Is Obesity a Choice?

[Traveler]

We have had numerous discussions about agency, moral agency, free will and choice and how these things fit into our spiritual development and eternal salvation. We have also discussed free will verses determinism as well as the evils of being judgmental. In the full light of such things and with understanding of the ramifications and consequences (both physical and spiritual) of exercising choice – Is obesity a choice? Is it a choice in opposition to being physically fit? Is obesity a spiritual choice?

The Traveler

[pam]

We've also had numerous discussions ad nauseum regarding obesity.

[Dravin]

Is obesity a choice?

In most cases arguably yes, but not all. Unless we're being extreme about it and telling those rare cases where it's a glandular disorder, other body malfunction, medication, or what have you where the choice is between being overweight or risking poorer health or death that they're choosing obesity over the alternative (poorer health or death). I suppose it'd be up to a physician to figure out if a healthier weight is achievable in those rare circumstance or simply difficult.

I do have to say though that there seems to be a certain focus with obesity, why isn't the question about maintaining the body in general? Perhaps because it's so visible? After all you can't see that Brother Smith, who looks healthy, actually has horrible cholesterol levels because of his diet.

Is obesity a spiritual choice?

Do you mean a choice with spiritual consequences? If not, can you please explain what you mean?

Edited May 8, 2013 by Dravin

[Wordnerd]

Obesity can have many causes, only one of which is a conscious decision to eat to excess, ie gluttony. Gluttony is a choice and a sin, however obesity is simply a consequence of that choice, or a symptom of medical (including mental health) issues. Therefore obesity cannot in itself be considered a sin, or used as a yardstick to judge others. I also believe excessive dieting and exercising to be sinful, because of its extreme focus on physical appearance, rather than focusing on health, strength, and spiritual wellness, which is what should be our goal.

[Guest]

This is like the discussion on pescetarianism.

It is about health - not about the number on the scale. Obesity is in indicator of an imbalance. If you know what's causing it, you can do something about it. But, it doesn't mean that the only right way is lowering the number on that scale - you and your doctor can discuss what needs to be done and what indicators of success is appropriate for your specific circumstance.

Compared to Clint Eastwood, President Monson looks fat. So?

[Guest]

I'd also like to know what you mean by "spiritual choice", and why you bring it up so often.

[Leah]

And I would like to know why so many people are concerned about the "health" of others - even total strangers - based solely on their personal perception of what is an aesthetically pleasing (to them) size. And what they are so sure is the cause of that size (gluttony).

Are they not also concerned about the health those who are underweight? What about concern for the health of someone such as myself? I have MS and cannot afford treatment. Do people in my situation rate concern for our health? Or is the lack of ability to afford healthcare somehow less offensive than a fat person? Is there concern for the health of a person such as a client we currently have....who gained excessive weight due to necessary treatment with steroids. She has a real and serious health issue. Many overweight people are actually healthy and fit...with the same numbers and abilities as their skinnier counterparts. Why the concern for the "health" of a person who may actually be healthy?

[mikbone]

And I would like to know why so many people are concerned about the "health" of others - even total strangers - based solely on their personal perception of what is an aesthetically pleasing (to them) size. And what they are so sure is the cause of that size (gluttony).

Well, lets take for instance smoking. Its not my decision if others smoke. But smoking has caused a tremendous strain on our health care system. The amount of dollars that are spent on the consequences of smoking are staggering. COPD, Cancer, Emphysema, Asthma, Peripheral Vascular Disease, Coronary artery disease, etc, etc, etc,

You must realize that taxes pay for a majority of these patients health care. And who pays taxes? We do.

If you believe that there are no health care issues associated with obesity then you are fooling yourself...

The Lancet, Volume 378, Issue 9793, Pages 815 - 825, 27 August 2011

Health and economic burden of the projected obesity trends in the USA and the UK

Y Claire Wang MD a , Prof Klim McPherson PhD b, Tim Marsh PG Dip d, Steven L Gortmaker PhD c, Martin Brown PhD d

Summary

Rising prevalence of obesity is a worldwide health concern because excess weight gain within populations forecasts an increased burden from several diseases, most notably cardiovascular diseases, diabetes, and cancers. In this report, we used a simulation model to project the probable health and economic consequences in the next two decades from a continued rise in obesity in two ageing populations—the USA and the UK. These trends project 65 million more obese adults in the USA and 11 million more obese adults in the UK by 2030, consequently accruing an additional 6—8·5 million cases of diabetes, 5·7—7·3 million cases of heart disease and stroke, 492 000—669 000 additional cases of cancer, and 26—55 million quality-adjusted life years forgone for USA and UK combined. The combined medical costs associated with treatment of these preventable diseases are estimated to increase by $48—66 billion/year in the USA and by £1·9—2 billion/year in the UK by 2030. Hence, effective policies to promote healthier weight also have economic benefits.

Edited May 8, 2013 by mikbone

[Guest]

I wish lds.net has the @mention feature so I can tell Vort to check this post:

I was just reminded of the last UFC fight...

There's Check Kongo, lean, mean, fighting machine complete with 6-pack abs fighting Roy Nelson, tremendous jelly gut hanging to cover his MMA fight shorts waist band. Jiggly triceps supporting short arms all being held up by jiggly stubby legs.

Guess who won?

So yeah...

But, don't use Nelson as an excuse to be ignorant about PROPER NUTRITION and EXERCISE!

[Traveler]

I'd also like to know what you mean by "spiritual choice", and why you bring it up so often.

I believe physical choices are choices made because of physical influences and likewise spiritual choices are made because of spiritual influences or the lack of spiritual influences. Thus I included in my question - is obesity a spiritual choice? or a choice because of a lack of spiritual influences?

I bring it up because it appears to me that some believe that there are stark differences between things that are physical and things that are spiritual. If you are one that believes in spiritual influences - do you believe that there is any relationship between listening to the spirit and making choices that result in the consequences of obesity?

I would also like to make a clear distinction between being obese and being overweight. By definition I would define obese as recommended by Wikipedia:

Obesity is a medical condition in which excess body fat has accumulated to the extent that it may have an adverse effect on health, leading to reduced life expectancy and/or increased health problems.[

I would also like to turn the discussion away from judgmental perceptions. The determination, for the most part need not be determined by observing others (with some obvious exceptions) but is the intelligent conclusion involving one's self and their health care professional (doctor) - realizing that it is possible for an individual to have mental problems causing them to think themself obese when in reality they are endangering their health in attempts to lose or control their weight.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

And I would like to know why so many people are concerned about the "health" of others - even total strangers - based solely on their personal perception of what is an aesthetically pleasing (to them) size. And what they are so sure is the cause of that size (gluttony).

Are they not also concerned about the health those who are underweight? What about concern for the health of someone such as myself? I have MS and cannot afford treatment. Do people in my situation rate concern for our health? Or is the lack of ability to afford healthcare somehow less offensive than a fat person? Is there concern for the health of a person such as a client we currently have....who gained excessive weight due to necessary treatment with steroids. She has a real and serious health issue. Many overweight people are actually healthy and fit...with the same numbers and abilities as their skinnier counterparts. Why the concern for the "health" of a person who may actually be healthy?

Health is a nebulous term and more so when the adjective good health is added. I do not think anyone would suggest that MS is a choice. I am exploring opinions to related to obesity - is obesity a choice? Would you like to offer an opinion?

The Traveler

[Guest]

I think it sometimes is, and sometimes isn't. Like I said in the last thread. And I think you can be overweight or even obese without it compromising your spiritual side. Like I said in the last thread.

[Vort]

Obesity is a result of choices you make. Compare obesity to depression. Many who are depressed feel that way due in large part to poor choices they have made. Did they choose to be depressed? Yes, perhaps, in the big picture. But few or none of them would say, "You know, I woke up one day and thought, Wouldn't it be great to be depressed? So I set out to accomplish that!"

I think the question is not well-formed or well-qualified enough to give a good answer. As others have noted, we have already had several thousand obesity-related threads, and the same information and viewpoints keep getting rehashed.

[Traveler]

Reason for my question:

Recently I was talking to a friend that has lost about 100 lbs or so in less than 6 months. The reason is that this individual was forced to change their eating habits and other health habits. There were several factors, one being a heart attack that nearly took their life depriving a family with several children of one of their parents. I do not think it is necessary to go into all the specifics but the goal of this individual was not their looks or weight but rather their health. BTW this person is in their 30’s

But according to them – they were in the beginning forced to make good health choices but the results of their “good” choices has been dramatic. They went from a 40 inch waist to a 30 inch waist. But diet has been only part of their new choices – They also decided to exercise regularly – making exercising for health a new priority.

What is interesting is what this individual tells me has changed in the treatment they receive from others. They indicated that they use to be made fun of for being “fat” and that such comments were always somewhat in just. But this is nothing to be compared to the manner in which they are now treated. The comments are no longer in just. They have been accused for being a “fanatic” and becoming “extreme” about health. They are no longer invited to lunch with co-workers because they are so extreme about what they eat. The exact terms I will not use on the forum. If they walk into an office while someone is eating that the person often becomes embarrassed and apologizes for what they are eating. I would note that my friend claims that they have never made any statement to anyone else about what they are eating and has only responded to questions about what they themselves are eating.

My friend tell me that even at church (LDS) there have been comments that they are being extreme in their health concerns and that they are too skinny and are acting too extreme.

I thought it interesting that my friend feels that there have been more derogatory comments about their healthy choices than when they were making unhealthy choices.

The Traveler

[Dravin]

That's not doctrine but rather sociology (or psychology).

Edited May 8, 2013 by Dravin

[Guest]

What does that have to do with spirituality?

I have been eating much healthier for almost a year and exercising strenuously for almost 6 months. I am physically healthier, though not at my ideal weight. I have noticed zero spiritual change. I still don't understand the correlation. If anything, I feel like you have a bias against fat people and it's raising some other questions for me. But perhaps I should start a thread about that.

[Smudge]

I am one of those obese people who every one judges - I started gaining weight in my teens as a result of being forced to stay indoors because of violent bullies, knee and back injuries and asthma meds. Despite this I walk the dog for miles every couple of days, I don't drive so walk everywhere, swim, have a spin bike in my home and do aquafit classes - yes people look down their noses at me especially if I am in stocking up on cake decorating or candy making supplies when they are on sale - for use at much and mingles (linger longer) and my friends schools fundraising events. Does my weight affectmy spirituality - no. Infact I feel closer to heavenly father than I did as a slim 14yr old. I love to take the dog out into the countryside and feel that when I do so I am connecting with heavenly father.

[applepansy]

In most cases arguably yes, but not all. Unless we're being extreme about it and telling those rare cases where it's a glandular disorder, other body malfunction, medication, or what have you where the choice is between being overweight or risking poorer health or death that they're choosing obesity over the alternative (poorer health or death). I suppose it'd be up to a physician to figure out if a healthier weight is achievable in those rare circumstance or simply difficult.

I do have to say though that there seems to be a certain focus with obesity, why isn't the question about maintaining the body in general? Perhaps because it's so visible? After all you can't see that Brother Smith, who looks healthy, actually has horrible cholesterol levels because of his diet.

Do you mean a choice with spiritual consequences? If not, can you please explain what you mean?

Those "glandular" issues aren't as rare as you would think.

[Dravin]

Those "glandular" issues aren't as rare as you would think.

I'm open to scientifically peer reviewed studies outlaying the commonality of glandular disorders that make obesity the choice versus degenerating health or death.

[Guest]

Those "glandular" issues aren't as rare as you would think.

I'm open to scientifically peer reviewed studies outlaying the commonality of glandular disorders that make obesity the choice versus degenerating health or death.

Those "glandular" issues are more likely caused by poor nutrition choices... the bane of a first-world economy.

[applepansy]

I'm open to scientifically peer reviewed studies outlaying the commonality of glandular disorders that make obesity the choice versus degenerating health or death.

The're are out there. All it takes is google search for adrenal gland dysfunction. I was looking for some chronic pain information the other day and was surprised to come across another one. I didn't bookmark it. Sorry.

Adrenal dysfunction is caused by stress and stress is a big issue in our society.

What I do have is too many online friends (for more than 10 years) who have been fighting chronic illnesses. Most of them report weight falling off in AFTER a new doctor decides to do adrenal gland function testing, finds the problem and fixes it. There have been too many in my small group of contacts for me to discount the studies I've seen over the years.

[applepansy]

Those "glandular" issues are more likely caused by poor nutrition choices... the bane of a first-world economy.

Not just poor nutrition choices. Stress and a UN-healthy diet can and does cause Adrenal problems.

Edited May 10, 2013 by applepansy

[Traveler]

Interesting responses. Being somewhat small in my youth - I doubt anyone was bullied (or beaten up) more than I was. When I went on my first date at age 16 with the car (and a girl about a foot taller) I went to get our theater tickets and was given change and one adult and one child ticket.

But my question is - is obesity a choice?

One reason I ask the question is because it often appears that there are some subjects that people find offensive? Especially if someone appears to have a different opinion. It appears this is defiantly one such subject.

Also many years ago I read a book (yes in my youth) that had a very lasting affect on me. The book was titled "Teaching Values". The book was about making choices based on one's values. Interestingly the book pointed out that although most think choices are made based on values that the reality is that many make choices that are in conflict with their own values.

I openly admit that I have what can be called prejudices. I believe people should make choices based on values they cherish and love. Things they are willing to stand up for. Things they are willing to say and openly admit are good principles. Good principles that are worthwhile not just for one individual with an opinion but something that they feel so good about that they want to share and encourage others to follow.

Am I evil or to be banned from the forum for believing in principles of good health? For encouraging others to make healthy choices? To live by values - to make choices based in values that I believe - and know to be good and true?

If someone is participating in a religion that they do not believe in or do not value or cherish - is it offensive to invite them to participate in a religion based on values that they can cherish? That they know are good and right principles?

Likewise, if you know something to be healthy and you cherish good health - are you offended if someone is willing to encourage you to make healthy choices rather that popular choices that are "temptations".

Is this not in essence the gospel of Christ? Not to live by appearances and what others accept or say is okay or make excuses for - but rather to live according to deep values inside one's very core principles that they know are good, right and true and of benefit?

I am not saying what people should eat - I have a grandson with server allergies that cannot eat many things that are healthy to me. He should eat and do things that are healthy for him.

But is not good health a microcosm of other things???? Can we learn spiritual things through physical principles?

If this turns out to be my final post - I hope the forum understands that I love and care for you all. So much that I will encourage you all to make good choices based in values you cherish and love and cheer for and not the choices you feel you must apologize and make excuses for.

The Traveler

[Guest]

Not just poor nutrition choices. Stress and a healthy diet can and does cause Adrenal problems.

Stress - another poor choice.

[Guest]

Interesting responses. Being somewhat small in my youth - I doubt anyone was bullied (or beaten up) more than I was. When I went on my first date at age 16 with the car (and a girl about a foot taller) I went to get our theater tickets and was given change and one adult and one child ticket.

But my question is - is obesity a choice?

One reason I ask the question is because it often appears that there are some subjects that people find offensive? Especially if someone appears to have a different opinion. It appears this is defiantly one such subject.

Also many years ago I read a book (yes in my youth) that had a very lasting affect on me. The book was titled "Teaching Values". The book was about making choices based on one's values. Interestingly the book pointed out that although most think choices are made based on values that the reality is that many make choices that are in conflict with their own values.

I openly admit that I have what can be called prejudices. I believe people should make choices based on values they cherish and love. Things they are willing to stand up for. Things they are willing to say and openly admit are good principles. Good principles that are worthwhile not just for one individual with an opinion but something that they feel so good about that they want to share and encourage others to follow.

Am I evil or to be banned from the forum for believing in principles of good health? For encouraging others to make healthy choices? To live by values - to make choices based in values that I believe - and know to be good and true?

If someone is participating in a religion that they do not believe in or do not value or cherish - is it offensive to invite them to participate in a religion based on values that they can cherish? That they know are good and right principles?

Likewise, if you know something to be healthy and you cherish good health - are you offended if someone is willing to encourage you to make healthy choices rather that popular choices that are "temptations".

Is this not in essence the gospel of Christ? Not to live by appearances and what others accept or say is okay or make excuses for - but rather to live according to deep values inside one's very core principles that they know are good, right and true and of benefit?

I am not saying what people should eat - I have a grandson with server allergies that cannot eat many things that are healthy to me. He should eat and do things that are healthy for him.

But is not good health a microcosm of other things???? Can we learn spiritual things through physical principles?

If this turns out to be my final post - I hope the forum understands that I love and care for you all. So much that I will encourage you all to make good choices based in values you cherish and love and cheer for and not the choices you feel you must apologize and make excuses for.

The Traveler

I have no idea how you go from is Obesity a choice? To being banned. I frankly have no idea what's going on in this thread.

Plain fact answer: Obesity can't be a choice because it is merely an adjective, not an action! Just like pretty can't be a choice. It's an adjective.

But Obesity MAY or MAY NOT be a PRODUCT of choice. Really. It's as simple as that.