Who is God?

[pam]

No, forgiveness of sins is not something we can grant anyone. We can forgive someone for what they've done to us, but only God can forgive them of their sins. So, in other words, even if I forgive the whole day long, the sin doesn't go away unless God forgives it.

Exactly the point I was leading to in my post prior to yours. Thank you.

[Vort]

Lets reconsider what is meant by "cleansed from sin". Doesn't it mean that God will permit us to enter his presence despite us having committed sin?

No, it very clearly does not. The scriptures teach unambiguously that God cannot tolerate sin in the least degree. They also teach that "salvation in sin" is an oxymoron, a clash of definitions, because salvation means being sinless.

[Vort]

No, forgiveness of sins is not something we can grant anyone. We can forgive someone for what they've done to us, but only God can forgive them of their sins. So, in other words, even if I forgive the whole day long, the sin doesn't go away unless God forgives it.

From a definitional standpoint, I think you're right, but I think this is also exactly what she meant: We can forgive one another for our trespasses.

[pam]

From a definitional standpoint, I think you're right, but I think this is also exactly what she meant: We can forgive one another for our trespasses.

But yet I think Volgadon and myself were reading into it that if we forgive then they are forgiven completely. Perhaps I am misunderstanding her meaning but that is the way I took her explanation.

[Christyba75]

Maybe we need to start even more basic. Someone please provide a definition of "sin", then we can discuss.

[Vort]

Maybe we need to start even more basic. Someone please provide a definition of "sin", then we can discuss.

Sin is willful and conscious transgression of God's laws.

[pam]

The definition of sin according to lds.org:

To commit sin is to willfully disobey God's commandments or to fail to act righteously despite a knowledge of the truth (see James 4:17).

[volgadon]

But yet I think Volgadon and myself were reading into it that if we forgive then they are forgiven completely. Perhaps I am misunderstanding her meaning but that is the way I took her explanation.

That is exactly how I understood it.

[pam]

Thanks Volgadon and forgive me if I was speaking or thinking for you. :)

[volgadon]

Thanks Volgadon and forgive me if I was speaking or thinking for you. :)

You are welcome to do so. If I object I'll state it.

[Christyba75]

So a sin is only a sin if its against a God's will. It's doing something he doesn't want you to do. Got it. How does God "cleanse" me of sin? Does he actually do something to me physically, as the word "cleanse" implies? No. No actual cleansing. It's a metaphor. He negates the effects of the sin. I stole some food. I did it. It happened. There's no changing that fact. It happened. I then did a bunch of things that are called "repentance". I really repented after I really sinned. God lets me go to heaven despite me having sinned. He just does. There is no "cleansing process." He just doesn't hold the sin against me because I did those things we call repentance which includes me changing my attitude and all that other stuff.

Change the wording and this is just like what I may do of my husband told me that he'd kissed another woman. He repents, I forgive him, and all's good.

Cleansing from sin is not some mystical process. It's just forgiving after the individual does what's expected of his after screwing up.

[pam]

Change the wording and this is just like what I may do of my husband told me that he'd kissed another woman. He repents, I forgive him, and all's good.

Let me get a clarification so I more fully understand you. When you say he repents..who is he repenting to?

[Christyba75]

Let me get a clarification so I more fully understand you. When you say he repents..who is he repenting to?

We "repent of" and "confess to". I should have said that my husband confesses to me, promises to never do it again, feels contrite and sorrowful, and understands how he violated my trust and our marriage.

Main Entry: 1re·pent

Pronunciation: \ri-ˈpent\

Function: verb

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French repentir, from Medieval Latin repoenitēre, from Latin re- + Late Latin poenitēre to feel regret, alteration of Latin paenitēre — more at penitent

Date: 14th century

intransitive verb

1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life

2 a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mind

transitive verb

1 : to cause to feel regret or contrition

2 : to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for

— re·pent·er noun

Edited December 9, 2012 by Christyba75

[pam]

So what you are saying is...as long as he confesses to you he is forgiven by God as well?

[Christyba75]

No.

I'm comparing the similarities of two scenarios: my husband receiving forgiveness from me, and me receiving forgiveness from God. I'm proposing that both forgiveness mechanisms are identical--that the act of forgiving is just an act of will, not a physical act. I believe that God forgiving us is an act of his will, not an actual cleansing. And that when we each become gods, we will use the same mechanism of forgiveness that we now have. That there is not some super-advanced forgiveness technique.

[Vort]

So a sin is only a sin if its against a God's will.

Well, if it's against the God's will. Not just any old god.

It's doing something he doesn't want you to do. Got it.

No, you don't. You need to read the definitions given much more closely. It is not merely "doing something he doesn't want you to do." Rather, it is the willful and intentional violation of God's commandments.

How does God "cleanse" me of sin?

Questions of mechanics, yet again. Please understand: We do not know God's mechanics. That does not mean they aren't real, just that they are beyond us.

Does he actually do something to me physically, as the word "cleanse" implies? No. No actual cleansing.

How do you know this? By what authority do you make this judgment?

I believe you are mistaken. I think there is indeed a physical element to cleansing. In fact, the scriptures are quite clear and even specific about this.

It's a metaphor.

It is literal.

He negates the effects of the sin. I stole some food. I did it. It happened. There's no changing that fact. It happened. I then did a bunch of things that are called "repentance". I really repented after I really sinned. God lets me go to heaven despite me having sinned. He just does.

So that's what you think this is all about? "Will God let me into heaven?"

That is a very naive, over-simplified, non-LDS way of thinking about these issues.

There is no "cleansing process."

How can you possibly know this? By what authority, logic, or reason do you make such a pronouncement?

Yes, there is a cleansing process. The fact that you don't know what that process is or what it entails does not in any possible degree suggest it doesn't exist. It does.

Change the wording and this is just like what I may do of my husband told me that he'd kissed another woman. He repents, I forgive him, and all's good.

Christy, do you even understand the point that pam and volgadon were making?

Cleansing from sin is not some mystical process. It's just forgiving after the individual does what's expected of his after screwing up.

No, it is not. It is much more than this.

[pam]

No.

I'm comparing the similarities of two scenarios: my husband receiving forgiveness from me, and me receiving forgiveness from God. I'm proposing that both forgiveness mechanisms are identical--that the act of forgiving is just an act of will, not a physical act. I believe that God forgiving us is an act of his will, not an actual cleansing. And that when we each become gods, we will use the same mechanism of forgiveness that we now have. That there is not some super-advanced forgiveness technique.

Let me rephrase the question since you didn't exactly answer mine. You rather danced around it.

Let's say your husband commits adultery. He confesses to you and you forgive him. Do you then think he is forgiven by God since he confessed to you and you forgave him?

[Dravin]

It seems to me, Christy, that you're leading to the Atonement not being necessary or even possessing of any power, that forgiveness is possible with out it, it's just a question of God deciding, "Yeah, I'll forgive you." So we've gone from the Atonement of Jesus Christ being powerful and necessarily to being what exactly?

[Christyba75]

It seems to me, Christy, that you're leading to the Atonement not being necessary or even possessing of any power, that forgiveness is possible with out it, it's just a question of God deciding, "Yeah, I'll forgive you." So we've gone from the Atonement of Jesus Christ being powerful and necessarily to being what exactly?

So many things to address. I'll do my best.

I do believe that the atonement is a necessary power. I can speculate how that power works, but I won't here and now. But can we all agree that we don't know exactly how that "power" works? We just know the effects and that it is necessary, but not why. I have some thoughts on the mechanics (yes, I am on this forum to speculate on mechanics), but I'm going to hold this one back for now.

[Christyba75]

Let me rephrase the question since you didn't exactly answer mine. You rather danced around it.

Let's say your husband commits adultery. He confesses to you and you forgive him. Do you then think he is forgiven by God since he confessed to you and you forgave him?

I didn't dance around the question. I ignored it. It wasn't relevant to the topic that I started. But to answer your question: no, if he wants forgiveness from God he needs to seek forgiveness from God by following God's requirements.

[Connie]

We just know the effects and that it is necessary, but not why.

Actually, LDS doctrine is pretty clear about why we need the atonment.

[pam]

I didn't dance around the question. I ignored it. It wasn't relevant to the topic that I started. But to answer your question: no, if he wants forgiveness from God he needs to seek forgiveness from God by following God's requirements.

Actually it was relevant to how the conversation or discussion was going. But if you choose to ignore questions which are part of the discussion and only focus on what YOU want to discuss..then it's futile to have any kind of a discussion.

[Christyba75]

Questions of mechanics, yet again. Please understand: We do not know God's mechanics. That does not mean they aren't real, just that they are beyond us.

Yes, I am on this forum to discuss mechanics. If you don't want to, you don't have to. I don't know the mechanics, I'm just suggesting some. I don't accept that they are unknowable and beyond us. They may be, but I don't think they have to be. If you don't want to join me in discussing possible mechanics then don't.

I think there is indeed a physical element to cleansing. In fact, the scriptures are quite clear and even specific about this.

When Paul says we are buried with Christ in baptism (Rom 6:4), and we go into the water, are you suggesting that we actually die and that as we come up out of the water we are literally born again and that something physical (sin) is absorbed into the water of the font? Or maybe death, burial, and cleansing and metaphors to help us understand better.

How can you possibly know this? By what authority, logic, or reason do you make such a pronouncement?

Authority? None.

Logic and reason? That's exactly what I'm here proposing: logic and reason. Not magical thinking.

[volgadon]

Metaphor? Not quite. A symbol, yes, but symbols can be an actual, physical occurence. Turning to a non-LDS source, the late Martin Buber (On the Bible, p. 53), there is the following observation on the meaning of signs in the Bible.

"It is a symbolization, a sensory presentation of a manifested truth, a perceptible reality which, no matter whether it is more or less "wondrous," always reminds people once again of that truth."

Same goes for baptism, and, indeed, the cleansing power of the atonement. As Buber goes on to say, "What is now only existent in words will then take on real existence."

[estradling75]

Logic and reason? That's exactly what I'm here proposing: logic and reason. Not magical thinking.

You keep harping on logic and reason... Which makes me think you don't actually understand what they are. That you think they mean something else (aka scientific) which would also mean you might not realize how offensive you might be coming across when you infer, imply, or other wise state that we are not being logical or rational.

Something is logical and rational if it makes sense based on the underlying assumptions. This underlying assumptions are absolutely critical for determining if something is logical or rational. Let me give an example two actions to determine if they are logical or rational.

I picked up a can of green paint.

I fixed a toaster.

Which of the two actions is rational, logical? And which is the irrational illogical action? You can't tell with out me letting you know what the underlying assumptions are. If I say that I wanted to paint something then the first action given is logical and rational, and the second one is not, or at least in no way supports the stated goal. Whereas if I say that I wanted to make some toast then the reverse is true.

Thus we must understand the underlying assumptions or goals before we can judge any kind of action on if it is rational.

Now you've come to and LDS forum and claim to be a member yourself so you should understand the underlying assumptions we have here. We accept that God has and is currently speaking to us, and that God is telling us how to find out more about him. His methods are faith, prayer, service etc. This is the underlying assumption here, and therefore talking about understanding God thought the method we believe he has set up for us to do so is the definition of being logical and rational.

Now for you to come in here and say you want to find a different path to know God is irrational and illogical from the underlying assumption we have. What you appear to really be trying to do is change the underlying assumption to God exists and is scientifically provable.

But to say that we are not logical or rational when we are looking to paint a room while you are demanding toast is very poor form.