Yet another 'sexual sin' thread

[estradling75]

The notion of not accepting other's happiness seems a little unfair when you've achieved yours.

You still haven't addressed why our acceptance or not matters to you. It is clearly important to you but without understanding why we are taking shots in the dark based on guess work and assumptions

[Martain]

The Lord has given his children the Law of Chastity which is abstinence from all sexual relations prior to marriage.

With the number of individuals out there who are addicted to pornography, masturbation or who active fornicators or adulterers… difficulty in keeping the Law of Chastity is not unique to those who are homosexually attracted. With the commandment being the same to all, a primary difference between you and someone who has no homosexual attractions is hope.

Satan is very good at what he does and his lies are born of practice upon the children of men over thousands of years. Here are a few:

This is who you are.

You can’t change.

You’ll always feel this way.

You were born this way.

You deserve happiness.

It’s only natural.

It’s none of their business.

They just don’t understand.

You’re not hurting anyone.

It’s your body, do what you want.

Do any of these sound familiar to you?

I have a friend who was once addicted to masturbation. He once related to me how in a moment of despair the majority of thoughts above flowed through his mind. Overwhelmed, he believed them and his hope died of ever changing and of ever being able to live the Law of Chastity.

Do you have hope? If not, the similarity is striking.

Having sincerely sought to repent, my friend did not understand what he had done wrong. Why, if the gospel was true… Why if the atonement was real… Why if Jesus really does save… Why wasn’t he freed when he repented? Did he go about it wrong? Was he secretly not sincere enough? Why would it work for others but not for him? Where was the healing? Recognizing that just because he didn’t have proof that what he had been taught was true, it didn’t mean it was false either. He concluded that while it may be real, it didn’t work for him. Any wonder he became depressed?

He left the Church, and would leave the room when his family would discuss the Gospel or talk of God. He told me of how very hard hearted and darkened he became, of how he embraced masturbation and identified with it and embraced a sinful lifestyle. My knowledge of him… reminds me of you yet his ending is different from his beginning. Many years later painful events in his life lead him to a unquenchable thirst to know. It’s not an understatement to say that to him, it was a matter of life and death to know what truth was and where it could be found.

Feeling burned by Christianity, he decided that he would look through the other doors first before returning to check on that door. He started researching other religions but found himself unable to proceed. Something… was calling to him. In his mind the thought kept whispering… what if.

Yes… What if. What if it was true. What if it was all true. What if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was indeed the Church of God and that the Gospel it taught was true. What if Jesus Christ really does live and really does love us? What if the atonement is real and really does have the power to remake us new? What if the Savior really could and even would free him from his sinful addictions and desires? Yes… What if.

Like a beam of light shining through a keyhole, he felt called to return to the teachings of Christ. He then came to a realization. If that was the true door… then if he went looking into those other religions, he probably would never make it back. He realized he needed to FIRST open that door and open it fully and then after seeing what was behind that door, either close it or walk through it and close it behind him forever.

He had to know. And so he put it to the test. He started… by saying a prayer to which I’ll quote his writing.

“Heavenly Father. Father. I don’t know if you are there or not but I really hope you are. If you are, I’m going to try once more. If you don’t reach me now, I’m afraid that you’ll never reach me. It’s all or nothing. Please, help me!”

Events lead him to a book called “How Great Shall Be Your Joy” by Steven A. Cramer. By reading this book and by experimenting upon the word in the manner taught by Alma, in reading the scriptures and testing the promise given by Moroni, he found the answer to why the atonement had not worked for him the first time. In my mind’s eye I can picture him leaping for joy shouting “Yes!” when he finally realized what he had lacked.

He repented again and that time, armed with the knowledge he found in that book paired with the witness he gained from Moroni’s promise he was successful. It worked and he was changed in a manner that he indicates is still amazing to him. He tells me, that even his desire… to masturbate is gone. Now that… is a CHANGE!

So, what if…

What if it is true? Is it not then of the utmost importance to know?

I testify to you that it is true. I testify that Jesus Christ does live and does love and does want you to be happy. I testify that your current lifestyle will not bring you lasting happiness even in this life. I testify that real happiness, lasting happiness, in this life and the next, comes from obeying the Laws of Happiness, even the commandments of God.

I testify to you that the Atonement is real and truly does have the power to remake you. It has the power to change your heart and so change you to where not even the desire will remain. I testify that Jesus Christ really does want to heal you. Receiving the power of the atonement is conditional upon your repentance. He will not force you, you must come willingly with your whole heart and your whole soul.

I challenge you to do what my friend did. I challenge you to read what he read, to test the promise like he did. I invite you to repent, come unto your Savior, and find that He is waiting for you.

[carlimac]

Also the only thing you owe anyone is yourself your happiness.

Not true. We are here on earth to serve and help one another. I find homosexuals in relationships tend to justify and become more self absorbed than others. The ones I know who are trying their hardest to stay celibate and keep the commandments are some of the most selfless and loving individuals.

Edited April 4, 2013 by carlimac

[selek]

I find the "my happiness is the most important thing" meme to be more than a little ideologically convenient.

Smokers find their "happiness" in tobacco and nicotine... but no one seems to have a problem telling them that they're wrong.

Alcoholics find their "happiness" in a bottle...but they are almost as hen-pecked a group as smokers.

So why is it that those who find their happiness is sexual deviance (pornography, homosexuality, adultery, and other forms of fornication) are celebrated for their "courageous" choices?

[BadWolf]

I'm watching conference with one of my besties & HIS boyfriend, and bpyfriend's parents. Parents are active, my friends are not, per se. They don't attend sacrement, don't hold TRs, hold no callings. They do read/study/pray/volunteer/tithe/etc. Theyre not activists. Theyre not trying to change the church. They dont follow the law of chastity, which nixes them from most parts of participation... but do in all other ways practice on a daily level. Including Word of Wisdom, fast sundays, etc. And, as I said, Im potlucking with them over conference.

THEIR feeling, is that they're not going to throw out the baby with the bath water. They're leaving it up to God to judge them, as he sees fit. Maybe the church will have a place for them someday, maybe it won't. Meanwhile, they do the best they can with what they've got.

Boyfriend's parents, meanwhile, are very active. Callings in Bishopric & RS, every sacrement, TR, etc.

All 4 are some of the very best of people.

LOL... I should probably add... My friends are in their 40s. This isn't anything new for them. They're close with Boufriend's parents (and sibs/spouses/kids), but they're not kids themselves. My friend's family shut the doors on a relationship with him 20 years ago. Boyfriends family didn't.

I also have a fair number of GLBTQ friends who are in no way affiliated with the church, or who, like you, have left. All are good people. I'm not friends with bad people. Including those who might LOOK all worthy, and are actually despicable human beings who are abusive, cruel, etc.

AND I have GLBfriends in the church who AREA active, hold TRs, etc. some are in mixed orientation marriages, some are single & celibate.

I can't say whether or not YOU are a good person. I don't know you. Because I fail to see how ones sexual identity defines whether one is a good person or not.

[Jennarator]

I just want to mention that there is a difference between earthly "happiness" and eternal "joy."

We find moments of happiness even in great struggles, temptation, pain and even this earthly life. The joys comes when we faithfully endure and make is back to our Father in Heaven. The eternal joy lasts forever and is much stronger that being happy on earth.

Just something to keep in mind. :)

[mikbone]

So why is it that those who find their happiness is sexual deviance (pornography, homosexuality, adultery, and other forms of fornication) are celebrated for their "courageous" choices?

hehe, courageous.

[Anonono]

I find the "my happiness is the most important thing" meme to be more than a little ideologically convenient.

Smokers find their "happiness" in tobacco and nicotine... but no one seems to have a problem telling them that they're wrong.

Alcoholics find their "happiness" in a bottle...but they are almost as hen-pecked a group as smokers.

So why is it that those who find their happiness is sexual deviance (pornography, homosexuality, adultery, and other forms of fornication) are celebrated for their "courageous" choices?

From a completely subjective perspective, surely you can see this notion of yours could also apply to your choice of religion.

I'm watching conference with one of my besties & HIS boyfriend, and bpyfriend's parents. Parents are active, my friends are not, per se. They don't attend sacrement, don't hold TRs, hold no callings. They do read/study/pray/volunteer/tithe/etc. Theyre not activists. Theyre not trying to change the church. They dont follow the law of chastity, which nixes them from most parts of participation... but do in all other ways practice on a daily level. Including Word of Wisdom, fast sundays, etc. And, as I said, Im potlucking with them over conference.

THEIR feeling, is that they're not going to throw out the baby with the bath water. They're leaving it up to God to judge them, as he sees fit. Maybe the church will have a place for them someday, maybe it won't. Meanwhile, they do the best they can with what they've got.

Boyfriend's parents, meanwhile, are very active. Callings in Bishopric & RS, every sacrement, TR, etc.

All 4 are some of the very best of people.

LOL... I should probably add... My friends are in their 40s. This isn't anything new for them. They're close with Boufriend's parents (and sibs/spouses/kids), but they're not kids themselves. My friend's family shut the doors on a relationship with him 20 years ago. Boyfriends family didn't.

I also have a fair number of GLBTQ friends who are in no way affiliated with the church, or who, like you, have left. All are good people. I'm not friends with bad people. Including those who might LOOK all worthy, and are actually despicable human beings who are abusive, cruel, etc.

AND I have GLBfriends in the church who AREA active, hold TRs, etc. some are in mixed orientation marriages, some are single & celibate.

I can't say whether or not YOU are a good person. I don't know you. Because I fail to see how ones sexual identity defines whether one is a good person or not.

This is very interesting to me. While I have no immediate intention of adhering to roles in the church, I still find myself praying. And I still feel the feelings I once learnt to be the holy spirit, however it doesn't tell me that anything is wrong with me, it's a good feeling. Now on this subject, the church promotes personal revelation. If I feel my personal revelation tells me that I'm not doing anything wrong, then I am at peace with God. Any disagreement from the LDS community to this notion would only promote the idea that the LDS church is driven my the member's general opinion of what is right and what is wrong backed up with incoherent scripture. A sentence I kept hearing which served as consolation when I felt bullied within the church is that "the religion is perfect but the people in it are not" or something along those lines. But the family declaration was written by a church member, so is the ensign, so are the speeches you hear at conference. I never had much respect for general authorities, someone in my family has been a 70's quorum member for all my life, and he is just not a righteous person by many standards and just an outright foul individual to be around. Hence I never really heeded to words of members of such "authority" or members of the church in general.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Anonono

[estradling75]

This is very interesting to me. While I have no immediate intention of adhering to roles in the church, I still find myself praying. And I still feel the feelings I once learnt to be the holy spirit, however it doesn't tell me that anything is wrong with me, it's a good feeling. Now on this subject, the church promotes personal revelation. If I feel my personal revelation tells me that I'm not doing anything wrong, then I am at peace with God.

Interesting claim.

On the internet it can be kind of hard to truly understand someone else motivations... Usually you need to ask questions, but if answers are not forth coming or your questions are ignored then one is forced to fill in the blanks.

A good way to fill in the blanks is to see if their actions match up with their words.

You say that you feel that God approves of you and your actions. That you are at peace and that the LDS church therefore must be wrong. You wouldn't be the first to reach this conclusion.

So it is an interesting claim. I agree that God loves you, I know this because I know he also loves me. He loves me in spite of the fact that I sin on a fairly regular basis. I know he loves me in spite of my many flaws and rebellions against him. But I also know that he wants be to stop sinning, he wants me to overcome my weakness and my temptations. So while I know he loves me he is waiting for me to show him how much I love him by doing what he asks.

Now lets look at your actions. You say you were raised in the Church so you you must know what the stance of the church is contrary to your choices. Therefore you must also know that an majority of the people at this LDS site would be in agreement with the churches teachings on the matter.

Yet you signed up, and then you started a thread stating how important our opinion was to you, but you have never explained why.

Therefore your words and actions do not match. You say you are at peace with yourself and with God but yet you came to us, whom you know will disagree. That is not the action of someone who is truly peace, because someone truly at peace has no need to get some kind of external validation from those that disagree (or even agree) with their choices.

Based on this I have to say, I don't think you are being entirely honest with yourself. While I am sure you know that God loves you I don't think you are a peace with your actions and choices in return. It is a guess on my part but it does fit your actions and words much better then what you appear to be trying to convince us of

Edited April 5, 2013 by estradling75

[Anddenex]

So excommunication only happens to people who are interested in staying in the church? This is new to me.

Sorry if this has already been touched upon, but wasn't sure, thus I am answering the question.

Excommunication can happen to members who want to remain in the Church, or it will happen to members who don't want to remain interested in the Church.

Excommunication, however, is one way members who are sincere in their worship toward God are able to come back into God's presence and full fellowship with his Kingdom. Thus, it is more likely an excommunicated member will be one who is still interested in the Church, but not always.