Was God involved in the papal election?

[searching_questioner]

Either God was, or was not involved in the papal election.

Was God involved in the election of Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio to the papacy? If He was not, then that would support the idea that He ignored the prayers of millions of humble, faithful, sincere Catholics and that seems like a strange idea. If He was involved, then that would support the idea that President Monson is not the only man whom God has called to lead a church at this time and that is something I have not considered before. I'm not sure which of these two ideas is more plausible, but I suspect that they both cannot be true. Any thoughts?

[NeuroTypical]

We LDS do not claim to be the only people the Holy Ghost works with. But pretty much anything beyond that is speculation.

[Anddenex]

Either God was, or was not involved in the papal election.

Was God involved in the election of Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio to the papacy? If He was not, then that would support the idea that He ignored the prayers of millions of humble, faithful, sincere Catholics and that seems like a strange idea. If He was involved, then that would support the idea that President Monson is not the only man whom God has called to lead a church at this time and that is something I have not considered before. I'm not sure which of these two ideas is more plausible, but I suspect that they both cannot be true. Any thoughts?

What you present is a false dichotomy. There are more options, plausible options, which you haven't mentioned.

God answers the faithful prayers of all his children, otherwise he would be a respecter of persons. Yes, God was involved, however this doesn't dictate that there is more than one person guiding the affairs of his Church.

President Monson, is the only prophet who holds the keys to direct the affairs of the kingdom of God.

God answers the sincere prayers of every denomination that exercises faith in him. The answering of the prayers for the papacy would be no different than God answering the prayers of a person who isn't a member of the LDS Church.

The Lord will guide all of his children, if they exercise faith, however there is only one place which holds the rights of the priesthood, which priesthood is the right to direct the affairs of the kingdom of God on earth.

[skippy740]

The Catholic Church brings souls to Christ and is a power for good in this world.

LDS does not have the exclusive rights to having prayers answered to lead others towards righteous living. If we did, LDS represents less than 1% of the population of the world and God is no respector of persons, esteeming one over another.

While we may disagree on their theology, I don't doubt their intentions are good and noble.

[Wingnut]

I absolutely believe that He was involved.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Heavenly Father is immediately involved in every sincere prayer uttered by his children.

[searching_questioner]

Accepting the idea that God answers all faithful and sincere prayers, and I accept this point, leads to the conclusion that He was involved in the selection of the leader of an organization that, by leading people to a path that is good ie, the Catholic church, deters people from seeking a path that is better, ie, the LDS church, and therefore lessens the likelihood that they will gain eternal exhaltation.

[Anddenex]

Or, it is simply a person progressing line upon line, precept upon precept, and here a little and there a little, which increases their chances that they will gain exhalation.

[searching_questioner]

If its in any organisation other than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, you can progress to the end of the line, or to the top of the ladder, and believe that you have "made it", but still be a very long way away from salvation. The problem is, that those who believe they have found an organisation that helps them to be a better person are often content with what they have found and have no desire to leave it, even though that organisation does not contain all that is needed in order for its members to gain salvation.The problem is made worse when that organisation actively preaches that all other organisations are wrong and encourages its members to avoid all other such organisations.

[Anddenex]

Then it really isn't the organization that prevents a person from progressing, although it may become a stumbling block toward exhalation; ultimately, it is the individuals quest for truth which determines their ability to gain exhalation.

I do agree though, people may become less willing, however would they have been more willing if the Church was introduced first?

I used to think so, however I now believe it is a person's desire for truth that ultimately determines their state in the next life.

[Vort]

I do not know to what extent God was involved in the Pope's selection. I believe that the Holy Ghost guides them who seek his guidance, so if the cardinals were sincere and Godly men, it stands to reason they were divinely guided.

However, it is clear that God's kingdom on earth is the LDS Church, and only the LDS Church. The Roman Catholic Church is not the kingdom of God on earth, nor any other organization outside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As a rule, God does not interfere in the machinations of the organizations of men, of which the Catholic Church is an example. So no, I do not believe that God inspired the selection of the Pope in the same way that, for example, God inspires the calling of an apostle (or a stake president, or a Primary teacher).

[Guest]

I do not know to what extent God was involved in the Pope's selection. I believe that the Holy Ghost guides them who seek his guidance, so if the cardinals were sincere and Godly men, it stands to reason they were divinely guided.

However, it is clear that God's kingdom on earth is the LDS Church, and only the LDS Church. The Roman Catholic Church is not the kingdom of God on earth, nor any other organization outside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As a rule, God does not interfere in the machinations of the organizations of men, of which the Catholic Church is an example. So no, I do not believe that God inspired the selection of the Pope in the same way that, for example, God inspires the calling of an apostle (or a stake president, or a Primary teacher).

I agree up to a point. Yes, God's purpose for providing inspiration on the selection of the prophet, stake president, primary teacher, etc. may be different from the selection of the pope BUT the Holy Ghost (who is God) inspires them nonetheless. The purpose may not be to hand over the keys to the Kingdom, but just because one does not have the authority does not mean that God did not interfere/inspire in the machinations of the organization of the Catholic Church whose heart, despite lacking in truth, is still single to the glory of God.

I have been a Catholic longer than I am LDS and my testimony stands bedrock on this truth. That God guided me through my spiritual growth in the Catholic Church all the way to the time that I gained a testimony of the full gospel. And as a Catholic, I have built testimonies of God's hand in the work of his servants in the Catholic Church.

And to the OP: This I also testify, that the burning desire to find the fullness of the gospel does not stop just because you have faith in the Catholic Church. It does not stop either just because you found the fullness of the gospel in the LDS Church. The burning desire to build one's testimony of the Kingdom of God is always alive, always leading someone who is honest, humble, and diligent closer and closer to Eternal Salvation. Just because you are LDS does not guarantee you that fullness of joy. And just because you died Catholic does not bar you from fullness of joy.

My father is dying. I do not believe that God's justice would mean that my Catholic father who lived his life single to the glory of God as a Catholic, who never gained a testimony of the full gospel as he never found an opportunity to do so, who lived his life a good Christian, would NEVER have fullness of joy.

Edited March 17, 2013 by anatess

[searching_questioner]

I do agree though, people may become less willing, however would they have been more willing if the Church was introduced first?

Perhaps they would, perhaps not, although its worth keeping in mind Doctrine and Covenants 123:12 - (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 123:12)

For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it—

I used to think so, however I now believe it is a person's desire for truth that ultimately determines their state in the next life.

An interesting idea - one I shall think about over the coming days.

Edited March 17, 2013 by skippy740
adjusting italics

[Anddenex]

Perhaps they would, perhaps not, although its worth keeping in mind Doctrine and Covenants 123:12 - (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 123:12)

For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it—

It appears, our thoughts ponder the same verse. I was thinking upon this verse when I mentioned, the organization may become a stumbling block.

This is part of the reason why I used to think that organizations ultimately caused people to loose their exhaltation, however, I believe that if a person truly is desiring truth, when truth is presented they will accept the truth, as in scripture -- his sheep hear his voice.

[SteveVH]

The problem is, that those who believe they have found an organisation that helps them to be a better person are often content with what they have found and have no desire to leave it... The problem is made worse when that organisation actively preaches that all other organisations are wrong and encourages its members to avoid all other such organisations.

Does this not describe the LDS Church as well?

Since this thread concerns the guidance of the Holy Spirit in choosing a pope for the Catholic Church I will just say this. We do not believe all other faiths are wrong, not do we preach that to the world. We believe that other faiths are lacking in the fulness of truth which the Catholic Church, alone, posesses, but we recognize the truth present in all religions. And yes, of course, we believe that the Cardinals were guided by the Holy Spirit in choosing Pope Francis. The whole Church has been praying for this guidance since Pope Benedict XVI abdicated and it is clear to Catholics, anyway, that the Holy Spirit has chosen to move the Church in a new direction with this holy, humble and Christ-like man.

Edited March 17, 2013 by StephenVH

[Traveler]

I think we can understand and recognize the fact that G-d is very much involved in the affairs of mankind. But we should also be aware that so is Satan. In fact Judas is proof that Satan was very involved in the Church of Christ even as Jesus taught his other apostles.

What troubles me personally is not so much what others are doing - but what I am thinking - for example when Jesus told his apostles that there was one among them that would betray him - I can logically see James whispering in John's ear "I'll bet it is Judas, he has sure been acting strange lately!" That is how I tend to think. But the apostles of Jesus turned and asked instead, "L-rd is it I".

Most often we think of those that betray Jesus as being "outsiders" those of a "different" sect - but the real question we should be asking is not if G-d is directing any institution or church - so much as we should be asking if he is directing us. If not - then it does not matter for us any more than it did for Judas to belong to the church directed by G-d.

The Traveler

[Matthew0059]

The Lord established Nebechudnezzar and the "king of Assyria" with the express purposes of using them to destroy. Once this was accomplished, both also received their own just rewards. The Lord will raise up tyrants occasionally with the express purpose of pruning the vineyard and clearing away the wicked who won't repent no matter what- the book of Revelation contains a prophecy about a future tyrant who's reign is because God allows it.

It reasons that even if the Lord raises up someone (or as the OP said, was "involved" in the papal election) it's not necessarily a sign of His approval of their actions, character, or the organization they run.

[SteveVH]

I think we can understand and recognize the fact that G-d is very much involved in the affairs of mankind. But we should also be aware that so is Satan. In fact Judas is proof that Satan was very involved in the Church of Christ even as Jesus taught his other apostles.

What troubles me personally is not so much what others are doing - but what I am thinking - for example when Jesus told his apostles that there was one among them that would betray him - I can logically see James whispering in John's ear "I'll bet it is Judas, he has sure been acting strange lately!" That is how I tend to think. But the apostles of Jesus turned and asked instead, "L-rd is it I".

Most often we think of those that betray Jesus as being "outsiders" those of a "different" sect - but the real question we should be asking is not if G-d is directing any institution or church - so much as we should be asking if he is directing us. If not - then it does not matter for us any more than it did for Judas to belong to the church directed by G-d.

The Traveler

You make a great point, Traveler. It does one little good to "belong" to a Church that is truly guided by the Holy Spirit if one does not live out the life demanded by the Gospel. On the other hand, it does one no good to live according to the teachings of a false church, even if we carry out its precepts perfectly. So it is imperative that we do both; seek and find that true Church, and live according to that truth.

[Matthew0059]

I posted something a few days ago that wasn't clear enough, and people thought I was making a poor comparison in bad taste. Because I haven't seen anyone else discuss the principle I intended to share, let me elaborate and repost it.

The assumption made in the OP is that IF God had a hand in the recent papal election, then it's essentially His hand guiding the Catholic church, just like He guides the LDS church. Left unchecked, that belief will lead to some sort of Mormon Universalist viewpoint that all religions are pretty much the same and, in general, led by God. My intent is to show that the Lord doesn't always approve of the actions made by the people he leads and allows to be put in positions of power.

In the sciptures, we read the prophets declaring that the Lord sometimes sets up (or allows to be set up) specific leaders for the express purpose of destroying or oppressing the covenant people. One example is Isaiah's use of the king of Assyria as both a literal and symbolic representation of the "evil king" that the Lord uses to accomplish His purpose. Another is the anti-Christ figure in the book of Revelation who oppresses the Saints for a season at the end of the world. In both cases the Lord is clear that he allows these men to rise to their positions of power to punish the Saints (in Isaiah, we read that the Lord even refers to the king of Assyria as "His" instrument of destruction, who is used by God because for a time his own goals and God's are similar).

Sometimes the Lord allows a proud and/or wicked man to get the reigns of power for His own purposes. So even if the Lord did have some kind of hand in the election of the pope, it doesn't mean the Lord approves of the new pope as the leader of a righteous organization, as is implied in the OP.

I am not saying that this is the case or that Pope Francis is or will be a tryant or an evil man, only sharing what we find in the scriptures.

[Traveler]

You make a great point, Traveler. It does one little good to "belong" to a Church that is truly guided by the Holy Spirit if one does not live out the life demanded by the Gospel. On the other hand, it does one no good to live according to the teachings of a false church, even if we carry out its precepts perfectly. So it is imperative that we do both; seek and find that true Church, and live according to that truth.

My point is that one needs to seek to be lead by the spirit - there are examples in history of institutions established by G-d drifting into apostasy. Most prominent is the “house of Israel” that drifted so far that it rejected the very Christ. In fact the problem of counterfeit is an ageless problem. Because a counterfeit by definition looks like the real thing and claims to be the real thing.

So how do we know a counterfeit institution claiming to be of G-d? If one relies on the institution to provide the answer - the advantage will always lie with the counterfeiters. I think for sure we can illuminate all institutions that do not claim to be the one and only true institution. I suggested before (some time ago) that the one true church and one true baptism are connected to the one true G-d concept.

I believe that if there is no way to independently verify an institution as official or counterfeit - then one is doomed to be beguiled - especially if one as cleaver, powerful and willing to knowingly and openly oppose G-d as Satan does; is providing the counterfeit.

The Traveler

[SteveVH]

My point is that one needs to seek to be lead by the spirit - there are examples in history of institutions established by G-d drifting into apostasy. Most prominent is the “house of Israel” that drifted so far that it rejected the very Christ. In fact the problem of counterfeit is an ageless problem. Because a counterfeit by definition looks like the real thing and claims to be the real thing.

So how do we know a counterfeit institution claiming to be of G-d? If one relies on the institution to provide the answer - the advantage will always lie with the counterfeiters. I think for sure we can illuminate all institutions that do not claim to be the one and only true institution. I suggested before (some time ago) that the one true church and one true baptism are connected to the one true G-d concept.

I believe that if there is no way to independently verify an institution as official or counterfeit - then one is doomed to be beguiled - especially if one as cleaver, powerful and willing to knowingly and openly oppose G-d as Satan does; is providing the counterfeit.

The Traveler

I feel pretty good about being able to prove my Church not to be counterfeit. We could start with 2000 years of uninterupted history, 2000 years of uninterupted Apostolic succession and 2000 years of doctrinal consistency. Not that I want to get off on this tangent, but I'm not sure who you're referring to as having a counterfeit faith.

[Guest]

Someone can be wrong for 2000 years as easily as someone can be correct for 2000 years, so I'm not sure what your point is. But I would advise you to carefully look at site rule #1.

[Anddenex]

I feel pretty good about being able to prove my Church not to be counterfeit. We could start with 2000 years of uninterupted history, 2000 years of uninterupted Apostolic succession and 2000 years of doctrinal consistency. Not that I want to get off on this tangent, but I'm not sure who you're referring to as having a counterfeit faith.

In context, StephenVH, the Traveler mentioned, "Most prominent is the “house of Israel” that drifted so far that it rejected the very Christ."

When referring to counterfeit organizations or institutions the Traveler appears to be very general and wasn't specifically targeting any specific organization as he mentions "the house of Israel" who fell into apostasy before Christ came.

His question is general requesting all of any intelligence to ask, "How does one decipher an organization to be counterfeit or truth?

If we take your standard of history, then the Jews surely out weigh Catholicism, thus depending solely on an uninterrupted timeline, we would then need to look at other religions who have an uninterrupted timeline also.

So not to digress, the Traveler appeared to be very general in his assessment, inviting others to ask for themselves, "So how do we know a counterfeit institution claiming to be of G-d?"

[SteveVH]

Someone can be wrong for 2000 years as easily as someone can be correct for 2000 years, so I'm not sure what your point is. But I would advise you to carefully look at site rule #1.

I have deleted the post. I wasn't trying to upset anyone.

Site Rule #1

"Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachings, or its leaders. Anti-LDS Propaganda will not be tolerated anywhere."

What in the world did I say that was in the least bit derogatory toward your Church?

This is what I said:

Originally Posted by StephenVH

I feel pretty good about being able to prove my Church not to be counterfeit. We could start with 2000 years of uninterupted history, 2000 years of uninterupted Apostolic succession and 2000 years of doctrinal consistency. Not that I want to get off on this tangent, but I'm not sure who you're referring to as having a counterfeit faith.

Talk about having to walk on egg shells.

[selek]

I have deleted the post. I wasn't trying to upset anyone.

Talk about having to walk on egg shells.

For my own two-bits, StephenVH, I read your post as you intended, but it had at least the potential to come across as "my church is better than your church" and as a direct challenge to the authenticity claims of the CoJCoLDS.

I wouldn't sweat it too much, just try to be more cognizant of how people might try to misinterpret you in the future.