Christians: tip 20%

[mnn727]

).

I still don't agree with the entire concept of tipping. It'd be better if tipping was based solely on level of service, but a pretty 21 year old girl, is far more likely to get higher tips than a balding overweight 50 year old male, even with the same level of service. That's unfair.

Actually, having owned and managed restaurants for 25+ years that is a false assumption.

Male servers in general make more than women.

Pretty women made no more than average women, comparing tips it was always their service ability that made the difference week to week.

[Mahone]

And if I don't go back to a restaurant because the service is crappy then I'm judging the level of the service of the servers. Or if I complain to management about the service I've received from a server. One can disagree that it's the customer's job to determine how much the server gets paid, but it is certainly my place to judge the service I receive. The service of a server at a restaurant, at a sit down restaurant, is a significant portion of what I'm paying for (and I'm not talking about tipping here).

You're entirely missing the point I'm trying to make. Perhaps I should have appended my statement with "per se". If you'd read further down, you'd see that I then said this:

Customers should judge the restaurant in general

The word general means overall, and this also includes the level of service the waiters or waitresses give.

The point I was trying to make is that I don't believe the customers opinion of the level of service of the waiter should be independent to that of the restaurant overall, and therefore I don't believe that customer should then have the ability to affect that single employees income as a result of their opinion of the service given. There are an entire multitude of reasons as to why bad service is being given by a waiter, and not all of them are the waiters fault. Many of them could be simply down to bad management. A basic example is that a specific waiter is being worked harder and is being requested by management to serve 50% of the tables, but the other 2 employees only have to serve 25% each. That one employee won't be able to spend as much time at each table as the other two. This will affect the level of service he is able to give - but the customers don't know that.

My view of this is that the customer should judge the overall service given by the restaurant as a whole, and the managers job is to narrow down specific issues and resolve them, either by improving processes, training staff or firing people.

In my line of work, I regularly receive complaints about my staff. Many times, I know these complaints are either unfounded, or there is a good reason behind the scenes as to why that occurred, and it wasn't down to that specific employee. I'd be annoyed if the people that made these complaints were able to affect the wages of my staff, for this very reason.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Mahone

[Mahone]

Male servers in general make more than women.

In your experience, why do you think this is?

[Dravin]

The word general means overall, and this also includes the level of service the waiters or waitresses give.

Except as per what you said we shouldn't be judging that. I daresay you royally borked your communication. It's akin to stating we shouldn't judge if the shows on NBC are good, but we should judge if the shows on TV are good.

The point I was trying to make is that I don't believe the customers opinion of the level of service of the waiter should be independent to that of the restaurant overall

That's just silly. I go to a restaurant for years and love it but they hire a new server and that new server cops attitude at me and I can't independently think that server sucks? I have to shift my opinion of the entire restaurant (which might happen if that server doesn't get fired or retrained and I have to put up with them too many times)? And of course judgement works both ways, if my server is amazing I can't think that they gave amazing service unless I'm somehow plugging it into a general idea of the restaurant overall? Because I've received amazing service from servers in crappy restaurants.

and therefore I don't believe that customer should then have the ability to affect that single employees income as a result of their opinion of the service given.

Yep, thus why I said:

One can disagree that it's the customer's job to determine how much the server gets paid, but it is certainly my place to judge the service I receive

. Edited July 8, 2013 by Dravin

[Mahone]

Except as per what you said we shouldn't be judging that. I daresay you royally borked your communication.

Maybe. My point still stands.

That's just silly. I go to a restaurant for years and love it but they hire a new server and that new server cops attitude at me and I can't independently think that server sucks?

You can independently think what you like about the server, it doesn't make it true. The level of service given by the server can easily tie into the way management run things in so many ways.

I gave an example of this above. Please explain why you think this example is silly.

I have to shift my opinion of the entire restaurant (which might happen if that server doesn't get fired or retrained and I have to put up with them too many times)? And of course judgement works both ways, if my server is amazing I can't think that they gave amazing service unless I'm somehow plugging it into a general idea of the restaurant overall? Because I've received amazing service from servers in crappy restaurants.

Your point holds as long as your initial assumption, that the waiters bad service is entirely their own fault, is true. Otherwise, it falls over. And when your initial assumption isn't true, my point doesn't seem so "silly".

Customers are entitled to their own opinions. But these opinions shouldn't affect staff wage levels unless proven. And unfortunately bad service in and of itself doesn't prove fault of the waiter. That's for management to decide when they have looked at all of the facts (not possible for the customer to do in most cases).

[Guest]

Something I've told my MIL, who I refuse to dine with because of how she treats waiters and holds their tips hostage based on her ridiculous expectations (like the restaurant having yellow lemonade, not pink):

Part of being nice to the waiter is rewarding them with a tip for serving you, the tip depending on how good the service is.

[Dravin]

I gave an example of this above. Please explain why you think this example is silly.

I think it is irrelevant. I don't see anything there that somehow leads to why I can't judge if the service I received from my waiter was good or not. It's akin to giving some hypothetical about an overworked baker and insisting how it isn't my place to judge if the cake he made is good or not.

Your point holds as long as your initial assumption, that the waiters bad service is entirely their own fault, is true. Otherwise, it falls over. And when your initial assumption isn't true, my point doesn't seem so "silly".

I never predicated my position upon that premise, which would make this a straw-man. So yes, silly.

But these opinions shouldn't affect staff wage levels unless proven. And unfortunately bad service in and of itself doesn't prove fault of the waiter. That's for management to decide when they have looked at all of the facts (not possible for the customer to do in most cases).

You do realize I've not made a single argument that my judgement of the service I receive from the server should impact their wages?

Edited July 8, 2013 by Dravin

[Mahone]

I received bad service from the server. It doesn't mean they are some sort of horrible person, or even that it is their fault, but saying it isn't my place to judge if I received good service from the server is silly.

I didn't say it wasn't your place to judge. That would be silly.

What I did say is that customers shouldn't judge the service of the waiter independently to that of the restaurant. In other words, the waiter and the restaurant are linked. To what degree is a variable, and will be different depending on the circumstances.

For starters, we know the restaurant employed the waiter, chosen specifically after going through CVs and interview processes. We know they should be monitoring his performance regularly, probably with a manager spot checking with customers. If a bad service is largely down to waiter failings, the restaurant also failed in at least both of these procedures, to whatever degree.

The only person that can truly establish where the failings of the restaurant in general end and the waiter begins is the manager. Customers should bear this in mind when forming their own opinions of the service.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Mahone

[Backroads]

Mahone's arguments make a lot of sense and I can imagine a waiter having a bad day due to the restaurant having a bad day (is that a fair recount?) but I still don't think I'd bother to tip the waiter a little extra on the assumption it's an off time. I still think there's reasonable room for independence in the waiter's performance.

And I'm usually sympathetic when the waiter isn't stellar when the restaurant is super busy.

[Churchmouse]

I don't know of any servers who have to work EVERY evening/weekend/holiday/special occasion. Servers work according to their schedules and more often than not have input on their schedules. I don't feel sorry for them.

That's why they would rather serve me than you.

[Lakumi]

its the muppets in the kitchen that deserve the scorn, they sent out the raw dish

[Backroads]

That's why they would rather serve me than you.

Why? Because I treat them with respect and kindness? I just don't think I have to start pitying those waiters for no real reason.

[Churchmouse]

I do pity people who work these jobs. In twenty seven years in the classroom I never heard a little girl say "When I grow up I want to be a waitress".

[mnn727]

In your experience, why do you think this is?

I think in many cases its sexist in nature: that many customers (unconscious probably) believe a male has more financial responsibilities thus should make more.

[Backroads]

I do pity people who work these jobs. In twenty seven years in the classroom I never heard a little girl say "When I grow up I want to be a waitress".

Lots of people find themselves in jobs less stellar than what they dreamed of. Does that mean we pity everyone? Waiters and waitresses, for the most part, are often quite satisfied in their jobs--and I have many friends, family, and acquaintences who do this job. I have not heard them complain about it more than anyone else complains about their job. So you are welcome to sit there and cry over these people who purposely chose to be a waiter, and I will continue to give them what I consider to be a fair tip.

[Dravin]

For the record tipping is not a research black hole. They've done, and do, studies on what impacts tips. I found one study that discusses several predictors of average tip earnings which seems up the ally of your discussion mnn727 and Mahone:

LYNN, M. and SIMONS, T. (2000), Predictors of Male and Female Servers' Average Tip Earnings. Journal of Applied Social Psychology, 30: 241–252. doi: 10.1111/j.1559-1816.2000.tb02314.x

[prisonchaplain]

As a rule of thumb: Those who demand the most give the least.

Now, was I talking about restaurants or churches?

[Churchmouse]

Lots of people find themselves in jobs less stellar than what they dreamed of. Does that mean we pity everyone? Waiters and waitresses, for the most part, are often quite satisfied in their jobs--and I have many friends, family, and acquaintences who do this job. I have not heard them complain about it more than anyone else complains about their job. So you are welcome to sit there and cry over these people who purposely chose to be a waiter, and I will continue to give them what I consider to be a fair tip.

Well, Backroads, I guess we just have to agree to disagree:)

[Guest]

Disagree. I tip the customary 15%. I'm not going to tip extra just because I'm Christian. That's silly. I am going to tip extra because the waiter was extraordinary. If the waiter was horrible, I tip the 15% and file a complaint with the manager.

No, I won't tip extra just because waiters have kids to feed and any of those heartbreaker reasons. There are a jillion other jobsters who have a jillion heartbreaker reasons. Waiters are nothing special in that category.

[prisonchaplain]

At higher end restaurants 20% is the new normal. At the kind of restaurants I frequent 15% is still good. I'm encouraging 20% because Christians have gotten a bad rap amongst wait staff. We're known for being demanding and cheap. I'm trying to counter that. We need not be door mats, but IMHO Jesus would err on the side of generosity.

[StMonica]

Do the 20% before tax.

[Irishcolleen]

Servers work on their feet for an entire shift, usually work hours most of us wouldn't want to work, get yelled at by customers for anything that goes wrong- even if it isn't their fault, have to put up with crabby people, put up with being hit-on, etc... You could not pay me enough to wait tables. Unless they are rude 20% is considered proper.

[Backroads]

Well, Backroads, I guess we just have to agree to disagree:)

Indeed. I guess I've seen plenty of other "terrible" jobs and don't understand why only waiters get the pity.

[prisonchaplain]

Indeed. I guess I've seen plenty of other "terrible" jobs and don't understand why only waiters get the pity.

Oh, I think others get some sympathy too. However, we can impact the take home pay of wait staff, so it's a conversation worth having.

[pam]

I do pity people who work these jobs. In twenty seven years in the classroom I never heard a little girl say "When I grow up I want to be a waitress".

My daughter did when she was little. :)