What happens after Judgement Day?

[Nazareth]

Is the Final Judgement really just a way of classifying which kingdom we go to and stay there forever? Is it possible to progress from kingdom to kingdom after the Judgement Day? To me, it seems "unfair" to keep someone in a place for eternity unable to progress to the next glory - limited eternal progression (if that makes any sense).

[skippy740]

As far as I know, it has not been revealed if there's an "appeals court" in the plan of salvation.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Is the Final Judgement really just a way of classifying which kingdom we go to and stay there forever? Is it possible to progress from kingdom to kingdom after the Judgement Day? To me, it seems "unfair" to keep someone in a place for eternity unable to progress to the next glory - limited eternal progression (if that makes any sense).

Does God judge unfairly?

[Nazareth]

Of course not! He judges fairly, but I am talking about the situation after judgement.

[slamjet]

Another way to think about it: is it fair for others who finally see the light and get to progress when there are many who did just that during their time of probation, when it was most difficult?

The scriptures are pretty clear that THIS is the time of our probation. I wouldn't count on anything after we finish with the period of mortality.

[Nazareth]

Even though this is our time of probation, some will still have to repent after this life. I cannot remember the quote, but a general authority said that it would be harder after this life to repent, but repentance is still there. I know for a fact that we will have agency after we are placed into kingdoms, but does the principle of repentance apply after the Judgement? I would hope so. Although once those who are placed in the celestial kingdom would never want to use their agency to do evil because of their hearts qualifying them to be in that kingdom.

So...if it is 10x 100x or 1000x harder to repent after this life, is it still then possible to progress from kingdom to kingdom? To me it seems right, but those that didn't obey would have a slower progression than those that did.

[slamjet]

Sure, but the question seems to run into what 2 Nephi 28:7 is talking about. I'd rather think more along the lines of what needs to be taken care of now than to think too deeply on a question where there is no solid answer to. Fairness is not the issue, obedience is. That's what I was trying to point out.

[Nazareth]

This post is more speculation on the future than what needs to be done right now. It is also a view on other's opinions of what they think. Obedience can be met at any time, or throughout time. I understand what 2 Nephi 28:7 says, thank you for that...It just doesn't make sense to have an eternal progression when the progress will eventually stop because it can only limit you to a certain amount of knowledge, otherwise you would learn what the higher kingdoms are learning.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Nazareth

[Vort]

So then, obedience is not really very important right now. We don't need to worry about doing our duty to God or anything like that. We have eternity, after all, and surely a just and loving God would not arbitrarily limit us! We'll repent later on, and still be able to progress! Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die, and it will be well with us! The Lord has created all men, and has also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men will have eternal life!

[Nazareth]

Obedience is a commandment. It is very important to follow it. We definitely need to worry about our duties to God. Those that eat, drink, and be merry cause themselves to slow their progression here on earth, which will then cause them to progress at a lower level to Godhood, which could take a millennium, two millenniums, or however long it is needed to learn that principle or step towards Godhood. They are prolonging their course towards further progression (I even think there was a recent talk about this particular subject as well).

This brings to mind our agency before this earth life. We all progressed at different times, which ultimately decided how and where we were to be placed in different lifestyles and diverse cultures, to learn the principles we were not able to beforehand.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Even though this is our time of probation, some will still have to repent after this life. I cannot remember the quote, but a general authority said that it would be harder after this life to repent, but repentance is still there. I know for a fact that we will have agency after we are placed into kingdoms, but does the principle of repentance apply after the Judgement? I would hope so. Although once those who are placed in the celestial kingdom would never want to use their agency to do evil because of their hearts qualifying them to be in that kingdom.

So...if it is 10x 100x or 1000x harder to repent after this life, is it still then possible to progress from kingdom to kingdom? To me it seems right, but those that didn't obey would have a slower progression than those that did.

The process of repentance is one in which there is a change of heart. It is the heart what God judges. If He gets it right, knows what is in your heart, then it isn't a matter of jumping through some hoops of saying a certain prayer over and over again or some other ritual to prove what is in your heart. He gets it right the first time. If one says that a person placed in the Telestial Kingdom really belongs in the Terrestrial then we are saying that God judged wrongly.

We entered this world as mature spirits, having gone as far as we could in our development. Our true nature is revealed by this experience but not shaped by it. This life is more of a test than it is a classroom. Yes, there are things to learn here but one hopes to have learned all the material before walking into the final exam and not try to learn it during the exam. We know this is true because there are some souls that don't need to spend much time here, one hour of life and off they go to be judged and placed into the Celestial Kingdom. There was nothing they needed to learn or that God needed to learn about them for that matter.

In Gospel Principles it says: "

Telestial

These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81–88, 103–6, 109.)"

So, for those who even reject the gospel both here and in the spirit world, they will pay for their own sins before the completion of the final judgment, which is synonymous with the point of resurrection. So, if that is the case, what sins would they have to repent of after the resurrection? There are no more sins after the resurrection. Therefore there is no more repentance after resurrection. Ask yourself whether the Holy Ghost can dwell in a place of sin. These are Kingdoms of glory where sin does not reside.

[Vort]

Dude, seriously, what you're preaching is no sort of LDS doctrine.

Edited November 8, 2012 by Vort

[Nazareth]

This is not a topic of doctrine Vort. Excuse me if i'm wrong, but I did in fact say it was "speculation". If our Heavenly Father sees it fit that we are to be placed in that Kingdom with no way of progression to other Kingdoms, then I am perfectly fine with His decision. I am merely trying to hear the thoughts of others who want to contribute to this question. One - I am NOT preaching. Two - The previous post was being paraphrased from a talk that I read. Three - Did I EVER mention that these posts were to be doctrine?

The reason for this post was to gain insight on my questions. This forum has been extremely rude, trying to find the faults in anything I say. This was to be a conversation by which we could collectively help each other in the process of finding out what God has in store for us after this life. If in fact you are correct then I applaud you for your contribution.

[Vort]

No offense intended, Nazareth. I guess I find such speculation to be worse than useless, because we lack so much knowledge that we cannot possibly arrive at a correct understanding just by coming up with various scenarios. But I didn't mean to slap you down, and I'm sorry for being so critical.

[slamjet]

I'm not getting it. How can we have a meaningful conversation on something that no information has been given? At least with speculation there is some little shred of something that can be extrapolated from.

The only thing I know that comes close is from an Apostle who taught that very thing and Joseph Smith, in answer to the Apostle's teaching said that it was all well and good except for one thing, it's wrong. For the life of me, I can't find the quote again but I know I've read it a few times, possibly from a Skousen book so take it for what it's worth.

[applepansy]

Is the Final Judgement really just a way of classifying which kingdom we go to and stay there forever? Is it possible to progress from kingdom to kingdom after the Judgement Day? To me, it seems "unfair" to keep someone in a place for eternity unable to progress to the next glory - limited eternal progression (if that makes any sense).

If you think of this life as Junior High/Middle School....then after judgement day we'll be going to High School.

[mikbone]

“The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.”

-Secretary to the First Presidency in a 1952 letter; and again in 1965

“None would inherit this earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods — all others would have to inherit another kingdom — they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow process [progress?].”

-Brigham Young, in Wilford Woodruff Journal, 5 Aug 1855

“Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for.”

-Joseph F. Smith, Improvement Era 14:87 [November 1910]

“I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come.”

-J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3

“It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.”

-James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith [1899 edition] pp. 420-421

The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory

celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of

advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be

considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has

been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is

said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by

those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered

unto by those of the terrestrial—that is, those of the higher glory

minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for

all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for

the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of

eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so

many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories

after education and advancement within those spheres may at last

emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory

until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the

revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake

more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that

such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the

celestial glory—having before them the privilege also of eternal

progress—have been moving onward, so that the relative distance

between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser

glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of

celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at

the commencement. Thus: Those whose faith and works are such only as

to enable them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where

those whose works in this life were such as to enable them to entrance

into the celestial kingdom—they may arrive where these were, but never

where they are.”

B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God 1:391-392.

Some years ago I was in Washington, D.C., with President Harold B. Lee. Early one morning he called me to come into his hotel room. He was sitting in his robe reading Gospel Doctrine, by President Joseph F. Smith, and he said, Listen to this!

"Jesus had not finished his work when his body was slain, neither did he finish it after his resurrection from the dead; although he had accomplished the purpose for which he then came to the earth, he had not fulfilled all his work. And when will he? Not until he has redeemed and saved every son and daughter of our father Adam that have been or ever will be born upon this earth to the end of time, except the sons of perdition. That is his mission. We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission."

“There is never a time,” the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin.”

Boyd K. Packer, “The Brilliant Morning of Forgiveness,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 18

Edited November 3, 2012 by mikbone

[jayanna]

There is a chapter in the Gospel Principles (current teaching and therefore doctrine) about the final judgement and what happens after.

Gospel Principles Chapter 46: The Final Judgment

The final judgement is final. If it were not so, there would be no point in having three different kingdoms. You only inherit one kingdom, not one and then another one, and then another. But, not to worry, even the 3rd kingdom is so nice.

While Heavenly Father wishes us to obtain mercy, there must also be justice. We cannot enter into a kingdom for which we are not prepared, we would not be comfortable there. Some would not be comfortable with the responsibilities asked of those in the Celestial Kingdom. I know it sounds crazy, but there are some who don't want it. Not everyone thinks of that as heavenly. PLease see Doctrine and Covenants 88:16-33 

[Seminarysnoozer]

I like those verses in D&C that you shared. Including; " 32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift."

God will include in His judgment our willingness. And He won't get that aspect of judgement wrong. If He says that a person is not willing to abide by a Celestial law, that fact will not change over time. We will not change our willingness after this life as that is a judgement of our character not a list of achievements that somehow could be made up with more work. Even if more work is done, it would not change that level of willingness. There is nothing after this life to spark such a thing. The railroad tracks of these various Kingdoms do not cross again as those who receive the Telestial Kingdom receive a "fullness" of that Kingdom explained in D&C 88. "Fullness" meaning there is nothing greater than that for them, they inherit the fullness of their creation. Anything more than that fullness is a gift without the willingness to receive it. " 31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the atelestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness." If that is not true then there needs to be an explanation of what the word "fullness" means for the person in the Telestial kingdom.

[Traveler]

Really - is existence so hard to understand???? As with all events for living things - that which is prepared leading up to important events are the parameters that defines what will happen next and forever after in the sequence. Is this hard to understand?

As my father would say - you are now what you have spent your life becoming. And in the case of the final judgement as we are talking - we are in essence in the final processes of completing what has taken place of eons of eternity in becoming that which is the best of all possible worlds for us. Why anyone would think to change in a few moments what they have spent billions and trillions of years becoming is a shock to me. Procrastination is not a plan or a very smart or workable strategy for change. Is this really hard to understand?

The Traveler

[peteolcott]

Is the Final Judgement really just a way of classifying which kingdom we go to and stay there forever? Is it possible to progress from kingdom to kingdom after the Judgement Day? To me, it seems "unfair" to keep someone in a place for eternity unable to progress to the next glory - limited eternal progression (if that makes any sense).

Three degrees of glory makes sense to me, or maybe more aptly three types of glory each best fitted for different types of people.

[Traveler]

Three degrees of glory makes sense to me, or maybe more aptly three types of glory each best fitted for different types of people.

It is very interesting that man tends to classify mankind into two types and place them into heaven or hell. Whereas scripture tends to classify mankind into 3 classifications:

1. The covenant - or Israel - Those that accept and live the covenants of G-d.

2. Gentiles - those that do not enjoy of the covenants of G-d

3. Infidels - those that oppose living by the covenants of G-d

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is very interesting that man tends to classify mankind into two types and place them into heaven or hell. Whereas scripture tends to classify mankind into 3 classifications:

1. The covenant - or Israel - Those that accept and live the covenants of G-d.

2. Gentiles - those that do not enjoy of the covenants of G-d

3. Infidels - those that oppose living by the covenants of G-d

The Traveler

We don't cut all the pieces of the pie at the same time. There is one cut then there is another. The problem with man's view, if you want to call it that even though it also comes from God, is that is just looking at the first cut and not the subsequent cut.

The first cut is what divides those that will either go into spirit prison versus paradise at the end of their life. It is divided between those that kept their second estate - which relates to your description of a covenant people. The subsequent cut, which is not part of "man's view" in general is that those that accept Jesus afterwards even though they rejected Him here go into the Terrestrial Kingdom and those in the spirit world who also reject Him there go into the Telestial Kingdom.

The first cut and the second cut are God's view too it is just that "man's view" misses the next step.

I think we also have a hard time separating the words "gentiles" and "Israel" from their political or social or genetic context, which is not how God uses those designations. Those designations are purely based in covenant people or not.

Gospel Principles; "

Spirit Prison

The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom."

And; "

Terrestrial

These are they who rejected the gospel on earth but afterward received it in the spirit world. These are the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men. These are also they who received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant. They will be visited by Jesus Christ but not by our Heavenly Father. (See D&C 76:73–79.)

Telestial

These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81–88, 103–6, 109.)"

[Traveler]

We don't cut all the pieces of the pie at the same time. There is one cut then there is another. The problem with man's view, if you want to call it that even though it also comes from God, is that is just looking at the first cut and not the subsequent cut.

The first cut is what divides those that will either go into spirit prison versus paradise at the end of their life. It is divided between those that kept their second estate - which relates to your description of a covenant people. The subsequent cut, which is not part of "man's view" in general is that those that accept Jesus afterwards even though they rejected Him here go into the Terrestrial Kingdom and those in the spirit world who also reject Him there go into the Telestial Kingdom.

The first cut and the second cut are God's view too it is just that "man's view" misses the next step.

I think we also have a hard time separating the words "gentiles" and "Israel" from their political or social or genetic context, which is not how God uses those designations. Those designations are purely based in covenant people or not.

Gospel Principles; "

Spirit Prison

The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom."

And; "

Terrestrial

These are they who rejected the gospel on earth but afterward received it in the spirit world. These are the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men. These are also they who received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant. They will be visited by Jesus Christ but not by our Heavenly Father. (See D&C 76:73–79.)

Telestial

These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81–88, 103–6, 109.)"

The number 3 shows up a lot in scripture - in particular in reference in the plan of salvation. The symbolism is the Sun, the Moon and the stars - or as given following Noah in his 3 sons which carry the three titles in their seed of:

1. the covenant children of God

2. the gentiles

3. Infidels.

I would submit that before we come to earth heaven was divided into 3 parts and as we see from scripture mankind is divided into 3 parts and following the final judgment man will be divided into 3 kingdoms. The reason that the number 3 keeps showing up is explained in Ecc. 1:9.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

The number 3 shows up a lot in scripture - in particular in reference in the plan of salvation. The symbolism is the Sun, the Moon and the stars - or as given following Noah in his 3 sons which carry the three titles in their seed of:

1. the covenant children of God

2. the gentiles

3. Infidels.

I would submit that before we come to earth heaven was divided into 3 parts and as we see from scripture mankind is divided into 3 parts and following the final judgment man will be divided into 3 kingdoms. The reason that the number 3 keeps showing up is explained in Ecc. 1:9.

The Traveler

I am not arguing against the number three thing, I agree. I was just explaining that man's view doesn't oppose the number 3, just that it falls short of completing the process, like counting the numbers 1, then 2 then 3. When I get to number 2 that doesn't mean that three is not possible, it doesn't argue against that possibility. So, man's religious view is not opposite of the idea of three, just short sighted.

Likewise, God seeing the full view of the plan can call the three divisions before they occur even though we may still be on the one or the two count at the moment. Thus, the Ecclesiastes reference for God is absolutely true, this division of the pie has been done before.

The three parts could also be; 1. Those that do not keep the first estate, 2. Those that keep the first estate but not the second, and 3. Those that keep both the first and the second estate. After the first cut, there are only two pieces (those that were cast out and those that kept their first estate) but with the intention and foreknowledge of having a total of three divisions when the dividing process is done.