Question about "Following the prophet"

[Smeagums]

I have been discovering, reading and searching some new material that for many Mormons would seem to be apostate teachings. I don't in anyway believe that they are but I don't really want to get into that right now.

I believe in apostles and prophets and believe that they hold all of the keys. I believe that through Joseph Smith the Lord restored all former rights and blessings to the Earth. What I am wondering is where in the scriptures, not from latter day prophets or apostles, does it say to "follow the prophet"? I have found references in the Doctrine and Covenants to receive Joseph Smith's counsel but not Brigham Young's, John Taylor's or even President Monson's.

I love the Gospel of Jesus Christ and am trying to follow it as best as possible. What I am trying to do is sincerely distinguish between the arm of the flesh and the doctrine of Christ.

Thanks.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Smeagums

[Connie]

Doctrine and Covenants 1:14 

Doctrine and Covenants 20:26 

Doctrine and Covenants 21:4-6  (these verses pertain not only to Joseph Smith but all his subsequent successors)

Doctrine and Covenants 43:1-7 

Doctrine and Covenants 107:91-92  (very important one)

[Guest]

There's a good one in Luke 1. You can start at verse 66 all the way to the end.

[Anddenex]

When an individual determines which prophets they will and will not follow they already begin to walk on shaky ground and begin to trust in the arm of their own flesh.

Amos 3: 7, specifically shares that the Lord will reveal his secrets unto his servants the prophets. If the Lord reveals his secrets to his servants the prophets then it is wise that we follow these servants.

If you believe Joseph Smith restored the gospel and all blessings to this Earth, then you also believe tha the succeeding prophets, i.e. Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, down to President Monson, were all called by the same being Joseph Smith received his calling from.

If you believe in Joseph Smith, then you will also believe the Lord inspires other prophets and reveals his secrets unto them.

The most important prophet, is the living prophet. The living prophet is currently the individual that the Lord will reveal his secrets to. Once these secrets are delivered to them, they deliver them to us, as seen fit by the Lord, unless they are forbidden to reveal such doctrines.

If you want a perfect example of trusting in the arm of the Lord, verses trusting in the arm of the flesh read carefully the life of Nephi and Laman. Contrast Nephi's response to his father's words in relation to Laman and Lemuel.

Do the scriptures need to specifically say, "Follow Brigham Young," for us to follow his counsel as the Lord's prophet? No.

We only need to know that he was called by God, as was Joseph Smith. The question, Do you believe they were prophets? If so, then there isn't really other question then to follow him.

[Smeagums]

Thanks for all of the responses. I am going to digest some of them and respond later.

I just get concerned that sometimes we'd quickly follow the prophet before we'd follow the Savior. I do think we should follow no man but Christ and naturally we should "receive" any man who is truly a prophet of God.

This was actually my first question and I'm not sure how I skipped it. I was wondering when it was that a prophet was to lead the Church. From my understanding, around David O'McKay's presidency the title of prophet was advanced from presiding high priest. Meaning those after Joseph, such as Brigham, weren't the prophet necessarily but the presiding high priest. When someone talked of the prophet it was specifically Joseph Smith. President O'McKay changed it from presiding high priest to prophet.

Has anyone ever heard of this change before?

[skalenfehl]

We must always follow Jesus Christ. The first place to look for the Master's voice is among the presiding authorities of the church, but they are not entitled to anyone's blind trust. No mortal is free from error and Joseph Smith even confessed his numerous faults and shortcomings. Brigham Young said it best when he cautioned:

"What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path that the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (JD 9:150)

We are to listen to gain a testimony from the Holy Ghost and not from men, because by following men (trusting in arm of flesh) turns us into idolaters who are worthy of the Telestial Kingdom. Ponder D&C 76:98-101

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

"Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to do in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the Celestial Kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, through all mankind besides should take the opposite course." (JD 1:312)

George Q. Cannon also expressed concern over following men, rather than the voice of the Spirit:

"Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an Apostle, or a President; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone; but if we lean on God, He never will fail us. When men and women depend on God alone, and trust in Him alone, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside. They could still see that He is just and true, that truth is lovely in His sight, and the pure in heart are dear to Him." (Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon)

When men speak as men, no matter their role in society or church, they are not entitled to your faith. If you give it to them, you are an idolater and following a telestial standard. When prophets speak by the voice of inspiration, then it is the voice of inspiration that you follow. We are His disciples and not His servants' disciples.

When Nephi took the brass plates and left Laman and his brothers, he took all those who believed in the Lord's words.

5 And it came to pass that the Lord did warn me, that I, Nephi, should depart from them and flee into the wilderness, and all those who would go with me.

6 Wherefore, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did take my family, and also Zoram and his family, and Sam, mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and Joseph, my younger brethren, and also my sisters, and all those who would go with me. And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words.

One more quote:

“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel – said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish Church – that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls – applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall – that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves...” (The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 237-238)

Edited January 16, 2013 by skalenfehl

[Smeagums]

I guess this is what I'm trying to get at.

We know for certain that Joseph Smith was a prophet according to the scriptures but the others have room for debate.

In Doctrine and Covenants 107 much of the priesthood and their offices are explained in detail.

8 The Melchizedek Priesthood holds the right of presidency, and has power and authority over all the offices in the church in all ages of the world, to administer in spiritual things.

This makes sense to me.

18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—

19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.

This includes anyone who truly receives the priesthood mentioned.

22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

This is the verse that I think we contradict as a Church. Before President McKay, the quorum of the first presidency was nothing more than the presiding high priests. (I'm not taking away from this calling but just having to point at the difference). I see no indication of them being prophets over the Church but rather men who preside and rely upon the prayers of the Saints. Why did we change presiding high priests to prophets?

[Smeagums]

@ skalenfehl

Thanks Coach.

[Anddenex]

I guess this is what I'm trying to get at.

We know for certain that Joseph Smith was a prophet according to the scriptures but the others have room for debate.

I would be curious as to why you consider our other prophets as having room for debate as being called prophets?

Brigham Young is pretty clear from our Church history that he would be the next prophet.

22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

This is the verse that I think we contradict as a Church. Before President McKay, the quorum of the first presidency was nothing more than the presiding high priests. (I'm not taking away from this calling but just having to point at the difference). I see no indication of them being prophets over the Church but rather men who preside and rely upon the prayers of the Saints. Why did we change presiding high priests to prophets?

I am not sure I am seeing why you feel the Church contradicts this. The three Presiding High Priest are the First Presidency. Among these three High Priests is the prophet or the President of the Church.

The president of the Church is the presiding high priest, and also the prophet. Joseph Smith was the Presiding High Priest, or the prophet.

Brigham Young was the prophet, or the presiding high priest. They are interchangeable titles.

[skippy740]

We make our covenants with the Godhead - God the Father, Jesus the Christ and the Holy Ghost. Following the Prophet SHOULD help us magnify and honor the covenants we have made. There shouldn't be any conflicting messages.

If you feel that the Prophet is NOT helping us to magnify our covenants... then this needs to be studied out, discussed with priesthood leaders and lots of prayer.

Keep in mind that we are in a day and age of the Church where we are not receiving much if any new doctrines for the membership of the Church. Yes, there are policy changes, but no new doctrines... yet. Most general conference talks have been more about "what manner of men ought we to be". I would find it to be very difficult to discount such counsel.

Old teachings that were not in harmony have (I believe) been corrected, even if not fully explained.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/45876-scriptures-church-history-racism-blacks-scriptures.html

[Guest]

Off topic: when I was primary music leader, we were learning "Follow the Prophet". It took all of my will to not change the chorus after the Jonah verse to "Swallow the Prophet". I didn't do it. Be proud of me.

[Smeagums]

I would be curious as to why you consider our other prophets as having room for debate as being called prophets?

Brigham Young is pretty clear from our Church history that he would be the next prophet.

I am not sure I am seeing why you feel the Church contradicts this. The three Presiding High Priest are the First Presidency. Among these three High Priests is the prophet or the President of the Church.

The president of the Church is the presiding high priest, and also the prophet. Joseph Smith was the Presiding High Priest, or the prophet.

Brigham Young was the prophet, or the presiding high priest. They are interchangeable titles.

Could you please show me the reference where the presiding high priest(s) are prophets?

My questions are sincere.

[Connie]

Could you please show me the reference where the presiding high priest(s) are prophets?

My questions are sincere.

I already shared it but will do so again: Doctrine and Covenants 107:91-92 

[Vort]

Could you please show me the reference where the presiding high priest(s) are prophets?

My questions are sincere.

Not sure I understand the question. We are all supposed to be prophets. Any who have callings are supposed to be prophets (or prophetesses) for the duties of that calling and any who might be under their charge. As the presiding high priests have authority over all they preside over, they should be prophets to all those people. The General Authorities are therefore, by very definition, prophets to the entire Church.

[Smeagums]

I already shared it but will do so again: Doctrine and Covenants 107:91-92Â*

This is part of what I was looking for. Sorry I didn't recognize it from your previous post.

[skippy740]

Not sure I understand the question. We are all supposed to be prophets. Any who have callings are supposed to be prophets (or prophetesses) for the duties of that calling and any who might be under their charge. As the presiding high priests have authority over all they preside over, they should be prophets to all those people. The General Authorities are therefore, by very definition, prophets to the entire Church.

Particularly as we understand the doctrine and principle of stewardship.

As such, we all have local presiding High Priests. They are stake presidents to preside over various stakes in Zion. (Plenty of verses about the stakes in Zion in the D&C.)

[Anddenex]

Could you please show me the reference where the presiding high priest(s) are prophets?

My questions are sincere.

I don't doubt your sincerity Smeagun, as my question is sincere also, where is the room for debate surrounding other prophets and their prophetic call?

I believe Connie already provided scriptural evidence for this question Smeagun. Let's read,

“And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—

92 Behold, here is wisdom; yea, to be a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet, having all the gifts of God which he bestows upon the head of the church.(D&C 107:91–92).

The first question to clarify this verse of scripture is to ask ourselves who was Moses? He was a prophet. He was called by God to deliver Israel.

In relation to the first question we are informed that their is a President of the office of the High Priesthood. This President of the High Priesthood, is one of the three Presiding High Priests.

This President of the High Priesthood is "to be like unto Moses," and who was Moses - "a seer, a revelator, a translator, and and a prophet."

This President presides over the whole church. Who currently is the President of the High Priesthood? President Thomas S. Monson. He is one of the Presiding High Priests.

He is to be like unto Mose, who was a prophet, a seer, and a revelator.

[pam]

Here's also another little something from Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

Prophet, Seer, and Revelator - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism

[Connie]

Off topic: when I was primary music leader, we were learning "Follow the Prophet". It took all of my will to not change the chorus after the Jonah verse to "Swallow the Prophet". I didn't do it. Be proud of me.

LOL! That's hilarious... i never would have thought of that.

This is part of what I was looking for. Sorry I didn't recognize it from your previous post.

It's all good. :)

[skalenfehl]

One point of historical significance, which can be found in D&C and also church history. Joseph Smith was the "First Elder" and Oliver Cowdery, the "Second Elder." Had Oliver Cowdery not be excommunicated, he would have been next in line as the prophet, seer and revelator. After this, Hyrum Smith was appointed to this position:

D&C 124:94 And from this time forth I appoint unto him that he may be a prophet, and a seer, and a revelator unto my church, as well as my servant Joseph;

95 That he may act in concert also with my servant Joseph; and that he shall receive counsel from my servant Joseph, who shall show unto him the keys whereby he may ask and receive, and be crowned with the same blessing, and glory, and honor, and priesthood, and gifts of the priesthood, that once were put upon him that was my servant Oliver Cowdery;

Had Joseph and Hyrum fled west to the Rocky Mountains as commanded by the Lord and had the saints followed them rather than convince Joseph to turn himself in, Joseph and Hyrum would have continued in their natural hierarchy of leadership. Had Joseph turned himself in and Hyrum remained to survive, Hyrum would have been the next appointed prophet, seer and revelator to succeed Joseph.

As a result of the their martyrdom, the position of prophet, seer and revelator was lost by divine appointment. Joseph had earlier recorded a revelation which stated the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles were "equal in authority and power" to the First Presidency, so Brigham Young claimed that the leadership of the church fell to the Twelve Apostles. The majority in attendance were persuaded that the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was to lead the church with Young as the Quorum's President. (D&C 107:23-24)

This has been the tradition ever since.

[Smeagums]

I want to revisit verse 22.

22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

It seems as if that we are supposed to choose the presiding high priest and he should be someone who is like unto Moses.

I think simply choosing the most senior apostle, as skalenfehl mentioned, is a tradition and not according to scripture.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Smeagums

[skippy740]

Okay, you put forth the scripture and the challenge. I'm going to respond in kind:

Who chooses the most senior apostle? I'll give you a hint: We don't choose, we sustain.

Who said it was not according to scripture? (Wasn't Peter the most senior Apostle and the one the Lord Himself chose?)

[Just_A_Guy]

I want to revisit verse 22.

22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

It seems as if that we are supposed to choose the presiding high priest and he should be someone who is like unto Moses.

I think simply choosing the most senior apostle, as skalenfehl mentioned, is a tradition and not according to scripture.

Smeagums, even amongst the GAs there have been some disagreements on this. Brigham Young believed that the office of Apostle was superior to that of high priest and necessarily encompassed the prerogatives pertaining to that office; at least in part because Joseph Smith told the Twelve that he was rolling all of his keys off onto them. Joseph F. Smith didn't agree, and when he was set apart as President of the Church he specifically made sure it was done by someone who had been previously ordained as a high priest (some in the Twelve at that time had "gone apostle" without ever previously being a high priest).

The blog "By Common Consent" recently had a fifteen-part series on how this whole thing evolved - it's not straightforward, and is complicated both by shifting definitions in key terms ("High priesthood", for example) and by the fact that some of the key sections of the D&C are spliced and edited--in the Kirtland period Church organization was quite literally being revealed faster than the publishers of the D&C could keep up.

Have fun.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[skalenfehl]

@ skalenfehl

Thanks Coach.

LOL! Now you have me at a disadvantage!

PM sent.