Women in combat

[Bini]

Saw an ever so brief segment on the news about the US Military taking steps to integrate women into combat roles, such as rangers and seals. (I hadn't realised that women didn't participate in said jobs.) Anyway, the program/training that's in affect to prepare women for combat will require that they physically and mentally perform to the same level as men.

I honestly have no beef with women volunteering to serve their country, with the same rights and demands as men but I'm wondering how women are expected to physically compete with men -- at the same level? I would think that while psychologically males and females are wired differently, given training, either gender can be relied on to make important judgement calls but for a man and woman (generally speaking) to go toe-to-toe in combat, I see a physical advantage on one side.

Anyway, what do y'all think about women fighting along side men? I thought they already were but I guess not..

[Just_A_Guy]

As long as they don't expect special treatment, and as long as they aren't such inferior soldiers so as to put their male colleagues in a dangerous position, I have a hard time getting worked up about the issue.

My main concern is more that male soldiers won't be able to completely suppress their chivalrous (or baser) urges towards their female colleagues, leading into some sticky strategic situations both on and off the battlefield.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[pam]

Ditto to what JAG said exactly.

[classylady]

Agree with what's been said so far.

BTW, I have seen some very masculine looking women, who probably could go toe-to-toe with men. lol

[annewandering]

Can men control their baser or chivalrous leaning in business? In any workplace? Is it up to women to help them out? It was always my understanding, and remember I have five brothers, that they are perfectly capable of acting like adults same as women can. How about if we dont give them an automatic excuse to misbehave? How about if we expect them to act like adult human beings?

I have a daughter who was not allowed to be in a position she was good at because she was a gasp woman. Oh and gasp despite being in a 'protected' job she was sexually harassed then held back from advancement for reporting it.

The thing here is that we need to attack the problem not deny women positions that they want and can do. We need to expect proper behavior from all military personnel. We need to appropriately punish those who do not comply. I have no doubt that there would not be a problem if those were done.

THEN we might consider the farfetched idea that war is not a good place for anyone, male and female. If there is no war then there is no need to worry about either sex in combat.

[Wingnut]

Until the recent announcement earlier this year, I also hadn't realized that women still were not allowed in combat, at least not fully. It was confusing to me, seeing as how I have a female cousin who has both a purple heart and a bronze star.

[Guest]

My main concern is more that male soldiers won't be able to completely suppress their chivalrous (or baser) urges towards their female colleagues, leading into some sticky strategic situations both on and off the battlefield.

My main issue is that we'd want them to...

[bytor2112]

Saw an ever so brief segment on the news about the US Military taking steps to integrate women into combat roles, such as rangers and seals. (I hadn't realised that women didn't participate in said jobs.) Anyway, the program/training that's in affect to prepare women for combat will require that they physically and mentally perform to the same level as men.

I honestly have no beef with women volunteering to serve their country, with the same rights and demands as men but I'm wondering how women are expected to physically compete with men -- at the same level? I would think that while psychologically males and females are wired differently, given training, either gender can be relied on to make important judgement calls but for a man and woman (generally speaking) to go toe-to-toe in combat, I see a physical advantage on one side.

Anyway, what do y'all think about women fighting along side men? I thought they already were but I guess not..

I would think that Special Forces like Rangers or Seals or Force recon would require the type of physical ability that few men have and that would necessitate women being able to perform at the same level as their counterparts or they would endanger the unit and the mission.

[annewandering]

I would think that Special Forces like Rangers or Seals or Force recon would require the type of physical ability that few men have and that would necessitate women being able to perform at the same level as their counterparts or they would endanger the unit and the mission.

I would agree and there is no reason to not let women prove themselves capable.

[bytor2112]

I would agree and there is no reason to not let women prove themselves capable.

Indeed. If they can try out to be a kicker in the NFL and succe....(j/k) Women prove themselves capable every day..........

[Just_A_Guy]

Can men control their baser or chivalrous leaning in business? In any workplace? Is it up to women to help them out?

There are two facets to what I said.

First, there's the idea of controlling chivalrous behavior. Contra Anatess, I think chivalry is entirely undesirable in war--at least, when directed towards fellow soldiers. If I hold a critical spotting or sniping position, and I see one of my female comrades get captured and raped on the spot: Do I let my chivalry take over, and stop that assault--thereby abandoning or betraying my position and endangering the mission?

Second, there's the idea of controlling baser behavior--sexual harassment, or whatever. Do I agree with you that it's unacceptable? Yep. But do I have any illusions that it's going to stop? Unfortunately, no; and the reason goes back to what an army inherently is.

The purpose of war is to kill people, break things, and make the enemy suffer in new and exquisite ways. The mission of soldiers, is to accomplish the above-stated purpose. So at some level, you've got to choose between having an effective fighting force, or a politically correct one.

THEN we might consider the farfetched idea that war is not a good place for anyone, male and female. If there is no war then there is no need to worry about either sex in combat.

I whole-heartedly agree.

[bytor2112]

THEN we might consider the farfetched idea that war is not a good place for anyone, male and female. If there is no war then there is no need to worry about either sex in combat.

"It is well that war is so terrible, else men would grow to fond of it." - Robert E. Lee

"It is painful enough to discover with what unconcern they speak of war and threaten it. I have seen enough of it to make me look upon it as the sum of all evils."- Thomas J "Stonewall" Jackson

"I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell." - William T Sherman

Edited June 19, 2013 by bytor2112

[pam]

My main issue is that we'd want them to...

Absolutely we would want them too. You have to trust all of your fellow soldiers to watch your back while in battle. You don't want a soldier endangering the lives of all of the soldiers (men) because they were more protective of a female soldier. It's equal partnership out there.

I wasn't sure which direction you were going with on your comment. I could take it both ways.

[Bini]

JAG, good points.

I agree that chivalry could very well screw an operation. I couldn't imagine standing there, or hiding out, and watching a comrade be captured and raped. I think a part of me would lose it and instinctively want to step in. Oddly, while it would disgust me to observe a capture and torture, I feel that I could hold my ground if it meant maintaining an advantage point -- ultimately annihilating the enemy entirely.

[annewandering]

There are two facets to what I said.

First, there's the idea of controlling chivalrous behavior. Contra Anatess, I think chivalry is entirely undesirable in war--at least, when directed towards fellow soldiers. If I hold a critical spotting or sniping position, and I see one of my female comrades get captured and raped on the spot: Do I let my chivalry take over, and stop that assault--thereby abandoning or betraying my position and endangering the mission?

Second, there's the idea of controlling baser behavior--sexual harassment, or whatever. Do I agree with you that it's unacceptable? Yep. But do I have any illusions that it's going to stop? Unfortunately, no; and the reason goes back to what an army inherently is.

The purpose of war is to kill people, break things, and make the enemy suffer in new and exquisite ways. The mission of soldiers, is to accomplish the above-stated purpose. So at some level, you've got to choose between having an effective fighting force, or a politically correct one.

I whole-heartedly agree.

I agree that chivalry is not a good plan in battle. I seriously doubt the women want to be treated as 'special' either. Consider this: If the soldier being beaten and raped was a man would you step in and endanger the mission?

Controlling behavior is not a politically correct issue. Its a moral issue and an ethical issue. If its wrong dont do it. Testosterone is not necessary to be a soldier. Good training and ability make a good soldier.

[Guest]

Absolutely we would want them too. You have to trust all of your fellow soldiers to watch your back while in battle. You don't want a soldier endangering the lives of all of the soldiers (men) because they were more protective of a female soldier. It's equal partnership out there.

I wasn't sure which direction you were going with on your comment. I could take it both ways.

And that's EXACTLY why I don't want women soldiers in the same vicinity as men soldiers in physical combat. Male chivalry is a societal necessity and is not something I want men to have to learn to suppress.

Same reason I don't want women playing with men in basketball or football. There's this youtube clip of a little kid in peewee football who is some kind of a running back getting smacked around by the opposing team but being able to get through the line... we are to think this little kid is really really good being able to take hits and still keep going... and at the end of the clip, they divulge that the kid is a little girl. I HATE that video.

Edited June 19, 2013 by anatess

[MarginOfError]

And that's EXACTLY why I don't want women soldiers in the same vicinity as men soldiers in physical combat. Male chivalry is a societal necessity and is not something I want men to have to learn to suppress.

It is?

Same reason I don't want women playing with men in basketball or football. There's this youtube clip of a little kid in peewee football who is some kind of a running back getting smacked around by the opposing team but being able to get through the line... we are to think this little kid is really really good being able to take hits and still keep going... and at the end of the clip, they divulge that the kid is a little girl. I HATE that video.

Sounds like a personal problem to me. I'd have been proud of her.

[Guest]

It is?

Yes, it is. In the survival of the species, it only takes 1 man but many many women to raise the next generation of soldiers.

Sounds like a personal problem to me. I'd have been proud of her.

I teach my 2 boys not to hit a woman. For any reason. Including football. Of course, you can teach your kids whatever you want.

[Guest]

Sometimes, we have to stop and really think about what gender EQUALITY means. MAN is equal to WOMAN but they are not interchangeable.

[Just_A_Guy]

Consider this: If the soldier being beaten and raped was a man would you step in and endanger the mission?

I wouldn't feel as compelled to intervene, no. And I'm not sure chivalry--which is a major component in preventing sexual harassment such as you describe--can be switched on and off on demand.

Testosterone is not necessary to be a soldier.

I guess we'll find out.

[MarginOfError]

Yes, it is. In the survival of the species, it only takes 1 man but many many women to raise the next generation of soldiers.

I have no idea where you're pulling this idea from, nor what it has to do with chivalry.

I teach my 2 boys not to hit a woman. For any reason. Including football. Of course, you can teach your kids whatever you want.

I teach my kids to just not hit people in general. However, if the girls want to play football, or lacrosse, or hockey, they are welcome to do so, but they have to be prepared to be hit and to hit back. The idea that we shouldn't hit a female who is willingly choosing to play a sport within the rules of that sport solely for the reason that she is female is ludicrous.

[Guest]

By the way, I have a Trivia... not sure if this still holds true. Jet Li refuses any movie where he has to hit a woman, so in Romeo Must Die, he uses a woman to hit the woman opponent..

[Traveler]

...

Anyway, what do y'all think about women fighting along side men? I thought they already were but I guess not..

Women becoming as lethal as men in conflicts? That for sure will be then end of traditional marriage and family - as well as non-traditional marriage and families.

BTW - the more women become like men the less they (as well as men) will be needed. - Dah!

The Traveler

[Guest]

I have no idea where you're pulling this idea from, nor what it has to do with chivalry.

From human biology, MOE. Hence the reason for chivalry. It's not ingrained in the male psyche just because it's a cool thing to have...

I teach my kids to just not hit people in general. However, if the girls want to play football, or lacrosse, or hockey, they are welcome to do so, but they have to be prepared to be hit and to hit back. The idea that we shouldn't hit a female who is willingly choosing to play a sport within the rules of that sport solely for the reason that she is female is ludicrous.

Men hitting women in the field of play desensitizes them in real life. Playground games are simply a kid's training ground - that's a Montessori principle. A woman asking to play contact sport with men is doing the men a disservice in the same manner that a dying patient asking a doctor to kill him may be good for the patient but is doing the doctor a disservice as it is putting a doctor at odds with what his nature needs to be.

Edited June 19, 2013 by anatess

[Just_A_Guy]

I teach my kids to just not hit people in general. . . .

I thought your kids were all girls?