Sum of Good Choices

[Finrock]

What do you believe this statement means?

"At the end of our life we will become the sum of all the good choices we have made."

Second, do you believe this is a true principle? Why or why not?

Regards,

Finrock

[Guest]

I think it's true as I understand it. The more good choices we make, the closer we will become to who we are meant to be.

[Dravin]

What do you believe this statement means?

"At the end of our life we will become the sum of all the good choices we have made."

Second, do you believe this is a true principle? Why or why not?

Regards,

Finrock

Depends how much you want to break it down. The statement apparently doesn't make allowances for choices after this life, for example conversion and acceptance of ordinances in the spirit world. I suppose one could quibble over what is meant by "our life" though. Secondly another possible point of contention is grace in general and the atonement specifically, we are dependent on the choices of others to become what we will in the next life. Or choices in isolation don't really get us anywhere. Is the atonement a good choice we have made? We may choose to utilize it but our choices did not create it. Without the atonement what we become is much different and while we can choose to utilize the atonement offered through Christ it was not our choices but Christ's (and the Father's) that brought the atonement to pass. Lastly, do our poor choices not also affect what we will become in the next life? To solve that I'd say one would need to remove "good" and just make it the sum of all the choices we made in life, though that only addresses this last quibble it doesn't address the previous two.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Dravin

[skippy740]

One aspect of the quote "end of this life" makes me think of the Judgment.

There are some that think that if the good outweighs the bad... then I'll be okay.

Yet it is repeated many times in the scriptures that God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.

It's not about weighing out your worthiness... but in how often one repents, as Dravin was saying.

I wanted to clarify because who we become is the sum of our choices, but our Judgment is the sum of our repentance... if that makes sense.

[Windseeker]

I think the statement ignores how one may make the best or even make good out of some of the bad choices they make in their life.

If we are the sum of our good choices then we are also a sum of our mistakes and I don't think that allows much room for the Atonement.

[Finrock]

Good Morning Windseeker. I hope you are doing well today! :)

If we are the sum of our good choices then we are also a sum of our mistakes and I don't think that allows much room for the Atonement.

Well, see, that is exactly why I think this statement is interesting because it excludes mentioning our mistakes or sins. In other words, I believe the statement is saying that we will become the sum of the good choices we have made, rather than the sum of the mistakes/sins we have made.

In other words, I don't believe that if we are the sum of our good choices then we are also the sum of our mistakes.

So, do you think that if we are the sum of our good choices then it must also absolutely be true that we are the sum of our mistakes?

Regards,

Finrock

[Anddenex]

Second, do you believe this is a true principle? Why or why not?

I would like to answer the "Second" question first. Yes. I believe this to be a true principle. I believe this principle also incorporates the knowledge a person is given in this life according to what is good and what is evil. Why, is answered below.

"At the end of our life we will become the sum of all the good choices we have made."

I believe the meaning of this principle is discovered when reading Alma 41: 3 & 5

Alma expresses to his son, that if our works and the desires of our hearts are good, then we will be restored unto that which is good.

If the sum total of our choices are good, in connection with our knowledge of what is good and what is evil, then these good choices and desires will raise us or restore us unto that which is good -- happiness.

However, all the more important, is that the sum of our good choices actually change our nature such that we "become" good, not necessarily just make good choices. Some of us make good choices without "becoming" good.

[Finrock]

Good Morning Dravin! I hope you are have a good day. :)

Lastly, do our poor choices not also affect what we will become in the next life? To solve that I'd say one would need to remove "good" and just make it the sum of all the choices we made in life, though that only addresses this last quibble it doesn't address the previous two.

That is the question. At the end of our life will we end up being the sum of our good choices only?

I don't think you can escape the fact that ultimately all people must choose to accept the atonement. When we left our first estate, we chose to accept the atonement (by accepting Heavenly Father's plan) over anything else. That choice has been made. In this life, we must continue to accept and apply the atonement through-out our life. Otherwise, if we don't choose to accept the atonement at all and completely reject it, then other than being resurrected, it will be as if the atonement didn't exist for us.

We progress and become more when we choose good. We digress and become less when we commit sin.

Regards,

Finrock

[MrShorty]

I think that, because of Christ's atonement, we become greater than the sum of our good choices.

There are a couple of verses in Ezekiel 18.

paraphrasing vs. 24: "when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned...in his sins he shall die."

paraphrasing vs. 27: "when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness and doith that which is lawful, he shall save his soul alive."

So, in many ways, I think God is more concerned with the direction we are headed at the end of our life, rather than a sum total of good (or good minus bad) choices.

[Traveler]

Good Morning Dravin! I hope you are have a good day. :)

That is the question. At the end of our life will we end up being the sum of our good choices only?

I don't think you can escape the fact that ultimately all people must choose to accept the atonement. When we left our first estate, we chose to accept the atonement (by accepting Heavenly Father's plan) over anything else. That choice has been made. In this life, we must continue to accept and apply the atonement through-out our life. Otherwise, if we don't choose to accept the atonement at all and completely reject it, then other than being resurrected, it will be as if the atonement didn't exist for us.

We progress and become more when we choose good. We digress and become less when we commit sin.

Regards,

Finrock

I would modify the thought to - we will become the sum of what we have become (learned by experience) to love, cherish, enjoy and desire. But even then I am not sure that the thought is complete because it would seem that what we have become (learned by experience) to hate, loath, despise and dislike - would also appear to have a similar impact.

It would seem that many would enjoy some sin rather than be a "goodie two shoes". The statement that no one is perfect could also be understood to mean that from such a standpoint - it is believe that no one really wants to be perfect. Or as CS Lewis would say - it seems that we all have some little sin that we love and do not want to give up, even in eternity.

The Traveler

[Dravin]

I don't think you can escape the fact that ultimately all people must choose to accept the atonement. When we left our first estate, we chose to accept the atonement (by accepting Heavenly Father's plan) over anything else. That choice has been made. In this life, we must continue to accept and apply the atonement through-out our life. Otherwise, if we don't choose to accept the atonement at all and completely reject it, then other than being resurrected, it will be as if the atonement didn't exist for us.

I think you misunderstand. If we are the sum of our good choices then anything that is not "a good choice we made", such as the availability of the atonement, cannot play a role in what we will become. Here, we'll step away from the atonement and use another example. My gender will have an impact on what I will become (if nothing else King/Father/Husband versus Queen/Mother/Wife and so on). If we say yes to the premise that we will be the sum of our good choices then either it's wrong to think that gender will have an impact on what we will become or gender is a good choice that we make.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Dravin

[ElectofGod]

I really like this thread. Interesting things to ponder. I will add to whats been said.

The scriptures state the purpose of life is to "improve upon our estate" nothing else (be proved in all things also but only so we can improve upon it and know where we are at for ourselves on that path). If we improved we will succeed if we don't "how awful will be our state"... What if we don't improve? What if we were more evil than our life before? What if that "sum" of us causes us to become worse off than we were? I won't answer it only pose the question.

Thats part of the test of life though, to improve. "more knowledge we gain through our obedience we will have the greater advantage in the world to come" (D&C 130/131?,paraphrase). Other-wards, the more we improve, the greater the sum, the better off we will be. Why? Again only pose the question for now.

Last comment for now. End of this life. I call this life "eternity", Eternal life. We are in it now. "eternal life is to know the only true and living god". Why are we here? To know God. Thus the end of this life is this eternity. The end of our last life was when we came to this eternity (mortality-earth). Our sum of that life has caused the deviation of this life amongst all the people. Explains why some are more "righteous" than others. We increased in dominion and gain greater gifts in this life to improve upon.

This is why we don't judge others. They are here to improve. We don't know who they were or what their potential is. If they reach it they pass the test of mortality. We must help them accept the atonement.

Edited May 15, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Finrock]

I think you misunderstand. If we are the sum of our good choices then anything that is not "a good choice we made", such as the availability of the atonement, cannot play a role in what we will become. Here, we'll step away from the atonement and use another example. My gender will have an impact on what I will become (if nothing else King/Father/Husband versus Queen/Mother/Wife and so on). If we say yes to the premise that we will be the sum of our good choices then either it's wrong to think that gender will have an impact on what we will become or gender is a good choice that we make.

I misunderstood your point at first. Thank you for clarifying. I think I understand it* now and I don't think it is actually relevant. Here is why. I suppose I should have clarified that we will become the sum of the choices we have made within the sphere and/or condition that God has placed us.

Whether I chose my gender or not in the pre-existence, I don't know. However, regardless of that, if I am male, that is what I am. This will obviously "play a role" in what I become, but my potential is absolute, so the real question has to do with choices that I can make given the circumstances or conditions I am in. They will either be good or bad choices. The choices I make will either advance me towards my potential or away from it.

Regards,

Finrock

*If I've still misunderstood you, then please let me know. I do not want to misunderstand you and I would rather know exactly what you mean.

[Dravin]

I think I understand it* now and I don't think it is actually relevant.

I think it is because it divorces the statement in question from reality. It's great at the bumper sticker level but trying to chalk up the totality of what we may become as a sum of our good choices as a serious endeavor is lacking.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Dravin

[applepansy]

Where does Grace fall into this?

How can we possible be the sum of our good choices or our bad choices IF when we have faith in Christ it will be through and only through His Grace that we will be saved?

I think we'll become more than the sum of our good choices.

References:

Helaman 14:13

Book of Mormon

And if ye believe on his name ye will repent of all your sins, that thereby ye may have a remission of them through his merits.

Alma 24:10

Book of Mormon

...my God, yea, my great God, that he hath granted unto us that we might repent of these things, and also that he hath forgiven us of those our many sins and murders which we have committed, and taken away the guilt from our hearts, through the merits of his Son.

Moroni 6:4

Book of Mormon

...among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the...

2 Nephi 31:19

Book of Mormon

...after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

2 Nephi 2:8

Book of Mormon

...of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring...

[ElectofGod]

Where does Grace fall into this?

How can we possible be the sum of our good choices or our bad choices IF when we have faith in Christ it will be through and only through His Grace that we will be saved?

I think we'll become more than the sum of our good choices.

References:

How does grace work? This is an area I lack knowledge in.

I would think that this is talking about our giving us salvation through his grace. It covers our bad choices thus allowing us to enter into heaven. It does not however change us. I think the quote is referring to what we BECAME, versus grace is what We BECOME with the atonement applied. They are two concepts.

If we don't BECOME ourselves anything it will do us no good even with his grace. If we improve ourselves than the grace will allow us to be in heaven even not being perfect. Still there will be this connection between what we ARE and anything else we are not yet will be covered by the atonement. Else we could not live in heaven being unclean.

We will than work out our salvation "with fear and trembling beyond the veil" as Joseph Smith stated...

I hope this make sense... Its probably not a traditional view in gospel principles.

[Finrock]

Good evening Dravin. I hope you are well. :)

I think it is because it divorces the statement in question from reality. It's great at the bumper sticker level but trying to chalk up the totality of what we may become as a sum of our good choices as a serious endeavor is lacking.

So, you think your point is relevant because you believe your point shows that what I am saying is ridiculous?

Regards,

Finrock

[Finrock]

Here is the idea phrased differently:

"And when we reach the end of our physical existence on this earth we may well have become the result of the sum of our decisions that we have chosen good, and we can say, 'I have done, Lord, the best that I could do with my life. I am happy to present myself'".

Regards,

Finrock

[ElectofGod]

Here is the idea phrased differently:

"And when we reach the end of our physical existence on this earth we may well have become the result of the sum of our decisions that we have chosen good, and we can say, 'I have done, Lord, the best that I could do with my life. I am happy to present myself'".

Regards,

Finrock

I was reading Act in Doctrine by Bednar last night. He has a chapter about Character. The definition stood out to me...

1) qualities of honesty, courage, or the like; integrity:

2)1. Character, individuality, personality refer to the sum of the characteristics possessed by a person. Character refers especially to moral qualities, ethical standards, principles, and the like: a man of sterling character...

Here are some famous quotes about character

“Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.” -Lincoln

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” -Einstein

“Character isn't inherited. One builds it daily by the way one thinks and acts, thought by thought, action by action. If one lets fear or hate or anger take possession of the mind, they become self-forged chains.” -Unknown

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon Anddenex. I hope you are having a good day! :)

I believe the meaning of this principle is discovered when reading Alma 41: 3 & 5

Alma expresses to his son, that if our works and the desires of our hearts are good, then we will be restored unto that which is good.

If the sum total of our choices are good, in connection with our knowledge of what is good and what is evil, then these good choices and desires will raise us or restore us unto that which is good -- happiness.

However, all the more important, is that the sum of our good choices actually change our nature such that we "become" good, not necessarily just make good choices. Some of us make good choices without "becoming" good.

I had not thought to read this particular scripture. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I agree with you that Alma 41 helps in understanding what the phrase might mean.

This is how I see it. Our works, our choices, whether good or evil, determines our character, or who we really are.

Moroni 7

"5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also."

However, we can't pretend to do good works.

Moroni 7

"6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God."

So, what choices or works profit us? It is only our good choices. Our wickedness does nothing for us. And notice that simply doing what would be considered good things doesn't profit you anything if it isn't done with real intent.

I think it is interesting that these scriptures essentially say that in order for our good choices to profit us, they must be done with real intent. What do you think it means in this case when it says "real intent"?

I'm still formulating my thoughts here, so bear with me...

Regards,

Finrock

[ElectofGod]

Here are a few more thoughts I came across.

His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires (2 Peter 1:3-4).

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." (A Return to Love: Reflections on the Principles of "A Course in Miracles", Harper Collins, 1992. From Chapter 7, Section 3)

Ok now some quotes on the OP...

Oaks states this exact question in his talk, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2000/10/the-challenge-to-become?lang=eng. He explains more than I just quoted below.

The prophet Nephi describes the Final Judgment in terms of what we have become: “And if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God” (1 Ne. 15:33; emphasis added). Moroni declares, “He that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still” (Morm. 9:14; emphasis added; see also Rev. 22:11–12; 2 Ne. 9:16; D&C 88:35). The same would be true of “selfish” or “disobedient” or any other personal attribute inconsistent with the requirements of God. Referring to the “state” of the wicked in the Final Judgment, Alma explains that if we are condemned by our words, our works, and our thoughts, “we shall not be found spotless; … and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God” (Alma 12:14).

From such teachings we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.

Years ago, President Hinckley counseled: “It is not so much the major events as the small day-to-day decisions that map the course of our living. … Our lives are, in reality, the sum total of our seemingly unimportant decisions and of our capacity to live by those decisions” (Caesar, Circus, or Christ? Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year [26 Oct. 1965], 3).

...The validation of our worth really comes from knowing who we are, not solely from what we do. Jesus’ searching words remain: “What manner of men [and women] ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am” (3 Ne. 27:27; see also Matt. 5:48; 3 Ne. 12:48).

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2000/10/the-tugs-and-pulls-of-the-world?lang=eng

The sum of our decisions …

“The Spoken Word” from Temple Square, presented over KSL and the Columbia Broadcasting System October 18, 1970 © 1970.

“No one can ask honestly or hope fully to be delivered from temptation,” said John Ruskin, “unless he has himself honestly and firmly determined to do the best he can to keep out of it.” 1 Many who find themselves in trouble and regret say that it was circumstances, or the influence of someone else, or that the blame lies largely outside themselves, which may be true—or partly so. It is true that there are always circumstances and influences outside ourselves. No one lives in a vacuum. We are all played upon by other people. We are influenced by the moral and physical atmosphere in which we live our lives. But there is something else that is also true—that we, ourselves, must make our choices; that we must decide, and take our share of responsibilities for our decisions—for added to all the outside influences are the inner influences—the personal standards, the personal commitment; the determination to do what we shouldn’t do. Ultimately we become the sum of our decisions—the sum of what we decide. And one thing that is quite unsafe is to leave the door open for anything to enter—to leave the wrong options open. It takes character to turn away from temptation. It takes character to turn away from an enticing evil. But when a person decides to go half way or just a little the wrong way, he may find that he can’t stop where he thought he could. It comes down pretty much to deciding what we will or won’t do—and then staying with our standards. It sounds oversimplified, and it is; but too often those who get into trouble do so with some degree of consent. They entertain the idea; they leave the wrong options open. “No one can ask honestly or hope fully to be delivered from temptation unless he has himself honestly and firmly determined to do the best he can to keep out of it.” It is as John Oxenham said it:

“To every man there openeth …

A High Way and a Low.

And every man decideth

The way his soul shall go.” 2

1. John Ruskin, NDT 665.

2. John Oxenham, “The Ways.”

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/01/the-spoken-word?lang=eng

[applepansy]

How does grace work? This is an area I lack knowledge in.

I would think that this is talking about our giving us salvation through his grace. It covers our bad choices thus allowing us to enter into heaven. It does not however change us. I think the quote is referring to what we BECAME, versus grace is what We BECOME with the atonement applied. They are two concepts.

If we don't BECOME ourselves anything it will do us no good even with his grace. If we improve ourselves than the grace will allow us to be in heaven even not being perfect. Still there will be this connection between what we ARE and anything else we are not yet will be covered by the atonement. Else we could not live in heaven being unclean.

We will than work out our salvation "with fear and trembling beyond the veil" as Joseph Smith stated...

I hope this make sense... Its probably not a traditional view in gospel principles.

I linked to this exercise in another thread. I will do so again

Plan of Salvation

Read what Justice wrote. Then read Alma 12 and follow the directions given by Justice. Do it a couple of times. Do it in a couple of different groups of people. Your questions will be answered.

[Finrock]

Good Morning ElectofGod. I hope you are well today! :)

Thank you for providing those quotes. They have been helpful to me. I think they confirm that the idea I expressed is a true principle. I'm glad because the quote is a part of my patriarchal blessing and I don't have the luxury of simply dismissing it.

I like this quote that you provided by Hinckley:

"It is not so much the major events as the small day-to-day decisions that map the course of our living. … Our lives are, in reality, the sum total of our seemingly unimportant decisions and of our capacity to live by those decisions"

Every day we are faced with the problem of decision and we must come to recognize how important each choice we make is, because in making the choices we make, we are putting ourselves in a position where we can choose what we want to be in this life and in the next life.

Once we recognize how useless and meaningless sin is, and that it profits us nothing, that is when I believe we will begin to thirst and to hunger after righteousness because it is only our good choices that actually benefit us and build us up to our potential. Our potential is that we are gods and the power of godliness within us is manifested by us living the laws and ordinances of the gospel (choosing good and doing good). It is the good choices that builds up, while doing wickedly keeps us stunted and does nothing for us.

Regards,

Finrock

[Anddenex]

So, what choices or works profit us? It is only our good choices. Our wickedness does nothing for us. And notice that simply doing what would be considered good things doesn't profit you anything if it isn't done with real intent.

I agree.

I think it is interesting that these scriptures essentially say that in order for our good choices to profit us, they must be done with real intent. What do you think it means in this case when it says "real intent"?

Great question. My initial thoughts bring me to two conclusions. The first, real intent is a sincere choice for good. These sincere choices glorify God, and bring about a change within the individual.

The second thought stems from Elder Bednar, that we were created with the ability "to act" or to be "acted upon."

When a person acts with real intent they are not being acted upon -- they act. For example, I once read a story in the Ensign of a brother who recognized his racism toward African Americans. He knew the gospel and the gospel teachings. He decided to act, with real intent, to overcome his weakness by making bread once a week for this family. He eventually began to overcome his weakness and began to love this family and all others. His actions were with real intent, with sincerity.

In contrast, someone who is "acted upon" will only do good things for his neighbor because God "said so." There is no change within the heart of the individual. He/she still doesn't like them, but I will do good because God commands it -- although I hate it.

Much like the child who only apologizes because Mom and Dad "said so" and fears their wrath more than they love my brother/sister.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Anddenex

[Finrock]

Good Morning changed. I hope you are having a wonderful day! :)

I think it means the atonement washes away all the bad, and what is left, is everything that is good.

Thank you for this comment, changed. I too was also thinking along these lines. I believe that the atonement is what allows our good choices to be profitable. If we exercise faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ then our weaknesses and our sins will be washed away and we will be left with only the sum of the good choices that we have made.

Regards,

Finrock