The Physical verses the Spiritual

[Traveler]

Sometimes I think we try too hard to separate the physical from the spiritual. One of my wife’s favorite TV programs is the “Biggest Loser”. Just in case anyone does not know – this program is about living a healthy lifestyle. One may think it is about losing weight but in actuality weight loss is a byproduct of healthy living. What surprised me is how many people that are overweight have difficulty with many other issues – like managing money, dealing with clinical depression, various psychological issues and social interactions.

Are we really beings that separated by our physical and spiritual natures. Can we separate the two in the way we live or does one directly affect the other? Can we be so spiritual that we ignore the physical of vice versa? Within our LDS culture we consider someone spiritually unworthy to enter the temple if they are not physically living by the physical abstinence the coffee, tea, alcohol or tobacco. We believe these damages or limits the influences of the spirit. But the Word of Wisdom is also about moderation in what we eat or in other words healthy living.

I have always believed that healthy eating habits are a spiritual discipline. In extending this thinking – it requires a spiritually strong person to discipline themselves with a healthy life style. Perhaps we need to amend this thinking and saying that a healthy life style contributes to spiritual strength. In other words one cannot be spiritual and neglect the temple that is their body (not take care of it).

So my question is quite specific – can someone be overweight such that their physical overweight condition does not affect them spiritually?

The Traveler

[mikbone]

Dunno,

I have done a few prolonged fasts though.

Each time I did and the longer the fasts were, the easier it was to focus upon the spirit...

[Guest]

I absolutely think that you can be overweight without it affecting you spiritually. However, I don't think you can be prideful without it affecting you spiritually.

[Dravin]

I have always believed that healthy eating habits are a spiritual discipline. In extending this thinking – it requires a spiritually strong person to discipline themselves with a healthy life style. Perhaps we need to amend this thinking and saying that a healthy life style contributes to spiritual strength. In other words one cannot be spiritual and neglect the temple that is their body (not take care of it).

So my question is quite specific – can someone be overweight such that their physical overweight condition does not affect them spiritually?

I think you err in limiting your line of thought to those who are overweight. One can live an unhealthy life style and be a normal healthy weight. For instance one can be a healthy weight but have high cholesterol as a consequence of life style. On the other hand one can be overweight but living the healthiest lifestyle they can but be hampered by glandular disorders or diabetes. I'm aware that glandular disorders and the like are a minority situation, but is the connection you are trying to draw between spirituality and being overweight or is it between spirituality and living an unhealthy lifestyle? There is considerable overlap but they aren't completely interchangeable.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Dravin

[NeuroTypical]

How about looking at it from another direction: Being overweight can be a symptom of something wrong spiritually.

[BadWolf]

So my question is quite specific – can someone be overweight such that their physical overweight condition does not affect them spiritually?

The Traveler

1) Absolutely

2) I think you have your causality backwards

- Its incrediably well documented that things like

* Poverty

* Depression

* Other psych issues

CAUSE EITHER severe weight gain or weight loss.

- Just be ause someone is poor & cannot afford healthy food ($), or exercise (time... Working 2+ jobs to survive doesn't leave a lot of time for anything except sleep) doesn't mean that they're spiritually bereft.

- Just because someone is too poor to afford appropriate medical care (surgeries to correct injuries that limit their activity level, physicals that catch thyroid issues, asthma medication, etc.), doesn't mean that they're lacking in spirit.

- Just be ause someone is living at the hospital with their sick kid, surviving on cafeteria food, and sitting for 20 hours a day (blowing up like a balloon or wasting away) doesn't mean that they aren't gripping onto the spirit for dear life.

Et Cetera.

The vast majority of people Ive come to know are either obese or ematiated not for lack of wanting, but for lack of ability. People just don't walk around carrying signs.

_______

On a personal level... (Warning, shouty capitals ***not directed at you*** but at the countless strangers whove caused my child incalculable pain.)

My former competitive athlete son is now morbidly obese. If. I. Hear. One. More. Time. "Oh. Well THAT'S okay, then." When some random person finds out he's on steroids that CAUSE obesity... I may have to seriously repent my actions in prison.

Really? REALLY??? You get to look down your nose at a little boy who would be DEAD without these medications and JUDGE WHETHER OT NOT ITS OKAY??? I don't owe you an explanation or his medical history. You and the DOZENS LIKE YOU every day that make him think he would rather be dead than fat ARE NOT OWED ANYTHING. now go drown puppies or kick babies or whatever else you do in your spare time you self righteous coporolyte!

And.... Breathe.

okay. I'm back!

CAN being grossly over or underweight be a sign of spiritual deficiency?

Sure.

But so can being in perfect health (worshiping one's body).

I suspect, however, that MOST people are not over/underweight due to a spiritual malady.

Instead, they're doing the best they can, with what they've got.

Edited April 15, 2013 by BadWolf
Last paragraph added... Keyboard disappeared!

[Seminarysnoozer]

Sometimes I think we try too hard to separate the physical from the spiritual. One of my wife’s favorite TV programs is the “Biggest Loser”. Just in case anyone does not know – this program is about living a healthy lifestyle. One may think it is about losing weight but in actuality weight loss is a byproduct of healthy living. What surprised me is how many people that are overweight have difficulty with many other issues – like managing money, dealing with clinical depression, various psychological issues and social interactions.

Are we really beings that separated by our physical and spiritual natures. Can we separate the two in the way we live or does one directly affect the other? Can we be so spiritual that we ignore the physical of vice versa? Within our LDS culture we consider someone spiritually unworthy to enter the temple if they are not physically living by the physical abstinence the coffee, tea, alcohol or tobacco. We believe these damages or limits the influences of the spirit. But the Word of Wisdom is also about moderation in what we eat or in other words healthy living.

I have always believed that healthy eating habits are a spiritual discipline. In extending this thinking – it requires a spiritually strong person to discipline themselves with a healthy life style. Perhaps we need to amend this thinking and saying that a healthy life style contributes to spiritual strength. In other words one cannot be spiritual and neglect the temple that is their body (not take care of it).

So my question is quite specific – can someone be overweight such that their physical overweight condition does not affect them spiritually?

The Traveler

There are also diseases like Narcissism or body dysmorphic disorder in which a person may spend a majority of their time and effort focused on their body appearance and "health" to the point of sacrificing family and friend's relationships and much of their resources. Like all things, I think there needs be moderation and doing it for the right reasons, to be good stewards over our stewardship.

If I work out daily to be sexually attractive, hoping for an extra-marital affair, then obviously that is for the wrong reason. Sometimes people even let themselves go as a way to hide or they may have a nervous condition turning to food for comfort. The problem is that man sees the outside and the Lord sees the inner man. Whereas man cannot judge the inner man by looking at the outside. ... that is the trap. That is what Satan hopes for; not only judging others but even ourselves based on the outer man.

The safest way to discuss it is in terms of being good stewards over the stewardship of the body, at least as best we can, which is at different levels for everyone.

[Traveler]

Interesting responses - especially considering that obesity (defined by the CDC as being overweight to the point of affecting one's health) is considered epidemic in the USA and is the #1 health problem - worse than alcoholism, drug addictions and acts of violence.

Also having traveled in many impoverished countries that are often refereed to as 3rd world nations - I never once encountered even a single case of obesity among the poor.

Not so long ago my wife was contracted type 1 diabetes. The medical profession told her that she could maintain her life style by monitoring and compensating properly for her blood sugar. That advice resulted in significant weight gain. She determined that something would have to change. The more she studied the more she discovered that we Americans have real bad eating problems - mostly involving carbohydrates.

She discovered that over 1500 carbs a day, was too much for her and that the insulin required to compensate was adding double to her weight gain.

Having made changes in our life, we have found that there is a stumbling block socializing. Eating is a big part of the socializing in the USA and that going out to eat with most friends - especially those even a little overweight are "uncomfortable" and most apologetic about what they are eating when they observe what we are eating. When we are in their home for a meal - what they serve is often problematic to the extreme. If they are in our home (especially children) they do not want to eat what we are normally eating in our home. In essence - two meal need to be prepared. A healthy meal for my wife - which I find very likable for myself - and a relatively unhealthy meal for our guests???

I have heard the excuses and then observed the same eating over 1,000 carbs at a single meal. That cannot be a spiritual benefit???

But there is another side of the coin - when I am on an century ride (bicycle ride at least 100 miles) I will consume and easly burn over 2,500 calories so I need a lot of carbs for such things. But 90% of the typical carbs will make me sick and cramp on the ride - I need to prepare something special. I took the older scouts in our ward on a 500 mile bicycle ride that we completed in 5 1/2 days. I warned them about what they would need to eat and we trained for months before the ride but they still complained about the food - for the first couple of days. By the end of the ride they had all learned their lesson about sugar snacks and processed foods.

But a lesson I have learned - it is easier encourage person that is addicted to tobacco or other substances to abstain from such things than it is to encourage encourage someone with bad eating habits coupled with low activity to eat healthy and exercise. For what ever reason - they believe such things are a personal attack.

Some interesting scriptures:

· Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

· Proverbs 13:18 Poverty and shame shall be to him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured.

· Proverbs 15:5 A fool despiseth his father’s instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent.

· Proverbs 15:10 Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.

· Proverbs 15:32 The ear that heareth the reproof of life abideth among the wise.

· Proverbs 15:32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.

· Proverbs 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.

· Proverbs 10:17 He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.

· Proverbs 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

If I am not mistaken obesity is defined as being 40% over one's ideal weight. So, if I should ideally weigh 180 lbs, I would not be obese until I weighted 252. Someone who would ideally weigh 100 lbs would reach the problem area at 140lbs.

Then yes, I'd suggest that obesity will very likely effect one's spiritual walk. Such weight will eventually effect health, and poor health hinders one's work--including those good and godly works we do for the Kingdom. The most common spiritual result is likely to be the subtle diminishing of how much we do and how well we do it. Additionally, we may miss some opportunities for service because we just don't feel up to it. Sadly, at its worst, we may blame God by saying, "I did not feel the Spirit was in that particular activity--at least for me." The truth may have been that we were too tired because we were not at optimal health.

All Christians would do well to apply the spiritual to their daily lives, including how we maintain our bodies, which are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Having said all that, I would be most hesitant to personally counsel another on this matter. Some people appear overweight for reasons beyond their control, and many are fully aware of their difficulty, and struggle daily to bring their condition under control. In many ways we are "in recovery" from food abuse, but live in a culture that embraces the abuse with abandon.

[Guest]

I've had some thoughts about this that aren't directly related, but sum up how I feel about what you're saying here, Traveler. Instead of highjacking your thread, I started a new one here:

http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/53250-some-thoughts-ive-had-recently-passing-judgment.html

[BadWolf]

I've spent most of my working life in the 3rd world. The poverty there is exceptionally different than poverty here.

In short: Their poor people don't eat. Our poor people eat junk.

_____________

Cheap foods in the US (random list)

Meats & protein sources

- Highest fat ground beef

- Almost no fat beef scraps

- Tinned Tuna

- Pasta Sauce w/ meat added

- Tinned Ravioli/Beefaroni

- Peanut Butter

- Rice&Beans (usually with lard for flavor)

- Chicken hot dogs

- Chicken corn dogs

- Chicken fingers

( I realize in some parts of the country a "chicken" is cheap, do a lot of people eat a lot of chicken. Here, Chicken/whole is apx $10 normal, or $15 organic. Processed meats are much cheaper here than fresh meats. I can buy an 8 piece fried chicken for $5, though.)

Cheapest "Fillers" (nearly all carbohydrates)

- Pasta

- Ramen / Cup Noodle / Knorr/ Lipton

- Rice (plain/white... Not served w legume)

- Beans (not served w grain).

- Kids cereals on sale (chocolate frosted sugar bomb type, healthy cereals are expensive)

- Potatoes

- Crisps/Chips/Fries & tater tots

- Worthless white bread

- Popcorn (pre packed w butter is cheaper than kernels popped on you stove:( )

Not exactly sure WHAT to call it

- Velveeta

- American Cheese (cheese flavored jello)

- Margarine

Fruits/Veg

- Tinned if at all. Frozen & fresh is too expensive.

Treats

- Same as treats for people who eat well AND

- Otterpops ($5 for 100, instead of $5 for 8)

- KoolAide

________________

I think I gained 10 pounds just WRITING this list.

There has been tons & tons of research into poverty & obesity. To sum up rather a lot of it;

- If you're poor in this country, you're probably fat (obese) AND malnourished (a lot of the increased fat storage & hunger is from missing dietary components), although you may be severely underweight, you're probably ALSO fat (thin, including visable hip socket thin, but BMI off the charts) due to decreased muscle mass & ketosis as your body eats itself.

- if you have a healthy diet, then you are typically being fed (work/ school/ neighbors) elsewhere,

--------------

There's just a REALLY BIG difference between making bad choices with your diet, and having those be the ONLY choice.

I've GOTTEN to eat the above list. (Its still a good thing, because being fat is better than starving to death)... Because I had no other choice. Its that, or don't eat.

Its not that I don't know better, its because I didn't have the money to buy healthy food.

I can also whip out a ceviche, sear shrimp that explode, or steak that melts in your mouth with Chimichurri to kill for. Capresé salad, stuffed mushrooms, broccoli Raab, roasted corn with Harissa that makes you contemplate life in a new way. I can feed you stuffed to the gills & still losing weight with flavorful joygasmic bite after bite. Your proteins clean, fats balanced or chosen, sugars complex or carbonized.

If you're in cold weather training, and need 18,000-24,000 caloroes a day? I can do that, too. In a way that won't make you feel bloated or like throwing up or needing to wash your mouth out with lemon to get rid of the constant grease film.

(Because, man oh man, can I cook. I'm humble, too!)

But its expensive to eat well, period.

Because eating well on the cheap... Is still about 10x-100x as expensive as just eating cheap.

If someone is eating oatmeal 3x per day, and stirring in peanut butter for flavor/fats/proteins... There is no way on earth my "eating well on the cheap" is something they can afford.