying to teach us how to love each other no matter where we all are at in that process.

Amen to that.

[Misshalfway]

Here are some (imperfect) quotes from the talk

Allot has been said of the attack on women, treating them as objects. I've seen a recent national campaign by Dove to show natural standards of beauty rather then the distorted view shown by media. But attacks on men are never answered it seems. No one speaks about how horribly Men and Fathers are shown in Entertainment. Look at Family Guy, Simpsons and other shows. Men and boys are shown as selfish idiots and women are shown as smart and grounded.

I think a reason it was suggested that the message would be good for the RS women is that they are the mothers. It's important that they set the right expectations for their boys and ensure they are sending the right messages. Both mothers and fathers have a role in shaping mens lives.

And what are those "right messages" in your view?

[MorningStar]

Yes, there are some sitcoms that depict men as dopes, but also plenty that depict girls as shallow, ditzy, etc. So why are girls succeeding at a higher level? In real life, I have known some men who were henpecked, yet still successful. They are good providers, have a nice home, great kids, etc. I personally don't see men being treated as dopes in real life, but as I've said before, I was taught as a young woman by other men that they only think about and want one thing. The responsibility was then put on the young women to set boundaries to keep the boys in line. I hated that. We were all members of the church listening to the same talks with the same Holy Ghost. Why couldn't I expect a boy to be a gentleman when he knew better?

I teach my boys that they are responsible for their own actions. No one can make them do anything. I treat them like they are capable of having self-control and I expect it. They are also on a short leash when it comes to video games because that is the one thing I see leading to lack of motivation to do anything in my extended family and with friends. My cousins lost their mom when they were little and were allowed to do a lot more than they should have because my grandma felt sorry for them. One of them especially has a sense of entitlement and blames everything on everyone else. There is no gratitude. My grandma has bailed him out countless times by letting him stay with her or borrow her car and he never helps her with a thing - just plays his video games and even had the nerve to smoke in her car. My dad came down on him hard after that and told him he was not to use her car again. He abused the privilege.

My husband and I have talked a lot about the fact that kids used to have to work hard because life was about survival. If you wanted to eat or stay warm, you did your part. Now kids sit around playing video games, hardly do any chores, and their moms make their lunch for them too. Someone told me recently that one of the biggest problems with missionaries is their inability to use a vacuum cleaner. You gotta be kidding me! All of my kids will leave this house knowing how to cook, clean, and do their laundry.

[Misshalfway]

I am not really arguing, but that way of summing things up doesn't really help me the most. The commandment is to love thy neighbor, not love them for who they are. It seems maybe a fine point, if 'who they are' is a son or daughter of God with a divine birthright and potential. And of course we're commanded to judge in certain ways and on certain occasions.

Yeah. I get what you are saying. Loving others involves a whole spectrum of attributes and actions that hopefully includes the view that we all are children of God.

And I also appreciate that we must cultivate a righteous judgment. I like the word "discernment" as I try to conceptualize what a righteous judgment means. It helps me differentiate righteous evaluations from the lesser "judgy-ness" that humans are so good at.

Vort wasn't asking what we have to do. He was asking for examples of how other folk forgive and love a certain kind of sinner - specifically "those who have betrayed their covenants to be a brother to you -- who claim the title of Latter-day Saint even while they mock and disparage the prophets and those who follow them".

Yes. I know what he was asking for. How do we love the sinner? Especially when he/she appears to be a turn-coat or a hypocrite. And how to we love them when the trespass against us?

It's hard! And I don't disagree that sometimes we need strategies to help us soften our hearts or rise to higher ways of compassion and forgiveness.

Maybe it was just the "getting baptized" imagery that rubbed me the wrong way. I mean, what if the person doesn't choose that? What if their path to Jesus doesn't follow the picture in our minds? Don't we just delay our unrighteous judgments? Makes me wonder if such an idea actually produces charity, considering that charity is partly about long-suffering and tolerance and meekness. I mean, we CAN'T change people. We can't make them prettier or more righteous. We have to learn how to love them as they are in the now. It's one of the things Jesus was trying to teach when he went amongst the lepers. They loved him because his love wasn't deterred by their leprosy. Doesn't mean Jesus didn't see their needs for healing. Just means he sees past what he sees.

It is interesting to think about forgiveness and charity. You can't forgive someone unless you have something to forgive them for. You can't arrive at that conclusion without making a judgement. So when it comes to forgiveness, you can't act in charity without first passing righteous judgement.

I'm not sure I completely agree with this. Sometimes you have to forgive without having clarity on a person and sometimes you have to forgive them for who they aren't.

Anyway, some folks are very hard to love, and viewing them as we wish they were, as they can be, as they will be if they attain salvation, often helps me and my wife.

I appreciate that. I don't mean to take anything away from something that has helped you. I generally respect what you share about your world view and from what you say, I certainly have a fond respect of your wife.

I guess what I really am saying is that I've had the experience of people "loving me this way". It feels a lot like pity. It feels a lot like they can't deal with my "leprosy". And that hurts. Even if I'm one of those who is hard to love some days. What I know is that my heart, in these situations, has longed for a more refined response from my fellow brothers and sisters. One that feels more like Jesus. One that isn't so afraid.

I know. I long for a better world. :) And I know I can't have that yet.

[Windseeker]

And what are those "right messages" in your view?

I think Mothers can set the expectations that their sons be responsible, that they are expected to help around the house, do chores, work hard in school. They should not tolerate disrespect of themselves or others. That they prioritize their Family, School and Church responsibilities. Offer encouragement and praise for doing the right things. Don't give into "Boys will be Boys" excuse and expect that they act like men.

To follow the Knight Code:

To fear God and maintain His Church

To serve the liege lord in valour and faith

To protect the weak and defenceless

To give succour to widows and orphans

To refrain from the wanton giving of offence

To live by honour and for glory

To despise pecuniary reward

To fight for the welfare of all

To obey those placed in authority

To guard the honour of fellow knights

To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit

To keep faith

At all times to speak the truth

To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun

To respect the honour of women

Never to refuse a challenge from an equal

Never to turn the back upon a foe

I like this message also by Elder Christofferson from 2006

Let Us Be Men | Mormon Messages

[Anddenex]

"Forgiveness and the teaching, "Men can change"

Will someone please help convince my wife of this.

[Vort]

Of course. Respect. Yes. But help me here. I see emasculating men as a more specific example of disrespect. I guess I'm trying to understand exactly what behaviors RS might be doing (either knowingly or unknowingly) that may emasculate. When the men aren't being great....is it the disapproval that emasculates? Help me understand.

I don't see it very much in my current ward, which I recognize is an exceptional ward. I have seen it often enough in the past:

• Young women leaders scolding the young men for not being (in their opinion) sufficiently prepared for an activity.
• Young women acting in an unkind, derisive or mocking manner toward less mature or elegant or polished young men.
• Women making openly disparaging comments about their husbands in Relief Society (this one used to set off Sister Vort).
• Single sisters finding fault with and/or taking offense at younger (and often not-so-younger) adult brethren trying to fulfill their callings as best they can.
• Snarky comments about visiting teaching numbers being so much higher than home teaching numbers.

I am perfectly aware that all these things are done by men toward themselves. I abhor that mentality. But I almost never see men doing such things toward the sisters.

Maybe I am wrong. But having been in situations where LDS women disparage men, I think it would be nice for the leaders (including the male leaders) to speak as directly to the sisters about unkind and damaging behavior as they often do to the brethren.

[Leah]

I think Mothers can set the expectations that their sons be responsible, that they are expected to help around the house, do chores, work hard in school. They should not tolerate disrespect of themselves or others. That they prioritize their Family, School and Church responsibilities. Offer encouragement and praise for doing the right things. Don't give into "Boys will be Boys" excuse and expect that they act like men.To follow the Knight Code:

I like this message also by Elder Christofferson from 2006

Let Us Be Men | Mormon Messages

Can we expect that from the fathers and other men, as well?

Granted, I was only baptized a year ago, so much of my experience with men has been with men not of the church, but...even in my time in the church, I find men making excuses...."Men are visual, we can't help it"..."That's just the way men are"...and on and on.

[Windseeker]

Can we expect that from the fathers and other men, as well?

Granted, I was only baptized a year ago, so much of my experience with men has been with men not of the church, but...even in my time in the church, I find men making excuses...."Men are visual, we can't help it"..."That's just the way men are"...and on and on.

Keep in mind Leah that this talk WAS to boys and their fathers given in a Priesthood session of conference. I'm just responding to why it might be a good message for Sisters to hear as well.

[Misshalfway]

Yes, there are some sitcoms that depict men as dopes, but also plenty that depict girls as shallow, ditzy, etc. So why are girls succeeding at a higher level? In real life, I have known some men who were henpecked, yet still successful. They are good providers, have a nice home, great kids, etc. I personally don't see men being treated as dopes in real life, but as I've said before, I was taught as a young woman by other men that they only think about and want one thing. The responsibility was then put on the young women to set boundaries to keep the boys in line. I hated that. We were all members of the church listening to the same talks with the same Holy Ghost. Why couldn't I expect a boy to be a gentleman when he knew better?

I teach my boys that they are responsible for their own actions. No one can make them do anything. I treat them like they are capable of having self-control and I expect it. They are also on a short leash when it comes to video games because that is the one thing I see leading to lack of motivation to do anything in my extended family and with friends. My cousins lost their mom when they were little and were allowed to do a lot more than they should have because my grandma felt sorry for them. One of them especially has a sense of entitlement and blames everything on everyone else. There is no gratitude. My grandma has bailed him out countless times by letting him stay with her or borrow her car and he never helps her with a thing - just plays his video games and even had the nerve to smoke in her car. My dad came down on him hard after that and told him he was not to use her car again. He abused the privilege.

My husband and I have talked a lot about the fact that kids used to have to work hard because life was about survival. If you wanted to eat or stay warm, you did your part. Now kids sit around playing video games, hardly do any chores, and their moms make their lunch for them too. Someone told me recently that one of the biggest problems with missionaries is their inability to use a vacuum cleaner. You gotta be kidding me! All of my kids will leave this house knowing how to cook, clean, and do their laundry.

I read this and wanted to comment "amen" all over the place. :)

I think your first paragraph about girls keeping the boys in line hits home for me a lot. At least it's something I've experienced a great deal in the church and in the world. It feels like some men, sometimes, disown their power and responsibility either by making women angels or devils. If you do this to a woman, either way you have something to blame and it let's you off the hook.

In this way, I believe that men are emasculating themselves. And women are put in a really hard place. We can't make mistakes and we can't be perfect enough.

I don't see it very much in my current ward, which I recognize is an exceptional ward. I have seen it often enough in the past:

Young women leaders scolding the young men for not being (in their opinion) sufficiently prepared for an activity.

Young women acting in an unkind, derisive or mocking manner toward less mature or elegant or polished young men.

Women making openly disparaging comments about their husbands in Relief Society (this one used to set off Sister Vort).

Single sisters finding fault with and/or taking offense at younger (and often not-so-younger) adult brethren trying to fulfill their callings as best they can.

Snarky comments about visiting teaching numbers being so much higher than home teaching numbers.

I am perfectly aware that all these things are done by men toward themselves. I abhor that mentality. But I almost never see men doing such things toward the sisters.

Maybe I am wrong. But having been in situations where LDS women disparage men, I think it would be nice for the leaders (including the male leaders) to speak as directly to the sisters about unkind and damaging behavior as they often do to the brethren.

I appreciate this because it highlights at least one behavior that seems to be problematic. Being critical hurts. It hurts when women do it in private and it is especially problematic if done in public in RS. Am I getting that right, Vort? And what you are saying is that you'd like the women to learn a better way.

I would agree that such a critical, perfectionistic way would be damaging to a man's sense of self. But I'd say that such is damaging to anyone! I guess I'm still missing what specifically makes this an emasculating behavior. I guess I can see how it could be.....

I do feel to say that women are vocal about their concerns. We tend to vent about stuff. It's the currency of how women get support from each other. So, what might feel like a criticism to you in RS might just be a woman talking about her concerns. But what I'm hearing is that it can really be painful and damaging and women need to protect their men and sons by watching their tongues.

If I might, how would men prefer to be corrected? If boys come to the church house unprepared, don't they have to deal with the fall out just like anyone who comes unprepared? If I teach math, and I say there is a quiz and dude A comes unprepared, am I damaging his manhood if I say "tough noogies. you should have studied."?

I guess this relates to my concern listed above. I feel like women are expected to protect men's feelings at all costs. But that renders us rather impotent, forgive the term. When men are behaving badly.....regardless of what it is (and I mean badly, not just different than some expectation set)....how would you suggest women handle it? It seems like walking a tightrope even under the best of circumstances. I guess I want to raise my boys to deal with a little female scrutiny and to not be so daunted if they see an unpleasant emotional response in women. It doesn't mean "you suck" if she is upset about something. It just means she's hurting and she wants you to know so you can be her hero and make it better.

[Vort]

If I might, how would men prefer to be corrected?

How do women prefer to be corrected?