Polygamy in the afterlife?

[NeedleinA]

19 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

The Bishop told my dad, Man was not meant to be alone...if wanted to go on a mission he had to be married.

Admittedly you have me a little lost. Are we talking about your dad getting remarried, or your dad going on a mission or that the church is supposedly teaching people to practice polygamy? Can you please clarify your actual concern to one sentence for us. Thanks!

[TurboGirl]

1 minute ago, estradling75 said:

Because God says so...

Lots of questions are like that...

Why do we need a Savior?

Why do we need to be baptized?

Why do we need to repent?

etc etc

 

 

Where is the revelation and from which Prophet?

[TurboGirl]

1 minute ago, estradling75 said:

Because God says so...

Lots of questions are like that...

Why do we need a Savior?

Why do we need to be baptized?

Why do we need to repent?

etc etc

 

 

Where is the revelation and from which Prophet?

[TurboGirl]

3 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Admittedly you have me a little lost. Are we talking about your dad getting remarried, or your dad going on a mission or that the church is supposedly teaching people to practice polygamy? Can you please clarify your actual concern to one sentence for us. Thanks!

Sorry. I'll try and make this story short. My mom was sick for 3 years before she die. They had talked about going on a "couples" mission (not sure of the correct term) but she got sicker and could never go. Anyway, after she had passed my dad really got into his faith, which is understand able. His calling in the church was clerk or secretary for the Bishop. He, the Bishop, and my dad brother (very devout Mormon) spent a lot of time together. He (bishop) knew my dad really wanted to go on a mission, so he and my uncle told my dad that he had to be married to go on a mission. My uncle pushed my dad to start dating. (Dating I totally supported, he might be 70 but he is in very good shape) Anyway that was my dad's main goal was to find someone to go on this mission with him. He kept telling me he was only marrying for time not eternity. I was okay with this because I thought he was already married in the temple, and if he this made him happy, it's a good thing.

[estradling75]

16 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

Where is the revelation and from which Prophet?

As has been mentioned before D&C Section 132 here is a link https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132

It sets up Sealing of a Man and Woman as a necessary ordinance for Exaltation and gives the direction for polygamy.

Then you have Official Declaration 1 which ends the practice of having more then one wife who is alive at the same time link here https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od/1?lang=eng Due to persecution of the practice.

 

 

[SpiritDragon]

1 hour ago, TurboGirl said:

So you would still have babies in Heaven?

We believe that we are literal spirit children of divine parentage. Eternal Marriage (temple sealing) is required to attain the highest order of the Celestial Kingdom (the highest heaven if you will). Only those in the "top level of the Celestial Kingdom" (exalted beings) have the blessing of "eternal increase" referring to eternal posterity. This eternal posterity is above and beyond the limits of nearly never ending mortal posterity (great grandkids to the nth degree on earth even following one's passing) but refers to direct posterity of spirits. Are there babies in Heaven? I don't know, not much is known about how spirits are formed and mature. What is know is that only those who are sealed for time and eternity enjoy the blessing of having infinite spirit offspring.

I personally have loved having a baby around so much that I certainly hope there are babies in Heaven.

[estradling75]

10 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

Sorry. I'll try and make this story short. My mom was sick for 3 years before she die. They had talked about going on a "couples" mission (not sure of the correct term) but she got sicker and could never go. Anyway, after she had passed my dad really got into his faith, which is understand able. His calling in the church was clerk or secretary for the Bishop. He, the Bishop, and my dad brother (very devout Mormon) spent a lot of time together. He (bishop) knew my dad really wanted to go on a mission, so he and my uncle told my dad that he had to be married to go on a mission. My uncle pushed my dad to start dating. (Dating I totally supported, he might be 70 but he is in very good shape) Anyway that was my dad's main goal was to find someone to go on this mission with him. He kept telling me he was only marrying for time not eternity. I was okay with this because I thought he was already married in the temple, and if he this made him happy, it's a good thing.

So your father wants to serve a couples mission....  Understandably this requires him to be part of a living couple...  So that is what he is told he needs to do...  I hardly all that being "pressured."  He has no need to be Sealed so for time only is also understandable.

So it seems most likely when he found a suitable companion, based on what you have said about her,  that she is the one that wanted to be Sealed for Eternity, due to her abusive ex. You father accepts that and moves forward.

You describe your father as a man with both mental and physical ability intact (otherwise he could not serve a mission) and with a solid foundation of the religion he believes in...  So why don't you give your father some credit that he knows exactly what he is doing?

 

[TurboGirl]

13 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

As has been mentioned before D&C Section 132 here is a link https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132

It sets up Sealing of a Man and Woman as a necessary ordinance for Exaltation and gives the direction for polygamy.

Then you have Official Declaration 1 which ends the practice of having more then one wife who is alive at the same time link here https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od/1?lang=eng Due to persecution of the practice.

 

 

I read it, and it's all about why they stopped Polygamy. But it says nothing about now and why men are still sealed to more than one woman after the first wife has passed on. I kind of get why a back then a woman might want to be sealed to the father of her children, even if he was married to other women, she would know anything else. But now my dad and his wife now, do not share this with each other. So I don't understand why he would need two wives, or if she was already sealed to one man, why the church would give her a divorce (which I thought LDS people that a temple marriage was unbreakable) and let her become the second wife of a man that already has a wife and children. My father and Amy will never have children of their own. So why would the church say this is okay, who change the "no polygamy" rule?

[estradling75]

7 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

I read it, and it's all about why they stopped Polygamy. But it says nothing about now and why men are still sealed to more than one woman after the first wife has passed on. I kind of get why a back then a woman might want to be sealed to the father of her children, even if he was married to other women, she would know anything else. But now my dad and his wife now, do not share this with each other. So I don't understand why he would need two wives, or if she was already sealed to one man, why the church would give her a divorce (which I thought LDS people that a temple marriage was unbreakable) and let her become the second wife of a man that already has a wife and children. My father and Amy will never have children of their own. So why would the church say this is okay, who change the "no polygamy" rule?

You ask why... we say because God said so..  you ask where did he say so... and we point you to it... You complain it doesn't say why....  This is a circle that will continue to go round and round until you accept the answer we are telling you instead of the answer you want to hear.

 

What no polygamy rule? The rule is no more then one living wife.  There has never been a rule on how many can be sealed after they have passed on.  At this point in time your father has exactly one living wife

Edited May 11, 2016 by estradling75

[Vort]

1 hour ago, TurboGirl said:

The Bishop told my dad, Man was not meant to be alone...if wanted to go on a mission he had to be married.

I agree fully that man was not meant to be alone, and it is true that an unmarried (including widowed) man will not be called to serve as a missionary -- though an unmarried (including widowed) woman may be so called. Some men have decried this as unfair, but whether or not we think it's "fair", that's how it is. Unmarried men do not serve missions. Period. The only exceptions I know of are men who are called on lifetime "missions" as General Authorities. If they are left widowers in such a position, they may or may not remarry, as they see fit, but they do not lose their status (or "mission call") as a General Authority. Our current prophet and Church president, Thomas S. Monson, is a widower. One of our recently deceased apostles was, as well.

[TurboGirl]

17 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

We believe that we are literal spirit children of divine parentage. Eternal Marriage (temple sealing) is required to attain the highest order of the Celestial Kingdom (the highest heaven if you will). Only those in the "top level of the Celestial Kingdom" (exalted beings) have the blessing of "eternal increase" referring to eternal posterity. This eternal posterity is above and beyond the limits of nearly never ending mortal posterity (great grandkids to the nth degree on earth even following one's passing) but refers to direct posterity of spirits. Are there babies in Heaven? I don't know, not much is known about how spirits are formed and mature. What is know is that only those who are sealed for time and eternity enjoy the blessing of having infinite spirit offspring.

I personally have loved having a baby around so much that I certainly hope there are babies in Heaven.

Doesn't that defeat the whole earth experience? If babies are born in Heaven, they won't come to earth and get to live their own lives?

Sorry I don't share your desire to have "eternal posterity". I have 3 children, and they are wonderful people, and I love them more than words can be typed, but I done. I don't want an eternity of having children. I don't want an eternity of living with my family, I want to see them again, but I don't want to live with them. To me Mormon Heaven sounds like the family reunion that just doesn't end. Maybe that is why Amy acts the way she does, she wants to have babies with me dad...
 

 

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, TurboGirl said:

Doesn't that defeat the whole earth experience? If babies are born in Heaven, they won't come to earth and get to live their own lives?

Sorry I don't share your desire to have "eternal posterity". I have 3 children, and they are wonderful people, and I love them more than words can be typed, but I done. I don't want an eternity of having children. I don't want an eternity of living with my family, I want to see them again, but I don't want to live with them. To me Mormon Heaven sounds like the family reunion that just doesn't end. Maybe that is why Amy acts the way she does, she wants to have babies with me dad...
 

 

You lack a serious amount of foundation understand this but lets give the basics.

We believe we are the spiritual offspring of Heavenly Parents... Part of our growth sent us here to earth to gain physical bodies and to test our faith.  If we are true and faithful and gain all the Father has, we will become like him and do what he has done.  This means we will have spiritual offspring... we will send them to an earth to gain a physical body and if they are true and faithful they will gain all we have and they will become like us and do what we have done

[SpiritDragon]

3 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

Doesn't that defeat the whole earth experience? If babies are born in Heaven, they won't come to earth and get to live their own lives?

Sorry I don't share your desire to have "eternal posterity". I have 3 children, and they are wonderful people, and I love them more than words can be typed, but I done. I don't want an eternity of having children. I don't want an eternity of living with my family, I want to see them again, but I don't want to live with them. To me Mormon Heaven sounds like the family reunion that just doesn't end. Maybe that is why Amy acts the way she does, she wants to have babies with me dad...
 

 

I don't see how it defeats the earth experience at all - but I suppose that depends somewhat on your personal view of the purpose of life. I tend to think of the co-existence between people in heaven will be very much like a married couple living on their own with the option to go visit in-laws or have the kids over. I see plenty of autonomy and space but also plenty of fulfilling socializing opportunities. But, I can also see how you could think of it as the family reunion that never ends. 

 

[TurboGirl]

28 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

So your father wants to serve a couples mission....  Understandably this requires him to be part of a living couple...  So that is what he is told he needs to do...  I hardly all that being "pressured."  He has no need to be Sealed so for time only is also understandable.

 

 

Because I found out he could have went on a mission without a wife, but the bishop left that out. I also found out that couple does not do apostatizing missions which is what he wanted, but bishop left that out. I can't do anything about what has been done, just want to try to understand it, but I guess I never will. All I can hope for is the prophet doesn't pull a Jim Jones, and hope Amy doesn't have a feeling/dream/revelation that they need to leave this world, or stop contact with me or my brother.

[TurboGirl]

28 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

So your father wants to serve a couples mission....  Understandably this requires him to be part of a living couple...  So that is what he is told he needs to do...  I hardly all that being "pressured."  He has no need to be Sealed so for time only is also understandable.

 

 

Because I found out he could have went on a mission without a wife, but the bishop left that out. I also found out that couple does not do apostatizing missions which is what he wanted, but bishop left that out. I can't do anything about what has been done, just want to try to understand it, but I guess I never will. All I can hope for is the prophet doesn't pull a Jim Jones, and hope Amy doesn't have a feeling/dream/revelation that they need to leave this world, or stop contact with me or my brother.

[Vort]

50 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

My uncle pushed my dad to start dating. (Dating I totally supported, he might be 70 but he is in very good shape) Anyway that was my dad's main goal was to find someone to go on this mission with him. He kept telling me he was only marrying for time not eternity. I was okay with this because I thought he was already married in the temple, and if he this made him happy, it's a good thing.

This casts things in a slightly different light. Let me explain, and see if my explanation makes any sense.

A widower's brother urges him to date. That's what brothers are for -- to help us through tough times and to give advice and suggestions. Take it from me, I might appreciate my brothers' input, but I'm not going to do what they say just because they badger me. I will do what *I* want to do. I'll listen to them, but I'm in charge of me. I expect the same is true with your dad.

Your father's wish to go on a mission is a good goal. And yes, it does require him to be married. The idea that your dad was looking for a "missionary companion" strikes me as a bit thin. Please don't misunderstand; I am not disparaging your father. But if I'm left widowed and I decide (for whatever reason) that I'm going to date, I am extraordinarily unlikely to confide my most intimate feelings to my daughter. Just won't happen. I'm going to tell her I'm looking for a missionary companion or whatever. I don't want her to think I am trying to replace her mother like I would replace a couch or a car, and I'm certainly not going to talk to her about my desperate loneliness or that a man feels whole and connected to the world when he has a physical relationship with his wife. But as a man, that may well be what I would feel, and it is not hard to think that your father felt the same way.

So how to justify marrying another woman to his daughter? For myself, I would just say, "I decided to marry her" and leave it at that, but a man deeply concerned about his daughter's feelings might try to find a little less direct way to tell her. I can't say with any authority that this is actually what your father felt, but putting myself in his situation, that's what makes sense to me. And it may well be that he was thinking to marry "for time" only, but when the situation unfolded, he rethought his position. I understand that that might strike you as unfaithful, but it is not. Not at all, no more than if your mother had been widowed and had remarried.

On a philosophical note: None of this matters unless you believe in LDS doctrine. And if you do believe, then LDS doctrine comprises the teachings of God to man. So if those true and divine teachings include plural marriage (or painting one's toenails, or naked jello dancing, or eating live cockroaches, or whatever else), then those things are good and Godly pretty much by definition. So either your dad's beliefs are false (and therefore don't matter, so you shouldn't be concerned), or else they're true (so they're divine, and you shouldn't be concerned). In either case, the common thread is, "You shouldn't be concerned".

[TurboGirl]

20 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

You ask why... we say because God said so..  you ask where did he say so... and we point you to it... You complain it doesn't say why....  This is a circle that will continue to go round and round until you accept the answer we are telling you instead of the answer you want to hear.

 

What no polygamy rule? The rule is no more then one living wife.  There has never been a rule on how many can be sealed after they have passed on.  At this point in time your father has exactly one living wife

thanks for the article.

[TurboGirl]

20 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

You ask why... we say because God said so..  you ask where did he say so... and we point you to it... You complain it doesn't say why....  This is a circle that will continue to go round and round until you accept the answer we are telling you instead of the answer you want to hear.

 

What no polygamy rule? The rule is no more then one living wife.  There has never been a rule on how many can be sealed after they have passed on.  At this point in time your father has exactly one living wife

thanks for the article.

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

Because I found out he could have went on a mission without a wife, but the bishop left that out.

Not so. An unmarried man (even if widowed) cannot serve a mission.

3 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

I also found out that couple does not do apostatizing missions which is what he wanted, but bishop left that out.

Also not true. Many, perhaps most, older couple missionaries are not called to proselytizing missions because they don't want to serve such a mission, but they certainly may be called to one if they are willing.

4 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

All I can hope for is the prophet doesn't pull a Jim Jones, and hope Amy doesn't have a feeling/dream/revelation that they need to leave this world, or stop contact with me or my brother.

Honestly, TurboGirl, if this is your feelings and level of knowledge toward the LDS Church, I really think you need to learn a great deal more about us and the LDS Church in general before passing any judgment on your dad's marital choices.

[estradling75]

9 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

Because I found out he could have went on a mission without a wife, but the bishop left that out. I also found out that couple does not do apostatizing missions which is what he wanted, but bishop left that out. I can't do anything about what has been done, just want to try to understand it, but I guess I never will. All I can hope for is the prophet doesn't pull a Jim Jones, and hope Amy doesn't have a feeling/dream/revelation that they need to leave this world, or stop contact with me or my brother.

I believe that whoever said he could serve a mission without a wife was mistaken...  18-26 year old young men can.  Women can... But after 26 men must be married.

 

And how about exercising some faith in your father... or is your opinion of him really so low you think he is a old fool who has no idea what he is doing?

Edited May 11, 2016 by estradling75

[LeSellers]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

9 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

Because I found out he could have went on a mission without a wife, but the bishop left that out.

Not so. An unmarried man (even if widowed) cannot serve a mission.

Any man who has been married (or who has children out of wedlock) cannot serve a mission unless his wife is called to the same mission.

Any man who is over the age of 26 cannot serve a mission unless he is married and his wife is called to the same mission.

Lehi

[TurboGirl]

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

 "You shouldn't be concerned".

True and you're right

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

does not do apostatizing missions

29 minutes ago, TurboGirl said:

 

That is very true. No one in the church does apostatizing missions.

 

Quote

All I can hope for is the prophet doesn't pull a Jim Jones

Wow. 

[Just_A_Guy]

TurboGirl, Brian and Laura Hales have recently written a book called "Joaeph Smith's Polygamy" that I think does a good job of distilling the rationales for polygamy out of D&C 132 (D&C 132 is highly context-specific and may actually be a splicing together of several revelations, some received up to ten years prior, so it can be a little opaque).  I would strongly recommend it.

As to the conundrum you pose about your mom not being OK with Stepmom--the thing to bear in mind is that doctrinally, a sealing's effectiveness is contingent on the righteousness of the people involved.  If Stepmom is such a nightmare that Mom could never abide her presence--you have nothing to worry about, because Stepmom's unrighteousness will have essentially nullified her marriage to your father.  If, on the other hand, Stepmom is actually a decent lady--by the time they're all in the Celestial kingdom they will all be infinitely kind, infinitely patient, infinitely fair, will enjoy infinite time to cultivate their relationships, and will have completely banished jealousy and irritations and pettiness.  I think the rest will work itself out.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

7 hours ago, TurboGirl said:

Because I found out he could have went on a mission without a wife, but the bishop left that out. I also found out that couple does not do apostatizing missions which is what he wanted, but bishop left that out. I can't do anything about what has been done, just want to try to understand it, but I guess I never will. All I can hope for is the prophet doesn't pull a Jim Jones, and hope Amy doesn't have a feeling/dream/revelation that they need to leave this world, or stop contact with me or my brother.

I really have a hard time understanding why this would even concern you.  You don't believe in our faith.  You don't believe there is any power to marry for eternity.  So, why are you worried about what your mother would think of this?  

If we're false, then we're false.  We don't have any authority to bind marriages for eternity.  It is just ink on paper, nothing more.  Therefore it is no different than any other marriage.  Other faiths allow widows and widowers to remarry and there is no issue with that.  If we have no special authority, then why would this bother you?

Edited May 11, 2016 by Guest