Spirit Matter

[justinc]

I was having a conversation with a Latter-day Saint who believes that our Spirits are made up of matter. His justification for this is D&C 131:7-8.

I'm curious how this would work? How does a material Spirit body fit with our material Flesh and Bone body in any sense? Do the Spirit particles sit between the flesh and bone particles? If you loose an arm are you loosing part of your Spirit body as well?

Just curious, I hold to the classical Christian view that the Spirit is immaterial.

Edited May 5, 2013 by justinc

[Anddenex]

I was having a conversation with a Latter-day Saint who believes that our Spirits are made up of matter. His justification for this is D&C 131:7-8.

As Latter-day Saints, we know, our spirits are spirit matter which is eternal. Other evidence we find in our scriptures, Book of Mormon, Ether 3: 6 - 13, which shares with us an example of our Lord visiting the Brother of Jared before he received his earthly tabernacle.

Verse 16, "Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my dspirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh."

I'm curious how this would work? How does a material Spirit body fit with our material Flesh and Bone body in any sense? Do the Spirit particles sit between the flesh and bone particles? If you loose an arm are you loosing part of your Spirit body as well?

Just curious, I hold to the classical Christian view that the Spirit is immaterial.

Curiosity killed the cat.

We don't know how this works, nothing has been revealed regarding the questions you ask. We are combined and our spirit enters our body. Where a spirit body is connected and how they are connected appears to be irrelevant questions, however still fun to ponder, the important truth is that they are connected.

If we lose an appendage, we have no doctrine or revealed truth whether or not we lose a portion also of our spirit body as well. I would venture to say "No" we would not be losing our spirit body as well. Similar thought, if a person is pierced with a spear, will their be a hole in the spirit body as well. Don't know, and probably will not be revealed in this life.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Anddenex

[Lakumi]

I was having a conversation with a Latter-day Saint who believes that our Spirits are made up of matter. His justification for this is D&C 131:7-8.

I'm curious how this would work? How does a material Spirit body fit with our material Flesh and Bone body in any sense? Do the Spirit particles sit between the flesh and bone particles? If you loose an arm are you loosing part of your Spirit body as well?

Just curious, I hold to the classical Christian view that the Spirit is immaterial.

never heard that before, closest to something like that I have heard was in Wicca but... twas a little different.

[phi39]

I read a while back that for LDS, spirit is a higher form of matter. For them there actually is no such thing as the immaterial unless you count concepts. I don't think they would even consider intelligences to be immaterial, at least not in the sense that we would. Intelligences, spirit and physical matter are all eternal things in and of themselves, independent from God. God forms them to create, and he himself is even "made-of" the same stuff. God exists within the universe (or multi-verse?) along with us.

Their view I think is surprisingly materialistic, sharing a lot in common with ancient paganism and modern science. Of course, we classicals are the weird ones, worshiping a God who transcends creation, calls it into being and holds it together by his power, because of his grace and for his glory.

[phi39]

If we lose an appendage, we have no doctrine or revealed truth whether or not we lose a portion also of our spirit body as well. I would venture to say "No" we would not be losing our spirit body as well. Similar thought, if a person is pierced with a spear, will their be a hole in the spirit body as well. Don't know, and probably will not be revealed in this life.

Question: When Jesus rose from the dead and the disciples felt his wounds, was that his spiritual body or actual physical body that was beaten and killed a few days before?

[pam]

Physical body

[justinc]

We need to be careful how we define things here. LDS belief is that Spirit body and Flesh & Bone body are both material and therefore physical.

Edited May 5, 2013 by justinc

[justinc]

If something is material it makes sense to ask "where is it?" I just wonder in LDS belief where the material Spirit body is located and how it relates to our Flesh and Bone body?

[bytebear]

I think the general perception is that the spirit is a finer type of matter that cannot be perceived in our physical world. There are of course exceptions, some doctrinal mostly with the appearance of Jesus in his pre-mortal form. But also of Satan and other spirits or ghosts who have appeared and interacted with the physical world. Mormons think of two worlds, physical and spirit, but the physical world would all be dead if it were not for spirits which contain life and consciousness connected with our physical form. Ultimately the resurrection will permanently join the physical form to the spirit.

[Anddenex]

If something is material it makes sense to ask "where is it?" I just wonder in LDS belief where the material Spirit body is located and how it relates to our Flesh and Bone body?

You misunderstand. The irrelevance of the question is that there is no answer to the question, and in this life none will probably be given because the answer is not essential to one's salvation.

For example, which is more important knowing how the atonement actually forgives sins, or knowing that the atonement forgives sins?

The first question is irrelevant because it doesn't need to be known in order to be saved, it is not essential to know, and we probably will not know, in this life, how the atonement is able to clear away any of our sins. The second question is relevant because it is necessary to be saved.

As mentioned, these are fun questions to ponder, but how our spirits are attached to our bodies is irrelevant.

It appears, one might then ask or imply, if a person is unable to answer the question, then the initial doctrine must then be false, otherwise a person would be able to give an answer. Whether I know how a spirit attaches to our body, or how the Lord's atonement actually forgives sins doesn't negate the doctrine that The Lord forgives sins and that our spirits and our bodies are united.

[rameumptom]

In a scientific sense, all things are made of matter, which is just a form of energy (E = mc2). Nothing can be created nor destroyed, only converted into another form.

Our spirits would be refined matter or energy. Of course, Mormons also believe that we are made of the same stuff that God is made of, except he is of the most purified matter/energy.

[SanctitasDeo]

When I bother to think about it, I think the way rameumpton does. It is kind of an interesting idea, but it doesn't mean much in day to day life. It is irrelevant to our salvation.

[justinc]

the answer is not essential to one's salvation.

Nor is believing that we have material Spirits.

[mikbone]

I was having a conversation with a Latter-day Saint who believes that our Spirits are made up of matter. His justification for this is D&C 131:7-8.

I'm curious how this would work? How does a material Spirit body fit with our material Flesh and Bone body in any sense? Do the Spirit particles sit between the flesh and bone particles? If you loose an arm are you loosing part of your Spirit body as well?

Just curious, I hold to the classical Christian view that the Spirit is immaterial.

Are you equally curious about Dark Matter and Dark Energy. Which by the way physicists believe composes greater than 75% of the cosmos. Neither of which we have any proof that exist...

There is more out there that we don't understand than what we do understand.

[Anddenex]

Nor is believing that we have material Spirits.

Correct, however the truth of our spirits being eternal matter has been revealed.

As I shared, your question is fun to ponder, but nothing has been revealed.

[justinc]

Are you equally curious about Dark Matter and Dark Energy. Which by the way physicists believe composes greater than 75% of the cosmos. Neither of which we have any proof that exist...

There is more out there that we don't understand than what we do understand.

I take it they have good reason to postulate dark matter & energy apart from evidence as it provides explanitory power?

I'm not equally curious about dark matter & energy since they are not at odds with my worldview. They fit quite comfortably. I am however curious about the materiality of the Spirit becouse I feel it at odds with my worldview.

Hopefully that explains why I'm interested, please don't take offence.

[justinc]

In a scientific sense, all things are made of matter, which is just a form of energy (E = mc2). Nothing can be created nor destroyed, only converted into another form.

Our spirits would be refined matter or energy. Of course, Mormons also believe that we are made of the same stuff that God is made of, except he is of the most purified matter/energy.

Science is the study of nature and therefore has nothing to say about the supernatural which trancends nature. Science helps us determine things within the material universe we live in. For example, through science we may conclude that the universe (including all time, space & matter) all came into existence about 14billion years ago at the big bang. It is only through philosophy that we may look for a cause for the universe. Since time, space and matter began - whatever caused them must by definition by timeless, spaceless and immaterial - the God I believe in.

Again, please don't be offended, dialogue is healthy :)

[Magen_Avot]

How does a material Spirit body fit with our material Flesh and Bone body in any sense? Do the Spirit particles sit between the flesh and bone particles? If you loose an arm are you loosing part of your Spirit body as well?.

As has been stated, there is no official doctrine that answers your questions.

That said, there are probably more opinions on this topic than people to hold the views. I do know there are threads that delve into non-doctrinal opinions/experiences on spirits and ghosts which you may find interesting.

But there is no definitive answer, either by science or revelation to your questions.

Are you asking for opinions? I have about 12.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Science is the study of nature and therefore has nothing to say about the supernatural which trancends nature. Science helps us determine things within the material universe we live in. For example, through science we may conclude that the universe (including all time, space & matter) all came into existence about 14billion years ago at the big bang. It is only through philosophy that we may look for a cause for the universe. Since time, space and matter began - whatever caused them must by definition by timeless, spaceless and immaterial - the God I believe in.

Again, please don't be offended, dialogue is healthy :)

Yes, and by definition 'fine matter' is not seen by science and therefore is not measured by science even in theory such as 'dark matter' or 'dark energy' etc. Fine matter is truly supernatural.

To give my opinion about an earlier question; you asked how does the spirit relate to the body, I would say the via the brain for a number of reasons. Again this is opinion and not doctrine but the brain is the only organ that cannot be transplanted. Also when the brain is not working correctly such as with people that have Down's syndrome they are not held accountable. That would make sense if the spirit cannot sufficiently influence the brain.

Our only connection with this fine matter is through the spirit. Spiritual things are discerned spiritually and not physically. Our own spirit speaks to our physical being and therefore there can be physical manifestations of the spirit influence such as feeling a burning in the bosom or when tears fill the eyes during sacrament meeting. But the communication is through spiritual pathways and then to body. A transformation of the body can make it so the physical can perceive the spiritual but at the point of transformation the physical (mortal realm) is not 'physical' (physical universe material). Even for our spirits to communicate with this corrupted mortal physical body there had to be a change, a fall. In other words, the two entities do not naturally exist together, a spirit and a corrupted body unless the spirit becomes corrupted (fallen) or the body is made higher. This is why we cannot see fine matter through corrupted means - the natural world. Any physical science theories about dark matter, dark energy, time-space continuum ect. are based in corrupted world physics and may or may not be properties that remain in the spirit world. We are not currently on the same playing field.

[ElectofGod]

As for knowing about our spirits. That is partially necessary for our salvation because it allows us to know what and who we worship. Also helps us know what and who we are that makes life so important. We may not know the how it works but the Why is important.

D&C 130:22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Like said, there are dozens of papers, lectures by prophets, etc on this subject that someone can direct you to.

There are three elements we know of.

Body

Spirit

Intelligence (Entity called by some in the sciences)

[justinc]

Yes, and by definition 'fine matter' is not seen by science and therefore is not measured by science even in theory such as 'dark matter' or 'dark energy' etc. Fine matter is truly supernatural.

It hardly transcends nature since it exists within the physical universe which came into existence at the Big Bang. If one had a microscope good enough we could see spirit matter, except its so 'fine' we cant see it right now.

[justinc]

As for knowing about our spirits. That is partially necessary for our salvation because it allows us to know what and who we worship. Also helps us know what and who we are that makes life so important. We may not know the how it works but the Why is important.

Like said, there are dozens of papers, lectures by prophets, etc on this subject that someone can direct you to.

There are three elements we know of.

Body

Spirit

Intelligence (Entity called by some in the sciences)

God is a Spirit (John 4:24)

a spirit hath not flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)

Thats the traditional Christian take on things.

[ElectofGod]

God is a Spirit (John 4:24)

a spirit hath not flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)

Thats the traditional Christian take on things.

Yes. I know what the traditional Christian take is. Which is why I am glad for the doctrine and covenants that corrects the mis-information out there. Traditional Christians also stick to the Bible books and never look at any of the "banned books of the bible", "dead sea scrolls", "Apocrypha", which have many further teachings not contained in the bible. And why? Because the Nicene creed voted on some "books" they wanted.

a spirit hath not flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)

Exactly, A Body has flesh and bones. The spirit does not. Sums it up nicely. Also "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". Shows a disconnect between the two.

What are you exactly looking for? Just like thinking about this stuff or trying to find a flaw/correctness in the reasoning behind it?

[justinc]

Yes. I know what the traditional Christian take is. Which is why I am glad for the doctrine and covenants that corrects the mis-information out there. Traditional Christians also stick to the Bible books and never look at any of the "banned books of the bible", "dead sea scrolls", "Apocrypha", which have many further teachings not contained in the bible. And why? Because the Nicene creed voted on some "books" they wanted.

a spirit hath not flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)

Exactly, A Body has flesh and bones. The spirit does not. Sums it up nicely. Also "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". Shows a disconnect between the two.

What are you exactly looking for? Just like thinking about this stuff or trying to find a flaw/correctness in the reasoning behind it?

Luke 29:39 is where Jesus confirms he has a flesh-bone body and that spirits do not. If God is a spirit it follows that therefore God does not have a flesh-bone body.

I love studying what others believe and how it relates to my worldview. Christians are not bound to the Creeds, rather they can look to the historical biblical records to discover doctrine. In saying that Tom Wright an eminent New Testament scholar does often appeal to records outside the biblical accounts to give insight. Furthermore there are good reasons for rejecting such books, and probably, for the same reasons the Latter-day Saints have not accepted them into the standard works.

[sarah331]

I didn't read all the replies.

But if you think physiologically, we are made of nerves, biochemistry, and water. This, plus something we don't know scientifically yet, create us as "soul."

So it would make sense to me that the "something we don't know scientifically yet" would also be made of matter. That seems logical to me.

And as a caveat, I do hope we never discover that "thing" that makes a soul -- I do hope it is a higher matter that is always above our Earthly understanding. :) It helps make Earthly life a little magical.