Loaning a temple recommend?

[searching_questioner]

I can't help thinking that this sounds like the kind of thing that might happen somewhere down in the backwoods, on the backroads, and those who have engaged in it may well end up going backwards :)

[MsMagnolia]

I can't help thinking that this sounds like the kind of thing that might happen somewhere down in the backwoods, on the backroads, and those who have engaged in it may well end up going backwards :)

I live in rural Louisana where members are few and far between. I can assure you I have never, I repeat NEVER have heard of a person living "down in the backwoods" dishonoring their covenants like this. We were so excited to get our first temple in 2000. When my family was sealed iin 1981 we traveled three days in a car to Arizona to be sealed and were grateful for the opportunity. Now we feel so blessed to be only three and a half hours from the temple. I know you probably meant your comment to be funny so I am just trying to set the record stright about us "backwoods" kind of people.

Mags

[john doe]

Any ideas whether or not this would invalidate the sealing? I mean how worthy would the Bride and Groom be at the time if they were complicit to this mockery of sacredness?

If they were directly involved, I would imagine that that may be a consideration. However, if they were not involved, then I would view it more on the lines of the sacrament. Just because a priesthood holder may be unworthily taking part in the ordinance does not automatically dissolve the effectiveness of it for all participants. But those perpetrating the fraud would surely be bringing condemnation upon themselves for their parts in the fraud.

God will not be mocked in His house, and those who participated in this will be held accountable, either in this life or the next. It says a lot to me about their belief and faith that they think this thing would be no big deal.

[john doe]

I can't help thinking that this sounds like the kind of thing that might happen somewhere down in the backwoods, on the backroads, and those who have engaged in it may well end up going backwards :)

I disagree. In my experience, those who live in the 'mission field' seem overall to take their covenants and commitment to the gospel and the church more seriously than many of those who live in the Mountain West corridor. Perhaps it's because they have to work harder at it than the rest of us do, but they seem to have an ability to take the things of God more seriously and integrate it into their lives better than those who comfortably live within an hour of 8 temples yet rarely enter in. I would expect this sort of thing to happen more along the Wasatch Front than in Vernal or Lubbock or Columbia, SC.

[RMGuy]

My opinion?

Beatrice and Benedick

-RM

[Leah]

My opinion?

Beatrice and Benedick

-RM

Are you saying this is "much ado about nothing"?

That the loaning of a temple recommend is "nothing"?

[RMGuy]

Yes Leah. That is EXACTLY what I am saying.

Your life, and mine is in no way different before this event than after it. People lie everyday to get into the temple and it does not change the efficacy of those ordinances. The only difference now, is that you "know" about it. It is the Lord's house, right? Let him sort it out. If these individuals leaders are prompted to act...great. If not, that is fine too.

Would I ask to loan a recommend? No. Would I loan my recommend? No. Have I sat in sessions with people that weren't worthy to be there in the past? Probably. Did I sit in sessions were individuals lied or were deceitful in order to there. Yep. Does it change the ordinance? Nope. Is my salvation impacted by their choices? Nope.

Beatrice and Benedick...Much Ado about Nothing.

-RM

[Vort]

Yes Leah. That is EXACTLY what I am saying.

Your life, and mine is in no way different before this event than after it. People lie everyday to get into the temple and it does not change the efficacy of those ordinances. The only difference now, is that you "know" about it. It is the Lord's house, right? Let him sort it out. If these individuals leaders are prompted to act...great. If not, that is fine too.

Would I ask to loan a recommend? No. Would I loan my recommend? No. Have I sat in sessions with people that weren't worthy to be there in the past? Probably. Did I sit in sessions were individuals lied or were deceitful in order to there. Yep. Does it change the ordinance? Nope. Is my salvation impacted by their choices? Nope.

Beatrice and Benedick...Much Ado about Nothing.

This is not about the efficacy of the ordinances. No one has suggested those ordinances are in any way affected. Rather, you have said that the "loaning" of a temple recommend -- that is, entering the house of the Lord on false pretenses -- is "nothing". You are wrong. Period.

The violent rape and dismemberment of an Afghani woman also does not affect the efficacy of temple ordinances. By your logic, then, objecting to the rape and dismemberment of that Afghani woman is "much ado about nothing". I disagree, as I expect does every other participant on this list besides yourself.

[Leah]

Yes Leah. That is EXACTLY what I am saying.

Your life, and mine is in no way different before this event than after it. People lie everyday to get into the temple and it does not change the efficacy of those ordinances. The only difference now, is that you "know" about it. It is the Lord's house, right? Let him sort it out. If these individuals leaders are prompted to act...great. If not, that is fine too.

Would I ask to loan a recommend? No. Would I loan my recommend? No. Have I sat in sessions with people that weren't worthy to be there in the past? Probably. Did I sit in sessions were individuals lied or were deceitful in order to there. Yep. Does it change the ordinance? Nope. Is my salvation impacted by their choices? Nope.

Beatrice and Benedick...Much Ado about Nothing.

-RM

I disagree.

If it is "nothing", then why have any rules or standards? Why have recommends at all? Why not just throw open the temple doors to anyone and everyone?

If it is "nothing", then the participants did nothing wrong and there are no consequences.

Being deceitful is "nothing"? Violating one's covenants is "nothing"?

While it may not have a direct or immediate impact on you or I, when people are deceitful, it does cause harm. I am sorry you are unable to grasp that.

Just because it is up to Heavenly Father to take care of this situation, in no way makes it "nothing".

[RMGuy]

Vort,

you make me smile. I don't think you can demonstrate wherein I stated that entering the House of the Lord under false pretenses is nothing, and your Afghan woman argument is a straw man.

What I did say, at the very beginning, was that the thread was much ado about nothing...unless you believe that the Lord needs you to help steady the ark? No one was impacted by these individuals choice (however poor, or in poor taste they might be), except themselves. I think the Lord can handle that perfectly well on his own, and we probably have better things to do with our time. You know like serve the poor and the needy, to name just a couple.

-RM

[Vort]

Vort,

you make me smile. I don't think you can demonstrate wherein I stated that entering the House of the Lord under false pretenses is nothing

Wrong. Behold:

Are you saying this is "much ado about nothing"? That the loaning of a temple recommend is "nothing"?

Yes Leah. That is EXACTLY what I am saying.

You said just exactly what I claimed you said. (Now don't you feel silly?)

and your Afghan woman argument is a straw man.

Nope. It was a perfect demonstration of your illogic. You cannot rebut it except by denying it and (wrongly) claiming it as a logical fallacy. If you can, then do so.

What I did say, at the very beginning, was that the thread was much ado about nothing

As I have shown, this is not what you said. Rather, you said exactly what I pointed out. You may have MEANT something else, but that is not what you said.

No one was impacted by these individuals choice (however poor, or in poor taste they might be), except themselves.

Really? And how do you know that? Does your extra-sensory perception allow you to read the mind of the bride, and know that the fact that she saw IN THE SEALING ROOM someone whom she knew was not even LDS had absolutely no ill effect on her?

I disbelieve you. You can know no such thing.

I think the Lord can handle that perfectly well on his own, and we probably have better things to do with our time. You know like serve the poor and the needy, to name just a couple.

Now there is an excellent example of a laughable argument. How, exactly, does noting the evil of entering the temple under false pretenses have anything at all to do with serving the poor and needy?

Or did you just bring that up because you thought (wrongly) that it made you sound holy?

Yep. That's pretty much what I thought.

[RMGuy]

Well let's try this advice: It seemed pretty good when I read it:

"one of the lessons we learn in Church is that we leave judgment to those whose duty it is to judge...

Similarly, on a ward level, discipline is left to the bishop, not to us. In general, I think bishops do remarkably -- perhaps miraculously -- well, but there are probably mistakes made on this level, too. Not our problem...Please do not let the weaknesses of the members, or even of the leaders, diminish your desire. "

Seemed like good advice in the situation in which it was given...probably good advice here too.

-RM

[Vort]

Well let's try this advice: It seemed pretty good when I read it:

"one of the lessons we learn in Church is that we leave judgment to those whose duty it is to judge...

Similarly, on a ward level, discipline is left to the bishop, not to us. In general, I think bishops do remarkably -- perhaps miraculously -- well, but there are probably mistakes made on this level, too. Not our problem...Please do not let the weaknesses of the members, or even of the leaders, diminish your desire. "

Seemed like good advice in the situation in which it was given...probably good advice here too.

Who said that quote? It's amazing! That guy must be a freaking genius.

Where, exactly, are you seeing judgments made against the individuals, other than that what they did was wrong and dishonest (both of which are obviously true) and that they should not be members of the Church if they are mocking their covenants in that way (which is a general opinion to the situation, and clearly not a personal judgment on someone we don't even know)?

I also note that you haven't yet bothered to admit you were wrong, and that you did in very fact say exactly what I claimed you said.

[Leah]

Well let's try this advice: It seemed pretty good when I read it:

"one of the lessons we learn in Church is that we leave judgment to those whose duty it is to judge...

Similarly, on a ward level, discipline is left to the bishop, not to us. In general, I think bishops do remarkably -- perhaps miraculously -- well, but there are probably mistakes made on this level, too. Not our problem...Please do not let the weaknesses of the members, or even of the leaders, diminish your desire. "

Seemed like good advice in the situation in which it was given...probably good advice here too.

-RM

It is "wrong" for someone to say the loaning of a temple recommend is not right to do, but it is "right" for YOU to tell others that they are "wrong".

Gotcha.

[RMGuy]

It is "wrong" for someone to say the loaning of a temple recommend is not right to do, but it is "right" for YOU to tell others that they are "wrong".

Gotcha.

The quote above was Vort's.

-RM

[mnn727]

Just a point - they have not wronged you or me - It is G-d they have offended. And if you think G-d cannot or will not handle this properly then perhaps we need step in to protect him or something.

So then we should just let God handle all sin and its none of our business.

[Traveler]

So then we should just let God handle all sin and its none of our business.

You really missed my point --- If a stranger (or meddling neighbor - or even a member of my extended family) took it upon themself to spank my child in front of me and without my permission or asking me; for the sole reason that they thought the child was disrespectful to their parent - I would be so angry at them I would forget what-ever it was my child had done.

The Traveler

[Vort]

You really missed my point --- If a stranger (or meddling neighbor - or even a member of my extended family) took it upon themself to spank my child in front of me and without my permission or asking me; for the sole reason that they thought the child was disrespectful to their parent - I would be so angry at them I would forget what-ever it was my child had done.

Is expressing outrage at outrageous actions the same as spanking someone?

[Backroads]

Is expressing outrage at outrageous actions the same as spanking someone?

I don't think so.

For the matter at hand, I think I will mention this incident to my bishop and let that go where it will. I will probably continue the same relationship I've had for a few years' now with this family and probably refrain about berating them about their actions. While this action has done absolutely nothing to repair the already not-what-it-was relationship, I will continue to love them and serve them as I always have.

I do not think what they did is "much ado about nothing" but I do agree with RMGuy that my own salvation does not have much to do with this and I'm not going to lie awake at night stressing about what they did. Beyond the advice of many on this thread to bring it up to my bishop, I don't think there's much I can or even should do.

My feelings toward the action that was done? I'm still outraged.

[RMGuy]

Is expressing outrage at outrageous actions the same as spanking someone?

Only in the same way that loaning a temple recommend is analogous to raping and dismembering an Afghan woman.

<wink>

-RM

[Vort]

Only in the same way that loaning a temple recommend is analogous to raping and dismembering an Afghan woman.

<wink>

Winks aside, you, not I, are the one who made the illogical and false claim that "loaning" a temple recommend is inoffensive because it does not affect the integrity of temple ordinances. The same is true of raping and dismembering an Afghani woman. You have yet to demonstrate any fallacy in what I wrote.

You also have yet to admit you are wrong based on my proof, or of offering any sort of proof of your position other than your bare assertion.

[Backroads]

Update: Mentioned the situation to Bishop (the many bishops I happen to work with also approved of this), will let it go where it will.

Other update: I actually talked to someone involved, not in this particular case, but in a very similar case that occurred some years ago.

Extremely sad story.

Very nice lady, sweet as can be, told me her story (and without prompting from me, it was like someone sensed I needed perspective on this). She had always thought of herself as a humble and righteous LDS member. Son was getting married in the temple. Woman had a best friend-since-childhood whom she wanted at this sealing. Best friend was NOT LDS. Woman and Friend talked it over and over and managed to convince themselves that borrowing someone else's temple recommend for Friend wasn't so bad as it was just witnessing a sealing, not an endowment or actually participating in anything (Woman admitted how very wrong she had been thinking). Son got wind of this, told Woman straight out he didn't want Friend at the sealing. Huge fight ensued, Woman failing to see Son's point about the recommend, integrity, and temple covenants, Son failing to appreciate Woman wanting her best friend to share in this joyous time with her. Son told Woman flat-out Friend was not invited. Woman, furious at Son, figured by the time the sealing was in progress, it would be too late.

...Son and Son's Bride changed the sealing time without telling Woman and also informed the temple of what was being plotted. Woman missed Son's sealing.

[circusboy01]

Last year, a close friend of the family was married in the temple. Did not attend the sealing, passed on my congratulations, never thought much about it. This morning I found out that another close friend--who happens to be a staunch life-long Catholic--had attended the sealing. The family had borrowed a friend's temple recommend to get her into the temple.

Now, this Catholic woman is extremely close to the bride, and I can appreciate wanting this woman to be there at this special occasion, but this strikes me as completely dishonest.

I realize it's none of my business and I'm trying not to waste too much thought on it, but I'm afraid I've lost a lot of respect for the people in question. I believe I'm also more bothered by the concept in general than this individual incident.

Now I'm wondering about just how common this is.

IN MY opinion the person who loaned the recommend should be excommunicated. But that will never happen, because she will never admit who she is Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

Speculating here: I wonder if Ms. Catholic did not fully understand the significance of the temple recommend and put the borrowing it on the same level as borrowing, say, a friend's pass to the swim park. Naughty, yes, but nothing epic.

Since she is friends with a LDS family there is a good chance she did know how wrong it was. Especially when the loaner took her to the side and said "Whatever you do don't tell anyone". I don't really know if that happened. But I would be willing to bet that something along those lines did. Brother Ray

[circusboy01]

Wow. So perhaps minding my own business isn't the best here. How would I go about finding out who to speak to?

If you need answers go to your Bishop. If he can't help you, he can point you to someone who can. Brother Ray