Does forgiveness mean the pain or grief is gone?

[classylady]

My husband and I had a discussion about forgiveness the other night. He feels that once we have forgiven someone for a wrong, then the pain we feel over the deed will be gone. Also, I've heard it said that many can hold grudges, but it takes someone with character to forgive. When forgiveness is given, you release yourself from a painful burden. Forgiveness doesn't mean the events were okay, and it doesn't mean the person who did it to you should still be welcomed in your life. It just means you now have peace with the pain, and are ready to let it go.

One example in my life: when my daughter died in a car accident, I almost immediately forgave the driver for falling asleep at the wheel. I feel no animosity or ill feeling towards the driver. I love the driver (a friend of my daughter's) and do not fault her for the accident. But, that doesn't take away the pain, sorrow, and grief I felt and still feel for the death of my daughter.

Another example, and this is where my husband and I disagree: A beloved family member did a number of things to me, over the course of many years, that were very hurtful. I felt betrayed. I feel I have forgiven the family member, but I still feel pain and sorrow over the events. My husband says that if I have truly forgiven the family member, then I wouldn't feel pain over the events any longer. I admit, I still feel the need to discuss the events with my husband in trying to come to grips about the situation. Does that mean I haven't forgiven the family member if I still feel pain over the events, and still feel the need to discuss it?

[Backroads]

I do not believe forgiveness erases the pain or grief. We have been affected--that doesn't magically go away. In your case, you may have forgiven the other person, but are still dealing with the situation yourself.

[annewandering]

I do not believe forgiveness erases the pain or grief. We have been affected--that doesn't magically go away. In your case, you may have forgiven the other person, but are still dealing with the situation yourself.

I agree. The fall out of whatever happened still exists even with forgiveness. I think its even possible to be angry at the person but still forgive them. I am not sure how to explain that. I forgive a certain couple in my life but I dont like them because of what they did. I dont trust them. Still I dont wish them ill. I dont hope they go to hell over it. Since they are dead I have great hopes that they have learned and changed. I put their salvation on their heads where it belongs not on mine.

[Guest]

This is a really good question. So if someone hurt you and you still feel hurt and even angry, but you're not looking for retaliation and don't wish bad on them, can you still say you've forgiven them? I find myself in that position. I know that forgiveness doesn't mean trust, but does forgiveness mean absence of bad feelings?

[applepansy]

Not right away. But with time yes forgiveness does erase the pain and grief.

Forgiving allows the Atonement to work, which is what takes away the hurt.

[applepansy]

Yes, eventually forgiveness takes away the pain and grief. Forgiving allows the Atonement to work is really what heals. It takes time.

[Traveler]

Forgiveness by itself will reduce pain and suffering over what others have done to you - but only in understanding and believing that Jesus has taken up personally any remaining problems you have with the transgressions -- I believe that any lingering concerns is because of a lack of faith in Christ -- I believe it is because we are not yet ready to let him complete the processes. Forgiveness means letting go - completely.

The Traveler

[annewandering]

This is a really good question. So if someone hurt you and you still feel hurt and even angry, but you're not looking for retaliation and don't wish bad on them, can you still say you've forgiven them? I find myself in that position. I know that forgiveness doesn't mean trust, but does forgiveness mean absence of bad feelings?

I am thinking that over time those feelings of anger will lessen as Applepansy has said.

Ok I think I have it now. We forgive them for what they did. Now we have to deal with our unrighteous feelings. We need to repent of our unrighteous feelings. Nevertheless those are OUR sins to deal with and the original problem/sin is the other persons to deal with not ours. We forgive them, in part, by letting God be the one to do the forgiving and judging. It really has nothing to do with us. Then we deal with our own sin.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I don't think that forgiveness is a one size fits all or one answer for every situation kind of thing.

One example in my life: when my daughter died in a car accident, I almost immediately forgave the driver for falling asleep at the wheel. I feel no animosity or ill feeling towards the driver. I love the driver (a friend of my daughter's) and do not fault her for the accident. But, that doesn't take away the pain, sorrow, and grief I felt and still feel for the death of my daughter.

In this situation, I believe you have definately forgiven. You feel no anger towards the driver, but of course you still grieve for the loss of your daughter. I don't think anything can really take away the pain of losing a child except the resurrection.

Edited to Add: Chris Williams, the man who lost 1/2 of his family to a teenage drunk driver, would agree with you. I heard him speak at Time Out for Women and he said he forgave the teen while he was still in the car. . .and yet he still went through a period of grieving. And though he is remarried now, he still misses his wife and children.

Another example, and this is where my husband and I disagree: A beloved family member did a number of things to me, over the course of many years

This situation is more complicated, but I think again if you are not angry with the family member then you have forgiven.

I could be wrong, but I think forgiveness is about letting go of the anger. That is where it gets complicated though. In my situation, I have not forgiven the person who abused me. I feel like when I work through some of the pain, I can release the anger and then I can forgive. So your examples where you let go of the anger but still have pain, are really making me ponder it again. All I can say with surety is: it's complicated.

Edited November 6, 2012 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest SquidMom]

To forgive does not mean to forget. If someone broke into your house and stole everything precious to you, and you forgave them, would you be okay with letting them house sit for you? I don't think so. Just because you have forgiven someone in your heart, does not mean that all is well between you from there on out. Trust has been broken, and must be rebuilt over a period of time. It doesn't make you friends again, it doesn't make what happened suddenly okay. You may feel no ill will towards them, but that doesn't mean you have to like them.

Especially in cases of some type of abuse, I don't believe the pain and suffering of the event goes away because of forgiveness, only the burden of hatred on our hearts. A person still has emotional and physical/ psychological damage to deal with.

Just because you don't wish someone to fall off a cliff, doesn't mean you should invite them to dinner.

[classylady]

So, if I no longer feel anger towards the person who has wronged me, but I still have issues because of the consequences of the actions, and still feel sorrow over it, have I truly forgiven?

[Backroads]

This is a really good question. So if someone hurt you and you still feel hurt and even angry, but you're not looking for retaliation and don't wish bad on them, can you still say you've forgiven them? I find myself in that position. I know that forgiveness doesn't mean trust, but does forgiveness mean absence of bad feelings?

Like applepansy said, I believe forgiveness will EVENTUALLY mean the absence of bad feelings. Then again, as anne pointed out, there are people she has forgiven but still doesn't trust or even like--and I feel the way about some people myself.

I've also heard is says that forgiveness can't always be immediate, that sometimes you must work a few things out (by yourself) before you can forgive them.

I see it as a process:

1. Bad thing happens.

2. You work to the point where, while you might blame someone for his share in the Bad thing (hey, you can't deny someone did something), you do not feel any obsession in your anger, frustration, sadness, etc. You've let go of all but what is necessarily still affecting your life and have made it possible for the other person to move on in his life. I do believe this counts as Forgiveness.

3. You partake of the Atonement until you have found total peace and feel that towards the other person. I think this is Forgiveness again.

[Backroads]

So, if I no longer feel anger towards the person who has wronged me, but I still have issues because of the consequences of the actions, and still feel sorrow over it, have I truly forgiven?

Whatever someone did is fact and has happened. I don't think you are required to be jumping up and down in joy about it. Are you obsessed in your feelings toward the other person?

[Irishcolleen]

There is a wonderful book called From Forgiven to Forgiving that explains what forgiveness is/isn't and how to forgive and how to seek forgiveness. Here are some points that might give insight:

1. Forgiveness, like love, is not an emotion. It is an action.

2. When we forgive we are making a promise to not remember the sin (just like God does, Psalm 103)- This means we don't dwell on it, we choose to replace active thoughts of others' sin with with thoughts of how much mercy we have received from God or any other Phil. 4:8 thought.

3.When we forgive we don't talk about the sin to others.

4. We don't talk about the sin to the person we have forgiven (unless you are pointing out a repeated pattern of sin that you are helping recognize or overcome)

5. We never use the sin against the offender. We don't use it as an excuse to seek our own vengeance.

Sometimes, we have to remind ourselves that we have chosen to forgive- and act that way. In time God will remove the sorrow and He will help us bear the consequences. Remember, Christ bore the eternal consequences of our sin on the cross. Remembering this will help gain a deeper appreciation for the Atonement.

[Backroads]

"Forgiveness is giving up all hope of a better past". Are you still stuck in "what might have been"?

[Seminarysnoozer]

My husband and I had a discussion about forgiveness the other night. He feels that once we have forgiven someone for a wrong, then the pain we feel over the deed will be gone. Also, I've heard it said that many can hold grudges, but it takes someone with character to forgive. When forgiveness is given, you release yourself from a painful burden. Forgiveness doesn't mean the events were okay, and it doesn't mean the person who did it to you should still be welcomed in your life. It just means you now have peace with the pain, and are ready to let it go.

One example in my life: when my daughter died in a car accident, I almost immediately forgave the driver for falling asleep at the wheel. I feel no animosity or ill feeling towards the driver. I love the driver (a friend of my daughter's) and do not fault her for the accident. But, that doesn't take away the pain, sorrow, and grief I felt and still feel for the death of my daughter.

Another example, and this is where my husband and I disagree: A beloved family member did a number of things to me, over the course of many years, that were very hurtful. I felt betrayed. I feel I have forgiven the family member, but I still feel pain and sorrow over the events. My husband says that if I have truly forgiven the family member, then I wouldn't feel pain over the events any longer. I admit, I still feel the need to discuss the events with my husband in trying to come to grips about the situation. Does that mean I haven't forgiven the family member if I still feel pain over the events, and still feel the need to discuss it?

I am sorry for the loss of your daughter.

I think in that example of your daughter, the difference is that it is not a pain directed towards anyone. That "anyone" has to also include God. In other words, we can't be mad at God either, for what we sometimes see as events that 'were not supposed to happen' as if we know a better master plan than God. I think the answer to your question has to be in relation to where the pain and sorrow is directed and what is the source of the pain and sorrow. If it is simply over the events then it has nothing to do with who the individuals are in the events. The pain and sorrow is not directed towards individuals. If it is directed towards individuals then there is a component of not forgiving and maybe even judging. Unless the pain towards those individuals is one of feeling bad that they have not repented and are pushing themselves away from God. That is something we all should be feeling sorrow over, when anyone around us isn't working towards salvation. This is the sorrow that Christ felt. The sorrow should lead towards the desire to help the person become more righteous and not involve any thoughts towards judgment or punishment. Once a person becomes self righteous and takes on the role of judge, jury and executioner, then Satan wins twice. Satan wants us to react with hate, revenge, a sense of serving "justice" and anger (that kind of pain) as opposed to Christs direction of turning the other cheek.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

So, if I no longer feel anger towards the person who has wronged me, but I still have issues because of the consequences of the actions, and still feel sorrow over it, have I truly forgiven?

I think so, absolutely yes. I believe that letting go of the anger is what forgiveness is about.

[classylady]

Whatever someone did is fact and has happened. I don't think you are required to be jumping up and down in joy about it. Are you obsessed in your feelings toward the other person?

I wouldn't say I'm obsessed in my feelings about the other person, but because the consequences of the actions still impact me today, I often feel the need to discuss it with my husband, who is my best friend and confidant, in order to come to terms about the actions/consequences.

I guess I want to know the whys and the wherefores, which may not be able to be answered. The past is history, and cannot be changed. But, I still feel the need to ask "why"? Not in an angry or accusing manner, but more of curiosity, and hopefully to be able to finally put it behind me, if possible, because it's part of my life and the life of my family member--our history, so to speak.

[Backroads]

I wouldn't say I'm obsessed in my feelings about the other person, but because the consequences of the actions still impact me today, I often feel the need to discuss it with my husband, who is my best friend and confidant, in order to come to terms about the actions/consequences.

I guess I want to know the whys and the wherefores, which may not be able to be answered. The past is history, and cannot be changed. But, I still feel the need to ask "why"? Not in an angry or accusing manner, but more of curiosity, and hopefully to be able to finally put it behind me, if possible, because it's part of my life and the life of my family member--our history, so to speak.

I think your feelings are natural, and it sounds like you are trying to figure out the whys and reasoning. In my view, it sounds like you are more considered with how YOU feel than on the anger toward the other person. You are still coming to terms with a tragedy, but it sounds like you have forgiven the other person.

In such cases, forgiveness--as important as it may be--might simply be part of a greater healing process. Just because you've forgiven doesn't mean you have to be completely healed of all the consequences of the tragedy. And perhaps that is how it's intended. We are all given the Atonement--which, at least for me, is darn near incomprehensible in all it does--as a method of healing, coming to Christ, etc. It INCLUDES forgiveness--Christ will forgive all sins of those who partake of the Atonement. For us, it may not be so easy. For us, forgiveness truly is PART of the Atonement. I don't think it was ever intended that Forgiveness would immediately make us feel better. Maybe it's more of a step we need to take to have the blessings of the Atonement. And not even the final step at that. Yet it can be difficult to focus on all else we need to do if we are still focused on our anger toward others.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Backroads

[NeuroTypical]

There is a wonderful book called From Forgiven to Forgiving that explains what forgiveness is/isn't and how to forgive and how to seek forgiveness.

Is this a book from an evangelical perspective Irishcolleen? I haven't read it, but I disagree with several points.

2. When we forgive we are making a promise to not remember the sin (just like God does, Psalm 103)- This means we don't dwell on it, we choose to replace active thoughts of others' sin with with thoughts of how much mercy we have received from God

Maybe that's best advice for many, even most sins - but not all. For example - if "not remembering" the sin entails putting you or loved ones in danger of harm, then of course God doesn't want us to promise to not remember. If you were abused by your husband yesterday, God wants you to forgive, but of course He doesn't want you to promise to not remember the sin, so you're surprised when he abuses you again tonight, and then tomorrow, and the next week.

Count your blessings while refusing to deal with an abusive spouse? I seriously doubt God wants us to do that.

3.When we forgive we don't talk about the sin to others.

Well, gossip is a horrible thing, and I'm pretty sure God doesn't usually want us following someone around telling everyone they meet about what they did. But again - the cops arrested a child molestor - you were a witness or a victim - as a good Christian you've forgiven the perpetrator - it's time to go to court and testify against the person. God wants you to keep your mouth shut? Really? I'm thinking no.

We don't talk about the sin to the person we have forgiven (unless you are pointing out a repeated pattern of sin that you are helping recognize or overcome)

What if talking about it helps the other person? We Mormons believe that confession is a part of repenting. Sometimes confession can be done on one's knees. Sometimes confessing to church leaders and maybe the authorities is required. But sometimes the person who suffered because of your actions, is the best person to recieve your confession. Do you disagree?

Can't really confess to someone, if they won't talk to you because they're under the assumption that God doesn't want them to...

5. We never use the sin against the offender. We don't use it as an excuse to seek our own vengeance.

Again, if a serial rapist is on trial, and a conviction relies on your testimony, then if you keep your mouth shut, do you not bear a portion of the blame for his next ten victims? Sure, seeking vengence isn't a good thing. But we're talking protecting innocent people. We're talking helping an offender by putting a stop to their offending.

I don't think I'm a fan of this book.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Irishcolleen]

Is this a book from an evangelical perspective Irishcolleen? I haven't read it, but I disagree with several points.

Maybe that's best advice for many, even most sins - but not all. For example - if "not remembering" the sin entails putting you or loved ones in danger of harm, then of course God doesn't want us to promise to not remember. If you were abused by your husband yesterday, God wants you to forgive, but of course He doesn't want you to promise to not remember the sin, so you're surprised when he abuses you again tonight, and then tomorrow, and the next week.

Count your blessings while refusing to deal with an abusive spouse? I seriously doubt God wants us to do that.

I believe God wants you to forgive an abusive spouse, but He also wants the abuser's sorry butt in prison or far away from those he abused. The wife of an abuser needs to forgive, but she also needs to take steps to remove herself and her children from an abusive situation.

Well, gossip is a horrible thing, and I'm pretty sure God doesn't usually want us following someone around telling everyone they meet about what they did. But again - the cops arrested a child molestor - you were a witness or a victim - as a good Christian you've forgiven the perpetrator - it's time to go to court and testify against the person. God wants you to keep your mouth shut? Really? I'm thinking no.

Jesus also said we are to obey those in authority over us. If this means testifying in court, of course you testify. Then it is up to the authorities to punish the abuser- not us.

What if talking about it helps the other person? We Mormons believe that confession is a part of repenting. Sometimes confession can be done on one's knees. Sometimes confessing to church leaders and maybe the authorities is required. But sometimes the person who suffered because of your actions, is the best person to recieve your confession. Do you disagree?

Can't really confess to someone, if they won't talk to you because they're under the assumption that God doesn't want them to...

Of course confession is important! Did I say it wasn't????? If a person has confessed, and you have forgiven there is no need to bring the sins up again. God is our example- He removes our sins as far as the east is from the west. (Ps103)

Again, if a serial rapist is on trial, and a conviction relies on your testimony, then if you keep your mouth shut, do you not bear a portion of the blame for his next ten victims? Sure, seeking vengence isn't a good thing. But we're talking protecting innocent people. We're talking helping an offender by putting a stop to their offending.

I don't think I'm a fan of this book.

Can you see the difference between obtaining justice and seeking vengeance? Seeking justice is complying with authorities in order to have an offender pay for their crimes. Seeking vengeance is taking the authority into your own hands- for instance, instead of testifying in court you kill the offender yourself instead of letting the authorities deal with meeting out justice.

I take these words of God seriously. He had them recorded for a reason.

Romans 14-

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

God considers all sin offensive. What if He decided to bring your sin up before you constantly? What if He decided to make an example of your sins, going out of His way to let everyone know how you have sinned? What if He decided to give you justice and not mercy? He wouldn't be a forgiving God would He?

Also, God has laid out instructions for dealing with a person who sins against us in Matthew 18. We confront a person to give them the opportunity to seek forgiveness. If they do- we can seek to restore the relationship. If they refuse to repent we bring it to a higher authority. If they still refuse to repent, we take it to the church body. If they still refuse to repent, we withdraw our fellowship from them. But, even then we need to forgive.

Also He has said in Matthew 6:14-15 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Edited November 7, 2012 by Irishcolleen

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Irishcolleen,

So, you think that sometimes it is appropriate for a Christian to remember the sin, keep the sin in active thoughts, talk about the sin to others, talk about the sin to the person we have forgiven, and use the sin against the offender?

If you and that book you are recommending do, then I guess I'm confused about your original list. Maybe you didn't mean them to apply in every case?

Of course confession is important! Did I say it wasn't?????

No, but you did say "We don't talk about the sin to the person we have forgiven (unless you are pointing out a repeated pattern of sin that you are helping recognize or overcome)" If I forgive quicker than the person confesses, that would seem to indicate that I shouldn't talk to them about it. A proposition with which I do not agree.

Can you see the difference between obtaining justice and seeking vengeance? Seeking justice is complying with authorities in order to have an offender pay for their crimes. Seeking vengeance is taking the authority into your own hands- for instance, instead of testifying in court you kill the offender yourself instead of letting the authorities deal with meeting out justice.

Yes, I know the difference. That's why I was confused when you recommended a book that supposedly gives blanket statements about forgeting sin and not talk about it to anyone.

What if He decided to bring your sin up before you constantly? What if He decided to make an example of your sins, going out of His way to let everyone know how you have sinned? What if He decided to give you justice and not mercy? He wouldn't be a forgiving God would He?

I wouldn't like it. I don't understand why you asked these questions though. If you think I was advocating any of that, you are mistaken, and a quick re-read of my earlier post should make that clear. Edited November 7, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Irishcolleen]

Hi Irishcolleen,

So, you think that sometimes it is appropriate for a Christian to remember the sin, keep the sin in active thoughts, talk about the sin to others, talk about the sin to the person we have forgiven, and use the sin against the offender?

If you and that book you are recommending do, then I guess I'm confused about your original list. Maybe you didn't mean them to apply in every case?

No, but you did say "We don't talk about the sin to the person we have forgiven (unless you are pointing out a repeated pattern of sin that you are helping recognize or overcome)" If I forgive quicker than the person confesses, that would seem to indicate that I shouldn't talk to them about it. A proposition with which I do not agree.

Yes, I know the difference. That's why I was confused when you recommended a book that supposedly gives blanket statements about forgeting sin and not talk about it to anyone.

I wouldn't like it. I don't understand why you asked these questions though. If you think I was advocating any of that, you are mistaken, and a quick re-read of my earlier post should make that clear.

To address every situation, I would have to rewrite the whole book in a long post. Not very practical, eh? The original poster wasn't talking about domestic violence.

The reason I asked you those questions is that if you believe God is our example (as I am sure you do) then I assume you would want to follow the example of how He forgives rather than following our fleshly ideas of forgiveness.

As clarification- Before you forgive it is acceptable to confront the sinner about their sin, to give them the opportunity to seek forgiveness, as outlined in Matthew 18.

[slamjet]

My .02... Because I can...

Forgiveness is step one, not the whole thing nor the end-all. It's a step in the process of repairing our heart and soul by humbling ourselves to be able to have the Lord lift the pain from us. But before the pain is take away, one needs to learn that we need to ask God to not help us deal with, but to take it or lift the pain from us.

The atonement is not only about us receiving forgiveness for our own sins, but for us to receive healing from our own sins, the sins of others and all the other pains of mortality. This healing is to take away the pain, not learn to cope with it. This is the great promise, gift and miracle of the atonement.

At least that's been my experience.

[NeuroTypical]

I hate to be a stickler here, but it's just that I've encountered more than my share of Christians (LDS or otherwise) who have some pretty horrible ideas about forgiveness meaning they need to be an uncomplaining door mat, or something that keeps them from protecting innocents from bad guys. Blanket statements like you made in your original list, about not remembering and not talking about sin, and "never using the sin against the offender" would seem to support such misunderstandings.

I know folks damaged by this line of thinking - unprotected by parents who were off forgetting sin instead of acting like parents - taught that if they didn't allow perpetrators access to future victims, it meant they were going against God's wishes and had not forgiven. It's a bit of a personal quest to speak out against such notions when I encounter them. Thank you for clarifying - I'm sure you don't believe such things.