Sacrament Meeting and little kids.......

[kevieb]

I have never heard the term "mormon corridor" either---and I Have lived in southern idaho for 40 years. My hubby and i have 11 children between the two of us. We moved into our last ward with 2 teenagers, a 6yr old, a 4 yr old, and a 6 week old baby---and proceeded to have 6 more children, including a set of twins, over the next 14 years. We usually sat on the front row, because that was the only seat we could guarantee to get----I always wanted to sit in the back with all my little ones, but it seems like the older people in the ward usually got there first. My husband always told me to give it up, when I complained about wanting to be able to sit in the back.

We always tried to take our kids out when they were too noisy. I spent alot of time parading from the front of the chapel to the back doors to get out with a noisy child, or a baby that needed nursing or changing.

I had one child that would wander---but she was VERY quiet---so I let her wander---she was a very independent and stubborn child, and I knew if i tried to contain her, all heck would break loose. I figured a quiet wandering child was better than a screaming child---I've always figured there were probably people who didn't approve---but if I ever said anything, people would always tell me that my children were so well behaved---HA!

My second to last child has been hell-on-wheels since she was a toddler. She took off running in the chapel once---and all I could do was watch. I knew if I went after her, she would think it was a game----I watcher her run to the back--then across the back to the other side--up to the front--then back to the back again---halfway across the back, an older woman stuck out her arm and grabbed her around the waist. Once she had her caught---I got up and went back to get her. I was greatful that someone caught her for me.

It was one of those times when you are just frozen in place, knowing that any action on your part at the moment will only make things worse.

I managed to get the back row once---and someone from the bishopric mentioned something about our family not being there that day---because he couldn't see us in our usual place on the front row. He later told me he was glad I had sat on the back row because he said "we have people fighting with light sabers over that back row."

It was surprising how rude people could actually be over that back row. i sat down once, and left space for my family. Everyone knew how big our family was. A group of several older people came back, and all sat down together in the place I had waiting for my family---I could have spoken up--but I didn't.

The first time i sat on the back row, I got several comments---"are you sitting here?" I think they were shocked that I took "their place". Either that, or they were shocked that I wasn't on the front row.

I didn't keep up my fight for the back row up for very long--it just wasn't worth it. i used to tell my husband that we did a service at church---we kept everyone awake behind us.

I feel like we managed to keep our children relatively quiet during church--and we took them out if they were too disruptive. But, I can tell you, that with a lot of small children, sometimes it is better to offer to help young parents with their children than it is to sit back and watch them struggle.

[Bini]

It seems as though some individuals are taking personal offense to this thread. I think we're all on the same page here, in regards to, if your child or children are disruptive they should be removed if they ignore the past couple warnings. Isn't that decent and fair parenting? Does anyone disagree with this?

But, I can tell you, that with a lot of small children, sometimes it is better to offer to help young parents with their children than it is to sit back and watch them struggle.

Being thoughtful and courteous isn't bound by age group. It's the responsibility of the parents to kindly teach and reenforce "reverence" to their children. Kids aren't perfect, parents aren't perfect but boundaries must be made. As I said above, seems decent and fair to expect parents to remove children that have ignored several previous warnings of minding. With my daughter, if it's three strikes - you're out! I don't expect nor would I want other parents (or people in general) stepping in to manage my family. That said, if someone volunteers to help out with my 1.5 year old daughter - great - but I don't place that responsibility on you. She is my (and my husband's) responsibility. Most wards have speakers located in the foyer for those that cannot sit inside the chapel. I've sat there many times myself with my rambunctious daughter.

Addressing "lots of small/young rowdy children".. You still discipline. Doesn't matter if you have 1 child or 8 children, you teach them good guidelines of safety and social etiquette. You wouldn't throw your hands up in the air and disregard the importance of teaching ALL 8 of your kids to look both ways and hold hands before crossing the road. You'd keep teaching it and reenforcing its importance. Same applies for in a restaurant or cinema setting. If children (whatever age) cannot control themselves after multiple verbal promptings, it's not working, and option B must come into play.

[rayhale]

I’ve only been to my Ward for one week, the kids were restless, but not running around with their heads cut off, the chapel building is two stories high, the Relief Society room is right underneath the Primary Room, it is the room that is also used for Sunday School, it’s extremely difficult to listen to the teacher when you can hear the Primary piano and the foot stomps of the kids above you.

[kevieb]

Bini--I'm afraid I came across wrong. I didn't take offense to this thread at all--and my suggestion of offering to help came from my past experience, before my husband and I were married.

I was a divorced mother with two very young children. Since I lived with my parents, I usually had their help. When my parents were out of town, there was a particular woman---she was the mother of one of my good friends, and she would always step in and help me if I was having trouble handling my two little ones alone.

I was just throwing the suggestion of helping out there for people to consider.

We tried to take our children out as quickly as possible if they were being disruptive---and I definitely agree with you that it is the parents responsibility to teach their children reverence.

There was a lady in our ward who's two youngest children were the same age as my 3rd and (4th & 5th, twins) She would never take her children out when they were disruptive---and she had one that was so naughty. I remember her leaving church once--and he was running away from her--and she tried to get him to come back and said, "you don't want to do that." Obviously he did!!!!

No one could control this child in primary----I think they were somewhat afraid of him. A new woman moved into the ward who only had one older daughter--and was in the process of adopting a 2 year old.

this woman was kind---but she wouldn't tolerate any nonsense, either----for the first time, someone was able to control this boy. She was his primary teacher first, and then she lead the music---and she just did not tolerate his misbehavior.

I used to think the kid was a serial-killer in the making---but I am happy to say that he eventually grew up to be a pretty decent kid. (as far as I know)

We only have 4 children still at home, the youngest is 9, so we don't have a whole lot of behavior issues at church--but we still have to get after our kids occasionally to behave. It bothers me when someone lets their child go on for too long, making a fuss, before they take them out. Even though we had a lot of young children at one time, we didn't want to spoil the meeting for others if our children were fussy---unfortunately, at our new building, they don't have the speakers on in the foyer very often----so anyone who takes their child out doesn't get to hear the meeting very well.

We used to attend a ward where the speaker control was out in the foyer---sure made it nice to be able to hear the meeting---and adjust the sound when the other ward got out and was noisy as they were leaving.

I'm so sorry that I came across wrong!!

[Guest]

Do Catholics have a nursery during mass? My Lutheran friend's church offers nursery for kids up to age 3 or something.

No, there's no nursery at mass because children are baptized when they're babies and once you're baptized you are required to attend Church on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation - yes, even when you're only 2 weeks old.

Most Catholic churches are giant places (compared to a ward building) designed with lofty ceilings. The acoustics of the church are usually done so that the microphones boom throughout every corner of the church plus a big choir. This combination drowns out the combined little whimpering noises of a jillion little children. Other parishes who do not have this type of acoustics (and even those that do) have an area of the church for "those with small children" which is a section separated from the rest of the seating areas with a glass wall. If you have a small child, you don't need to take him there. You can join the rest of the crowd in the regular seating areas. But, at least, if your child is having that kind of a day where he is unusually loud, you can take him to the glassed-in area and still feel part of the mass.

When you have a gigantic primary like in the ward in Humble, Texas (with about 75 kids in primary almost half of which are in nursery), little short burst noises of little children combine to become just this general roar like the waves of the ocean. If you look at each and every kid singly, none of them produce a noise worthy of being taken out of the room.

In a regular Catholic parish in an area with young families in the Philippines, 100 children under 12 are not at all rare. Glassed-in seating areas are very rare. Yet, I have never experienced a time when the hum of the children take away from the solemnity of the mass. And no, you can't eat in a Catholic Church and toys and coloring books and such are frowned upon.

When I was growing up in the Philippines, the Catholic Churches are open churches because air conditioning is rare there. So, the parish Church where I grew up (and even the LDS Church) is designed so that the walls are lined with big open doorways separated by walls only wide enough to hold the pillars that hold up the lofty roof. So that, noise from the outside (traffic, playground, soccer field, people hanging out in church grounds) can easily drift into the church. But even with this, the acoustics of the church and the size of the choir is still able to keep the solemnity of the mass. Or maybe we've just become used to the wave of sound that it just becomes nothing but wallpaper. I'm fairly certain the mindset we are in when we enter the Church comes into play in keeping the solemnity of the mass as well. I've always felt this "hush" or "awe" when entering the parish Church. It's like walking into a world apart from the everyday world around us even when all the multitude of doors are wide open.

Edited January 7, 2013 by anatess

[EarlJibbs]

My advice. Try to remember why I am there. And that is to renew covenants with our Heavenly Father.

aside from that the rest of the day could go wrong, but I still would have participated in something miraculous.

I remember a conference talk given that parents should not always feel the need to get up and leave the chapel if their children start crying etc... I could not find it however. I do think though, that if it is going tobe a prolonged annoyance, you should find a way to remedy the situation, even if that is leaving to the foyer. I get to do that every week with my 2 year old. She simply needs a little room to run in a circle, and I still get to hear the talks from the foyer.

We used to have a child that would escape and play the organ. He was rather small so it was hard to see him before the organ started blaring... we called him the phantom of the chapel.

[mnn727]

My parents do this and have sat behind the deacons for years now..

That's our spot, we inherited it after the family that used to sit there moved out of the Ward.

Seriously though, there are less distractions up there (Front center row is used for a couple of deaf people we have that are signed to.)

Edited January 7, 2013 by mnn727

[idahommie]

Well ths week was no different. Different toddler playing the organ this week though. The isle became a playpen for 2 different families, people going to the podium to bare their testimony had to step over and around the crayons, kids and coloring books.

Having grown up in Idaho I have NEVER witnessed this before......We are currently living in Florida and I've never seen cameras come out in sacrament meeting either but it happens here......

Thanks to those that told me I need to gain a testimony, ya, I'll work on that.........we raised two children, neither acted this way in church(even as teenagers now all it takes is a look.........)

[LauraG]

I went through and re-read the thread, and didn't see anywhere where anyone said you needed to gain a testimony. The closest comment to that said something to the effect that it can be hard to tune out the noise, especially if your testimony isn't strong, which in a general way, is true. When we have a fullness of love in our hearts, we aren't as annoyed at the little things in life.

The crayons and coloring books DO need to be taken into the pew, because it is an escape hazard in case of fire or emergency to have them out in the aisle. That's a safety issue that could be mentioned over the pulpit, or directly to the parents in a private manner, without being the least bit offensive.

I've noticed in my life that the more annoyed I get, and the more I find faults in others, it seems to snowball. It becomes easier and easier to see shortcomings and to be irritated with everything around me.

I'm not defending bad behavior by little kids, or inattentive, unthoughtful parenting. However, I'm sure you can find a way to be less annoyed with that situation, and with all the thoughtful and supportive comments in this thread, if you want to.

[Bini]

Well ths week was no different. Different toddler playing the organ this week though. The isle became a playpen for 2 different families, people going to the podium to bare their testimony had to step over and around the crayons, kids and coloring books.

Having grown up in Idaho I have NEVER witnessed this before......We are currently living in Florida and I've never seen cameras come out in sacrament meeting either but it happens here......

Thanks to those that told me I need to gain a testimony, ya, I'll work on that.........we raised two children, neither acted this way in church(even as teenagers now all it takes is a look.........)

Who said you needed to gain a testimony???

[kevieb]

not saying this happened--but remember that sometimes people get sent private messages that no one else knows about.

[Vort]

not saying this happened--but remember that sometimes people get sent private messages that no one else knows about.

Fyi, the mods know all, and shamelessly peek in on "private" mail. They have even been known to ban people from the site based on nastiness written in "private" mails. So be warned. The mods are totally worse than Hitler. (But you didn't hear it from me...)

[pam]

Fyi, the mods know all, and shamelessly peek in on "private" mail. They have even been known to ban people from the site based on nastiness written in "private" mails. So be warned. The mods are totally worse than Hitler. (But you didn't hear it from me...)

Vort..forget to take your meds today?

[kevieb]

I remember a conference talk given that parents should not always feel the need to get up and leave the chapel if their children start crying etc... I could not find it however.

This is a quote from someone else's post---i just haven't figured out how to post a quote right, yet.

I found this comment really interesting because of a very unusual experience we had in our sacrament meeting years ago---when David B. Haite was still alive.

David B. Haite grew up in a small town about 30 miles from where I live. I think they had been restoring the old family home, or something, so he was in the area. For whatever reason, he chose our ward to attend for Sacrament meeting, so of course, he was asked to speak. I mentioned before the woman who would never take her children out when they were noisy---well, Elder Haite showed up at our meeting during the time this woman's child was a terror.

During his talk, and speaking from the pulpit, he said, "sounds like that little one needs to be taken out."

The woman got up and took her child out---fortunately, her husband was a member of the bishopric and she handled it gracefully. I just remember thinking about how she never took her child out and someone finally told her to.

My husband was the bishop's executive secretary at the time and we all went on a Bishopric party shortly after that. The Sacrament meeting with Elder Haite came up during conversation--and I was surprised at how the bishop's wife felt about how the situation had been handled. She had thought it was horrible---I can remember her using a play on his name and saying, "talk about Hate."

Obviously the story went around, and over the years I have heard several people talk about it---none of these people were in attendance at the meeting, they had just heard the story through who knows how many channels, so it was interesting to me to see what had happened to the original version over time, since I had actually been there when it happened.

The overall feeling was negative--similar to the bishop's wife's reaction. The first time I heard the story from someone, I told the woman that Elder Haite had spoken in a friendly voice when this event happened.

I don't believe Elder Haite was speaking at our ward on assignment from the church, and I think our ward was just picked at random for him to attend. I think the woman should have taken her child out on her own accord, realizing that people want to be able to hear the speaker---even if it wasn't a general authority.

fortunately, no permanent harm was done to this woman's feelings towards the church--it's too bad that people who were not there talk about it and give their version of what happened.

i just thought I would relate this story because i find it interesting to have heard an apostle tell someone her child needed to be taken out---and then to hear that there was a conference talk that said crying children don't always need to be taken out.

Obviously, even our leaders differ in their feelings about how things should be done.

I thought it was really cool that Elder Haite just showed up unannounced at our meeting--and at the time, i thought it was about time the lady was told to take her child out.

I had no idea the story would take on a life of it's own and that so many years later I would still hear versions of it.

[Guest DeborahC]

I agree that the woman should have taken the child out.

It's too bad she didn't have enough respect for the rest of the ward to do it without having to be told.

I notice some parents become deaf, apparently, to the distraction their children can be.

[Vort]

Vort..forget to take your meds today?

Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

For the record, I have no problem with the mods reading "private" mail. Though it kind of sucks that I have to come right out and say it.

[skippy740]

I can't read anyone's private messages. Only the Head Mods can do that.

As a side note, it's been a while since we've had any "love" spam going on!

[kevieb]

"love spam"? Is this a nice way of saying people have sent nasty messages?

[pam]

No not at all. It's messages like "Oh I saw your profile and I think you and I would be compatible. Can we exchange email messages and keep in touch?"

[kevieb]

Has there been a lot of that in the past????? I thought that is what dating boards are for---that never even crossed my mind!!LOL!!! I almost feel a little dumb, now.

I thought skippy was "nicely" referring to people sending unkind messages!!

[pam]

Has there been a lot of that in the past????? I thought that is what dating boards are for---that never even crossed my mind!!LOL!!! I almost feel a little dumb, now.

I thought skippy was "nicely" referring to people sending unkind messages!!

Take a look at this and how many names and you decide if it has happened a lot in the past.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-net-admin-alerts/26207-spam-love-scam-emails.html

[Guest]

Take a look at this and how many names and you decide if it has happened a lot in the past.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-net-admin-alerts/26207-spam-love-scam-emails.html

I promise you, none of them are my cousins...

[BadWolf]

I LOVE kids in the sacrement meeting <3 <3 <3

I'm a convert, and while kids being allowed to be kids isn't the reason I converted, it DEFINITELY played a role.

My son is 10. It doesn't apply to him (although to jump topics... He's ADHD, so I DO give him backrubs in Sacrement).

Its a cultural thing, that children should (insert crude way of saying 'be quiet') that Ive ONLY ever found in America. In every other (child friendly to child centric) culture Ive lived in... Children are SUPPOSED to be children, SUPPOSED to 'be in public', SUPPOSED to be a part of the community.

From Hong Kong with children playing under the tables at $500 a plate floating restaurants, to Italy wherein EVERY nearby adult keeps an eye on playing kids (any stranger who hassles the kids playing on the street, or kid who starts bullying others, hears about it... In stereo), to 100 other places in Asia, Southern Europe, Moddle East... Heck. Even upright England & super strict Germany are more child & family focused than the US.

For myself... Coming into a Church where the very unAmerican attitude of 'Children Belong HERE' is one if the many reasons it felt like coming home.

And for myself... I feel the spirit in the sounds of children's joy FAR more, than in the sounds of silence. Being on the murmuring, squeals, thump of dropped books, glint in the eye of an 'escapee', pure frustration, babbling, giggling, "whispering" at the top of their lungs, and all the rest.

MHF is just far more present in the voices of children, than their absence.

[kevieb]

Pam--I am amazed---I also wonder if some of those names are the same person trying again and again?? some of the names were so similar. are they reprimanded--or removed?

Also, I notice we are each designated by our length of time on the board (or is it number of posts?) under our names--or as moderators----what does it mean when it says 'banned" under someone's name---yet they are still posting---or have I just come on too late and someone with "banned" under their name has already been banned and I'm reading what is left?

badwolf---I love children in church---that is part of why I have had a hard time adjusting to my new ward---and I grew up in this ward---but things have been changing for the better regarding children over the last 4 years. I still don't like it when a child is so loud that you cannot hear the speaker, though--and think they ought to be taken out at that point.

However, I can remember one meeting where this little girl was chanting something over and over---not loud enough to disturb everyone---we were just sitting close---I thought it was hilarious---just wish I could remember what she was chanting.........I do think there is a happy medium.

[pam]

Pam--I am amazed---I also wonder if some of those names are the same person trying again and again?? some of the names were so similar. are they reprimanded--or removed?

Also, I notice we are each designated by our length of time on the board (or is it number of posts?) under our names--or as moderators----what does it mean when it says 'banned" under someone's name---yet they are still posting---or have I just come on too late and someone with "banned" under their name has already been banned and I'm reading what is left?

Many of them are the same people trying over and over. Their accounts are deleted and the IP banned.

Once someone is banned they can no longer post on the forums. So what you are probably seeing are posts made by the person before they were banned.