Signs of the times...

[carlimac]

I've been reading a little bit of a book on this topic (Signs of the Times) and want to focus on two prophecies. 1) that the Constitution will hang by a thread and that the Lord's people (assuming members of the LDS Church as well as other who are God-fearing) will save it from destruction. And 2) all the natural disasters and their causes

1- Are we there yet? President Benson stated that this prophecy wouldn't necessarily be fulfilled in Washington. Whew! That takes away the necessity for me to even refer to the chances of a certain member of our faith winning the election Tues. which is a good thing since we can't talk about that here anyway. But my question is: Do you see conditions in our country right now reflecting that "hanging by a thread" metaphor?

I'll get back to you on #2. My family needs the computer to skype our daughter in IN right now.

[Wingnut]

#1 refers to the White Horse Prophecy, which the Church has officially stated is not doctrinal.

[carlimac]

#1 refers to the White Horse Prophecy, which the Church has officially stated is not doctrinal.

Whether it's "doctrinal" or not, it (not necessarily the white horse part of it but the falling apart of our country) was said many times by Joseph Smith and reiterated by Brigham Young and many other church leaders since. I couldn't find anything specific by prophets since President Benson but Dallin Oaks has referred to the unravelling of the Constitution.

So do you believe that if it's not "doctrinal" it might not happen? Or does it mean we don't have to believe it?

We most definitely see signs of it happpening right now. My question is, are things (meaning the disregard of our freedoms ) as bad as they're going to get or can we expect it to get worse before they get better? Or are they expected to actually get better before Christ comes?

[carlimac]

Ok, the other question. I'm trying to avoid a political discussion. My questions are more along the lines of seeing prophecy fulfilled and what we have to look forward to.

There are all kinds of debates about whether global warming is a real thing or not. OK, I think there are some elements of truth to it. I think what we do as inhabitants on this earth does have an effect on the climate changes, albeit maybe to a smaller degree that some scientists want us to believe.

So despite what we do that affects the environment for better or worse, aren't the changes in weather something prophecied about and can we really do anything to stop it from happening? Isn't it partially due to the earth growing older?

Another sort of related question: Does anyone believe that God sends these hurricanes for a reason, or are they all due to this scientific climate change that we are supposedly bringing on ourselves?

Thoughts?

Edited November 5, 2012 by carlimac

[Guest SquidMom]

There are lots of arguments either. Personally, I don't think God says to Himself, "Hmmm... These people need a hurrican... Here." I think it's the natural effect of what we are doing to the planet. Also, as bad as we are, I think we have a long way to go before He decides to 'shut us down.' Someone told me that one of the prophets said that the 'end of the world' will not happen in our generation, or our children's. Can't quote it, so feel free to look it up. That's just what I heard....

[SanctitasDeo]

Honestly, my impression of Sandy is that it is a normal natural storm. I don't think that God sends specific hurricanes to specific places either (although if one showed up in Montana, I might be willing to rethink that ). I don't see the connection to climate change, either, since we have had plenty of the same kinds of storm in that same places over the last century. Doesn't mean that weather patterns aren't changing, just that this storm was not evidence of that.

I expect things to get worse before Christ comes. However, I think things will get better before they get worse. I don't think he is coming soon enough for this to be the beginning of the end.

[carlimac]

Honestly, my impression of Sandy is that it is a normal natural storm. I don't think that God sends specific hurricanes to specific places either (although if one showed up in Montana, I might be willing to rethink that ). I don't see the connection to climate change, either, since we have had plenty of the same kinds of storm in that same places over the last century. Doesn't mean that weather patterns aren't changing, just that this storm was not evidence of that.

I expect things to get worse before Christ comes. However, I think things will get better before they get worse. I don't think he is coming soon enough for this to be the beginning of the end.

I guess since "no man knoweth" all we can do is speculate. By the way, i tend to agree with you but I know others who beg to differ and do it vociferously and offensively at times.

[Guest]

Climate is cyclical in nature. Therefore, it is constantly changing. Man does not have to be present on earth for this cycle to continue. The fate of the earth is dependent on the sun. The sun is not just a giant orb in the sky, constant, unchanging. The sun is going through its own life cycle.

So, there is no hard evidence that points to man being the cause of climate change. But that doesn't mean that we don't need to be good stewards. Our natural resources are not infinite and the circle of life puts man right in the middle of it.

[mrmarklin]

In reality, we have been told by all modern prophets that the last days are here. I don't really buy into the idea of the White Horse prophecy because of the necessity of the strength of the USA and Western Europe needed to fulfil God's purposes. Europe is much more socialistic than the US by almost any measure, and I can assure you that people there feel totally free by and large.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Eowyn
political candidate mentioned

[Martain]

D&C 88:86-90

86 Abide ye in the liberty wherewith ye are made free; entangle not yourselves in sin, but let your hands be clean, until the Lord comes.

87 For not many days hence and the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig tree.

88 And after your testimony cometh wrath and indignation upon the people.

89 For after your testimony cometh the testimony of earthquakes, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground and shall not be able to stand.

90 And also cometh the testimony of the voice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.

2 Nephi 6

14 And behold, according to the words of the prophet, the Messiah will set himself again the second time to recover them; wherefore, he will manifest himself unto them in power and great glory, unto the destruction of their enemies, when that day cometh when they shall believe in him; and none will he destroy that believe in him.

15 And they that believe not in him shall be destroyed, both by fire, and by tempest, and by earthquakes, and by bloodsheds, and by pestilence, and by famine. And they shall know that the Lord is God, the Holy One of Israel.

Reading the scriptures I learn that such natural disasters will only increase in frequency and fervency as we approach the second coming. As the world continues to increase in sin I see the Lords hand holding back the raging elements less and less. If the world will not listen to the testimony of the servants of the Lord, if the world will not listen to the testimony of the still small voice, then God will speak with the voice of thunder, tempest, famine and quake.

45 Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God. Ye have seen an angel, and he spake unto you; yea, ye have heard his voice from time to time; and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but ye were past feeling, that ye could not feel his words; wherefore, he has spoken unto you like unto the voice of thunder, which did cause the earth to shake as if it were to divide asunder.

Alma 32:13

13 And now, because ye are compelled to be humble blessed are ye; for a man sometimes, if he is compelled to be humble, seeketh repentance; and now surely, whosoever repenteth shall find mercy; and he that findeth mercy and endureth to the end the same shall be saved.

Helaman 11:12

4 O Lord, do not suffer that this people shall be destroyed by the sword; but O Lord, rather let there be a famine in the land, to stir them up in remembrance of the Lord their God, and perhaps they will repent and turn unto thee.

7 And it came to pass that the people saw that they were about to perish by famine, and they began to remember the Lord their God; and they began to remember the words of Nephi.

In regards to your questions regarding natural disasters and whether or not they will increase, read D&C 88 fully.

2 Nephi 28:17-19

17 But behold, if the inhabitants of the earth shall repent of their wickedness and abominations they shall not be destroyed, saith the Lord of Hosts.

18 But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof.

19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;

[carlimac]

What about all the non-sinners who are destroyed in these natural disasters? The rain falleth on the righteous and the wicked.

Maybe being "spared" if they (the sinners) repent means something other than not being hurt physically or killed in these calamaties. Maybe it refers more to our spiritual salvation. It actually is an outrageous thought that the ones killed are the sinners and that God is taking their lives. What about the young children?

Edited November 5, 2012 by carlimac

[mirkwood]

#1 refers to the White Horse Prophecy, which the Church has officially stated is not doctrinal.

The WHP (which you are correct is not doctrine) contains references to #1, but is far from the only source.

Yes, it will happen and I believe we are seeing that prophecy fulfilled. L. Tom Perry had this to say:

L. Tom Perry

God’s Hand in the Founding of America

New Era, Jul 1976, 45

Adapted from an address delivered on February 24, 1976, at BYU

“[There are]... prophecies concerning our great responsibilities to preserve that which we have been blessed with by God.

“.... I will point out to you special witnesses who have indicated our responsibilities to this land.

“First from Brigham Young, second president of the Church: “Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate [intact/kept sacred] by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, ‘The time will come when the destiny of this nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.’ It will be so.” (Journal of Discourses,7:15.)

“... John Taylor, third president of the Church: “When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States, the elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth, and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations.”(The Gospel Kingdom,Deseret Book Co., 1943, p. 219.) ...

“A final witness is from George Q. Cannon, former member of the First Presidency, who said that “the day will come when the Constitution and free government under it will be sustained and preserved by this people.”(JD,23:104.)

“Now, I declare to you that if we are not in the beginning stages of the fulfillment of this prophecy, we are at least in the stages where we are preparing for its fulfillment.”

[mirkwood]

Said Elder Packer recently: “If 9/11 (September 11, 2001) was a wake-up call, then the earthquake and tsunami in Southeast Asia (on December 26, 2004), was a kick out of bed. We need to pay attention to the signs of the times.” (Boyd K. Packer, meeting of the Twelve and the Seventy, January 11, 2005).

I pulled this statement out of this talk:

LDSBC - Be Not Terrified but Believing

Right after the Tsunami in Dec. 2004 - in January of 2005, Elder Eyring gave a talk up at BYU – Idaho on Jan. 25th entitled “Raise The Bar” – in which he spoke of the great need and importance for us to be very close to the Holy Ghost and how we would need that guidance in the days ahead. He said in his talk that he had a totally different message prepared, but was awaken in the middle of the night and told by the Spirit to speak about the Tsunami and the tribulations that were coming and our need to be close to the Spirit and to “raise the bar” of our Spirituality.

He also said this:

“The giant earthquake, and the tsunami it sent crashing into the coasts around the Indian Ocean, is just the beginning and a part of what is to come, terrible as it was. You remember the words from the Doctrine & Covenants which now seem so accurate: (he quotes D&C 88: 88-91)…

Fear shall come upon all people. But you and I know that the Lord has prepared places of safety to which He is eager to guide us…. It will be our choice whether or not to move up or stay where we are. But the Lord will invite and guide us upward by the direction of the Holy Ghost….

I did not plan to speak to you about the hard times that are ahead and they are real, and they are coming…”

Elder Henry B. Eyring

Edited November 5, 2012 by mirkwood

[Wingnut]

What about all the non-sinners who are destroyed in these natural disasters?

No such thing.

[Guest SquidMom]

No such thing.

Except the children.

[mnn727]

Another sort of related question: Does anyone believe that God sends these hurricanes for a reason, or are they all due to this scientific climate change that we are supposedly bringing on ourselves?

Hurricanes are natures way of moving hot air away from the equatorial regions. Its a natural phenomenon.

Gods not up there with a Celestial whisk.

[Wingnut]

Gods not up there with a Celestial whisk.

Now that's an interesting visual. Lol.

[carlimac]

No such thing.

I think you know what I mean.

[carlimac]

Hurricanes are natures way of moving hot air away from the equatorial regions. Its a natural phenomenon.

Gods not up there with a Celestial whisk.

You don't believe God could control these things if He wanted to?

[SanctitasDeo]

That is not what he said.

Also, God does not have to be actively controlling them for the disasters to be signs of the times.

[mordorbund]

Do the scriptures actually say these natural phenomena will increase? or simply that they will be, and we should use their existence as reminders?

[lds2]

There are lots of arguments either. Personally, I don't think God says to Himself, "Hmmm... These people need a hurrican... Here." I think it's the natural effect of what we are doing to the planet. Also, as bad as we are, I think we have a long way to go before He decides to 'shut us down.' Someone told me that one of the prophets said that the 'end of the world' will not happen in our generation, or our children's. Can't quote it, so feel free to look it up. That's just what I heard....

President Packer said that IF we take the Holy Spirit as our guide in our lives and seek Him always we can expect to see our grandchildren grow up and we will be protected. To me it means more that we will make it through difficult times, not that there won't be any. He also said that we are heading into a time of increased responsibility where we won't be leading the lives of leisure that we are used to in a different talk. I don't have time to look them up but I can later if you want.

[lds2]

President Eyring said that the tsunami (several years ago now) was a part and a beginning of what was to come. That to me means that it will be different from what we have already experienced...

There are definitely quite a few quotes regarding "difficult days lie ahead" and that we are in "perilous times" and a "time of sorrow" from various Church leaders in recent years.

I believe the BOM was given to us for our day and one of the things that I get from that is the repeated cycle of what happens when people turn away from God. There is even a greater warning for those that live on the American continent regarding when they become "ripe" in iniquity. I know that our society could be become much more wicked...I believe that judgements will come upon the people when they become ripe and start severely persecuting and even killing the prophets (e.g. leaders and missionaries.)

A few things we do expect from scripture in the future is a "desolating plague" and a "hailstorm" that destroys the worlds crops. I do not believe we have seen these things yet.

It is interesting to see the charts showing how earthquakes have increased in number and magnitude in recent years. Particularly, it is unusual to see so many record breaking 9 earthquakes so close together.

[lds2]

This is the second part of a talk that talks about increasing calamities in the last days...also about the several appearances that will encompass the second coming of Jesus Christ

!