heavenly mother?

[sarah331]

That makes sense. Thanks!

[Anddenex]

I'm just curious but what about then addressing both? As Heavenly Parents?

I don't necessarily think it's wrong to pray to Heavenly Mother, other than it hasn't been revealed. There's something I like about, say, a mother in labor reaching out to HM in a very quintessential female situation.

In answer to this question, this is part of the reason why it is very important for us as members to be read and search out the words of the prophets.

President Hinckley (furthering the quote I previously provided):

“Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. That doctrine rests well with me.

“However, in light of the instruction we have received from the Lord Himself, I regard it as inappropriate for anyone in the Church to pray to our Mother in Heaven.

“The Lord Jesus Christ set the pattern for our prayers. In the Sermon on the Mount, He declared:

‘After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.’ (Matt. 6:9; italics added here and in following references.)

“When the resurrected Lord appeared to the Nephites and taught them, He said: ‘After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.’ (3 Ne. 13:9.)

[sarah331]

Thanks! Not yet a member but thanks for pointing out that talk for me :)

[Anddenex]

The problem we encounter is not with the pondering and thinking... Its when people start using those thoughts to act counter to what has been revealed. The most common manifestation of this in this case is praying to Heavenly Mother.

Agreed, this is the reason I mentioned in other post that we stick with the doctrine and what has been revealed.

[estradling75]

Agreed, this is the reason I mentioned in other post that we stick with the doctrine and what has been revealed.

Sorry Anddenex I was not meaning to come off as critical of what you posted. I used your post as a convent place to jump in an expand on the idea.

[LDSpunkrocker]

was i wrong in how i felt? this seemed like someone who waltzed into church after being inactive and tried to school the congregation on some deep doctrine that he had no authority to discuss..maybe im just being judgmental. i do believe we have a heavenly mother i just had never heard it discussed in church or as a testimony during sacrament meeting.

[Wingnut]

was i wrong in how i felt?

I don't think you can ever be wrong about your own feelings.

[Anddenex]

Sorry Anddenex I was not meaning to come off as critical of what you posted. I used your post as a convent place to jump in an expand on the idea.

I didn't interpret your response as being critical, so no worries there :) .

I just didn't know if my other responses were read and was clarifying the connection with my other posts.

Sorry for the confusion also.

[Guest]

I happen to think that feelings can be wrong, or at least misleading. But in this case, I would personally have felt the same way. It's looking beyond the mark and not based on concrete doctrine, so in my opinion it doesn't have place in Fast and Testimony meeting. In fact, there is a fairly recent letter from the general authorities saying that the meetings should be used to testify of Christ, and the Restoration.

[garryw]

About 6 months ago I got sealed to my wife. During the "pep talk" the sealer gave, he pointed to my wife and said "without her your priesthood will be of no use to you in the hereafter".

yikes.

DC 131:4 says without marriage you are damned.

Anyway, I don't think there is any debate as to the existence of Heavenly Mother. But it's not a good topic for testimony meeting. Wrong place, wrong time.

[sarah331]

Hmmm so while, in the context the OP wrote, I can understand the hesitation to bring up Heavenly Mother in a testimony meeting, what if the concept of Heavenly Parents IS a deep part of your testimony? Doesn't it make sense to mention Her, hopefully leaving out the politics of it? I'm thinking something along the lines of "I know I have a Father and Mother in Heaven."

[Wingnut]

I happen to think that feelings can be wrong, or at least misleading.

I don't think our feelings are ever wrong. I try very carefully to not ever tell people that what they're feeling is wrong, and I get very upset when I'm told that my feelings are wrong. I dunno, maybe I'm not explaining myself well. I think it's almost never wrong to feel what we feel. We can't always control how we feel.

I think sometimes we can make wrong conclusions based on our feelings, though. We can control how we react to our feelings. We can think that our feelings mean something deeper when they may just be completely arbitrary (I'm not speaking of the OP or any specific situation, just generally).

[ElectofGod]

There is a hymn that mentions heavenly mother. (sorry if already stated)

I say leave it out unless the spirit directs you to say it.I remember as a missionary, one of the few times I was blessed with the tongue of angels where I was prompted to talk about heavenly mother. It is very easy though during testimony meeting to get carried away through emotion instead of the spirit though as someone said.

[Blackmarch]

so, this sunday during fast and testimony meeting this guy got up to bear his testimony, he starts by talking how he hasn't been active in many years then he starts going on about how important heavenly mother was and how great it was to see two sister pray at conference and that he had heard the church was changing and that he wanted to come see for himself, i really felt uncomfortable and you could see it on everyone's face but for some reason nobody did anything, he also stated he knew this from revelation, im pretty sure this is not doctrine as taught by church leadership even if i think its a likely idea but i got such a creeped out feeling about this guy. i prayed silently for him to stop, this is a ward with many recent converts and i think it could be damaging...maybe i was wrong but he cut it short and got down, i dont know what to think of this... ive only been active again for a month. has anyone else experienced similar things? sorry this is more rambling than coherent

Different is always uncomfortable to some degree. But ya any time someone goes off into the boonies doctrine wise or goes on a recount of a roadtrip it can get a little worrying. However in this case from what i'm reading here I don't think you have to worry too much.

While we don't have any scripture that lays out that we have a heavenly mother explicitly... We have tons of of stuff pointing to it pretty strongly.

[tumbledquartz]

Women prayed in conference, but didn't they still address Heavenly Father? Seems like nothing real has changed, since women have been praying in church meetings as long as I can remember, at least.

As far as speculating about Heavenly Mother, I personally have given it a lot of thought lately, just because so many people are talking about it and I have a family member who left the church because she thought women should hold the Priesthood.

My totally wild speculation is that there are reasons for the division of labor (i.e. men holding the Priesthood and women not) we see today that we just can't comprehend and aren't ready to be told yet. For instance, this life is to prepare and teach us to become gods and goddesses, so maybe in the eternal worlds, men and women have different roles to play. Maybe the heavenly mothers up there are delegated the responsibility to raise and teach the spirit children, and the heavenly fathers are delegated the responsibility to watch over and help the children who have mortal bodies and are on earths, being tested. Maybe that is why we are told to pray to Heavenly Father instead of Heavenly Mother.

Like I said, wild speculations, all. But I like thinking about it.

[pam]

that he had heard the church was changing and that he wanted to come see for himself, i really felt uncomfortable and you could see it on everyone's face but for some reason nobody did anything, he also stated he knew this from revelation,

I think I would have been more concerned about his statements that the church was changing. The church isn't changing inasmuch as maybe some things that have always been tradition might change. Doctrine hasn't changed. Plus the comment about how he knew this because of revelation. That would be personal revelation and doesn't pertain to everyone.

[ElectofGod]

I think I would have been more concerned about his statements that the church was changing. The church isn't changing inasmuch as maybe some things that have always been tradition might change. Doctrine hasn't changed. Plus the comment about how he knew this because of revelation. That would be personal revelation and doesn't pertain to everyone.

You are right doctrine doesn't change.

What happens is the Lord takes things away the more wicked a society becomes and less obedient they become. Moses had the opportunity to give the higher priesthood blessings to the people. They rejected it so it was taken away. Anytime something changes in our day its not because it changes but because its "taken away" due to ignorance and unbelief. The penalties in the temple is an example of this.

Still just because the Lord takes something away, the blessings are still available. We still can receive all the things the Lord wants us to and by following his prophets we would, if as a society they would just listen, start to have the great "mysteries of godliness revealed" as a group (zion) instead of individually. Zion will be a beautiful place. i just hope I am worthy enough myself to selected to go there (either on this side of the veil or the other).

As joseph smith said, "The rich man receives his [signs, tokens, names, penalties] ordinances in the temple, the poor man receives them on the mountaintop" (Physical versus spiritual ordinances)

...men holding the Priesthood and women not

I really don't understandt his feminist movement at all.

What can men do that women can't?

The only thing men do is hold particular PHYSICAL callings of apostleship, prophets, 70, bishop... Mmm well what do men do that women already do but don't realize it?

Women:

Can give healing blessings but advised to let a male one do so if they are present.

Can officiate in the rights of the priesthood, (wait how!?)... Inititatories, endowment, 2nd anointing, etc... Therefore they are exercising the rights of the priesthood. (I can pull quotes up on this)

There are prophetesses.

There are female apostles (speculation on this one, who did jesus first appear to during his ressurection)

Have all the gifts of the spirit

So whats left? Just a few "physical" and "visible", (carnal) leadership positions. Sorry but heaven is all spiritual not carnal. Also anyone who has learned what eve is symbolic of in the temple will realize why the world is that way. Adam (symbolic of the spirit), Eve (symbolic of the body).. usually sometimes it can be interchanged.

I remember a vision by some apostle in the early days where he saw the throne of Adam and Eve. When he looked at the throne he saw adam and eve on the same throne. They were not literally the same being but symbolically they were doing all things as one. I think this is how heavenly mother works with God.

Edited April 20, 2013 by ElectofGod

[tumbledquartz]

I really don't understandt his feminist movement at all.

What can men do that women can't?

The only thing men do is hold particular PHYSICAL callings of apostleship, prophets, 70, bishop... Mmm well what do men do that women already do but don't realize it?

Women:

Can give healing blessings but advised to let a male one do so if they are present.

Can officiate in the rights of the priesthood, (wait how!?)... Inititatories, endowment, 2nd anointing, etc... Therefore they are exercising the rights of the priesthood. (I can pull quotes up on this)

There are prophetesses.

There are female apostles (speculation on this one, who did jesus first appear to during his ressurection)

Have all the gifts of the spirit

So whats left? Just a few "physical" and "visible", (carnal) leadership positions. Sorry but heaven is all spiritual not carnal. Also anyone who has learned what eve is symbolic of in the temple will realize why the world is that way. Adam (symbolic of the spirit), Eve (symbolic of the body).. usually sometimes it can be interchanged.

I remember a vision by some apostle in the early days where he saw the throne of Adam and Eve. When he looked at the throne he saw adam and eve on the same throne. They were not literally the same being but symbolically they were doing all things as one. I think this is how heavenly mother works with God.

So you can't see how a person who doesn't have the spirit would look at a sea of men leading the church telling us all what to do, would think there is something unfair about that? You don't see how a person who hasn't risen to the same level of faith and trust in God as you have would hear that women "can" give blessings but are advised to let a man do it if he is there might see that as a little condescending?

What does someone have other than what is visible, and physical, if they don't yet have faith and a testimony of the church? I don't agree with the feminist movement in its entirety, but sometimes we do things because they are the culture of the church, such as having all men pray in General Conference, and when someone comes along and says, "I don't think it's gospel doctrine that only men pray in church - why don't we have some women pray?" then they change it. The fact that those same people probably have an endgame agenda of getting women to hold the Priesthood and have leadership positions in the church makes me uncomfortable, but that particular change is fine, because it wasn't doctrine, it was culture.

The part you said about Adam and Eve is running into speculation, though, I would say. You say that people who realize what Adam and Eve are symbolic of in the temple will know why the world is the way it is, and that Adam is symbolic of the sprit and Eve is symbolic of the body, except when it's interchanged and Adam is symbolic of the body and Eve of the spirit? First of all, I don't even really know what you're trying to get at. The temple has many symbols, and I've heard prophets say that after sixty years of attending, they're just starting to understand it, so I think it's a little out there for you to make it sound like anybody who is anybody will have realized why the world is the way it is because of things we learn in the temple.

[ElectofGod]

So you can't see how a person who doesn't have the spirit would look at a sea of men leading the church telling us all what to do, would think there is something unfair about that? You don't see how a person who hasn't risen to the same level of faith and trust in God as you have would hear that women "can" give blessings but are advised to let a man do it if he is there might see that as a little condescending?

What does someone have other than what is visible, and physical, if they don't yet have faith and a testimony of the church? I don't agree with the feminist movement in its entirety, but sometimes we do things because they are the culture of the church, such as having all men pray in General Conference, and when someone comes along and says, "I don't think it's gospel doctrine that only men pray in church - why don't we have some women pray?" then they change it. The fact that those same people probably have an endgame agenda of getting women to hold the Priesthood and have leadership positions in the church makes me uncomfortable, but that particular change is fine, because it wasn't doctrine, it was culture.

The part you said about Adam and Eve is running into speculation, though, I would say. You say that people who realize what Adam and Eve are symbolic of in the temple will know why the world is the way it is, and that Adam is symbolic of the sprit and Eve is symbolic of the body, except when it's interchanged and Adam is symbolic of the body and Eve of the spirit? First of all, I don't even really know what you're trying to get at. The temple has many symbols, and I've heard prophets say that after sixty years of attending, they're just starting to understand it, so I think it's a little out there for you to make it sound like anybody who is anybody will have realized why the world is the way it is because of things we learn in the temple.

Yes I do agree with you on this. There are way to many cultural things in the church. I was referring to those who do have the gospel and still feel that way and understand it (nobody ever does technically, all are deceived in some degree). For those who don't understand it can look at it as "a church ran by men" or who have not matured enough in the "meat" of the gospel...

I was addressing it from one angle. I do agree with what you were saying. Didn't mean to make it sound like, however it might of came across lol. Thanks for addressing the other side.

There are many layers of symbolism in the temple. There are entire essays on it. But hte temple is not to be understood carnally but spiritually. The first time you go through the endowment (or read the gensis story, moses etc) it will come off carnally. So one can study their entire life and learn different things because of this. I am only unfolding one layer of that understanding. This is why the world looks at the problems with the church because they only understand the appearance of it all. The carnal part of the church or understanding.

Its a physical ordinance that means nothing by itself. (just like baptism means nothing without the other half, baptism by fire (obedience - doeth the will of the father) )

Referring to adam and eve. I can point you somewhere if you are interested but not to get off topic I won't dwell on it. I will paste from a book instead and leave it at that. First half adds to were the traditions of man come from. Second half adds to what I was referring to which is off topic. Sorry I introduced something that should be its own thread.

The temple Book 2: By Eleazer

Many Levels of Understanding. One thing that one must understand when approaching the endowment or any of the saving ordinances is that there are many levels of understanding. Sometimes what appears as a simple story or ordinance has many deeper spiritual levels of understanding if one is prepared and willing to find them. In the case of the endowment, the creation of man and his state of being is presented as a parable which is not very different than that contained in the book of Genesis or other places in scripture, but to which a few things are added. Unfortunately, many temple attendees do not take the creation parable, nor the tokens, signs, and penalties (penalties were recently removed from the ceremony) at much more than face value. Many view the tokens and signs in a fairly literal fashion, thinking they are like passwords, such as one might receive when joining an exclusive club or organization, despite the fact that many secret societies and brotherhoods use these same tokens and signs. The temple building itself is viewed in the same literal manner and few realize the deeper symbolism behind it. Many feel fairly comfortable in just finding time in their busy schedules to attend the temple regularly, when in actuality they have damned themselves by walking in darkness at noonday. While this might sound harsh, it hopefully will become more obvious that this is the actual case after reading this entire essay and then making further discoveries on ones own. (pg 16)

...

Carnal versus Spiritual Understanding. Speaking in very general terms, there are two opposing ways to look at things. Again, the phrases "carnally minded" versus "spiritually minded" are sometimes used. Other times, words such as "external" versus "internal", or "profane" versus "holy" are used (pg 18)

...

Carnal man sees the creation parable (in the endowment) little more than a historical account of the creation of the earth outside of him and how man came to be. He sees the fall of man as a literal event caused by eating from a certain tree that was prohibited. He sees the way back to God in the context of all the things that he must DO rather than what he must BE.

Spiritual man realizes that all that is taught in the endowment is about he, himself. He realizes that he is the man Adam spoken of in the creation story. On a deeper level of understanding, he understands that man is a trinity composed of body, mind, and spirit, and realizes that Adam represents his own spirit and that Eve represents his own body. He sees that this is why Eve must be subject to Adam because the body must be subject to the spirit, otherwise there is death. He understands that God is a part of this trinity and that he (Adam; the spirit) can hear his voice if he will just pay attention and listen. (pg21)

I have been talking about how the world is understood versus how God understands. This I believe is why we shouldn't talk about heavenly mother more than the spirit directs. There definitely is one but we shouldn't teach it. Thats what JFS said about this.

Edited April 20, 2013 by ElectofGod

[tumbledquartz]

I like how you said that all are deceived in some degree. Everyone's own unique experiences and way of looking at the world will make them lean one way or another, struggle with certain doctrines and not others, etc.

[Maureen]

He realizes that he is the man Adam spoken of in the creation story. On a deeper level of understanding, he understands that man is a trinity composed of body, mind, and spirit, and realizes that Adam represents his own spirit and that Eve represents his own body.... ...He understands that God is a part of this trinity and that he (Adam; the spirit) can hear his voice if he will just pay attention and listen.

ElectofGod, I'm just asking because I'm curious; what or who represents the man's mind?

M.

[ElectofGod]

ElectofGod, I'm just asking because I'm curious; what or who represents the man's mind?

M.

It entirely depends on what is being discussed.

The trinity represent the mind of God. So at the beginning. God delegates to Jehovah delegates to "Michael", or "peter james and john" (which are just symbolic of ANY true messenger), or Sometimes the Lord is the one delegating to two below him. Either case "the three" represent (symbolic) of the mind of God. Also could say when our spirits and body are ONE and we receive God's spirit (holy ghost or HIS spirit) we become one with the mind of god.

Joseph Smith in the lectures on faith defined the Holy Spirit as the mind of God (different than the holy Ghost). This actually really opens up the scriptures when you realize this. I just learned this the past few weeks.

In order to understand the meaning behind much of the endowment, as well as many passages of scripture, one must comprehend that mortal (and spiritual) man comprises a trinity of being. Sometimes the scriptures use the words "body, mind, and spirit." In this case, the body is the physical body, the spirit is the spirit that resides in the body, and the mind is that part of us that is God. Sometimes in the endowment Adam represents the physical body, Jehovah the spirit, and Eloheim the mind of God. Other times, Eve represents the physical body, Adam the spirit, and the Jehovah the mind. It is important to realize that this concept of a trinity of being is repeated throughout the endowment and throughout the scriptures.

I just post a link to a an essay by the same guy. Follow the spirit to learn what it wants you to learn if you don't feel comfortable reading it, maybe the spirit is telling you to focus on other persuits first. Its important to not be hasty in the things of heaven (Im guilty hehe ). However, the link below to an essay does answer the "basics" of what I posted.

True Order of Prayer

(If this goes against board rules I will PM it instead)