Congratulate or ignore?

[Maureen]

I hate to strain at gnats, but how can I congratulate them on their actions if I don't support their actions?

You're not necessarily congratulating them on their actions, you're congratulating them on their happiness.

M.

[Lakumi]

I agree, congratulate their happiness, not the action. When I was a younger man I thought marriage in and of itself was a useless. mindless waste (I was an atheist, and harsh) and said I would never step foot in a church, or undergo any religious wedding.

Times change, for me, though I donno which church I'd pick since I don't belong to any specific church

[GodsServant]

I have gay friends, am a new convert of one year and am highly open minded. In my opinion, based on conversations I've had with gay friends, GAY is not a choice. What is a choice is how they act upon the challenges they have been given. I don't believe in judging others no matter what, Christ did not and we know this by his final prayer, "they know not what they do". If you are like me, and want your friend to be happy and know you are happy for them, by all means congratulate them. It's important for people around us to know we love them reguadless of what they do against what we believe. God knows how you feel in your heart and I don't believe he would condem you for being Christlike. I don't want to dig on others, but it is not our place to judge or choose for others, it is our duty to build others up. By showing your support for your friends happiness you are proving your own belief to him and may help bring him closer to God aswell as yourself.

[Maureen]

...I just wondered if I'd have temple recommend issues if I wished my friend well...

The only temple recommend question that might relate to this situation is this one:

Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

This can be tough, especially in how one can understand this question. We all have friends and acquaintances that we affiliate with but are not necessarily in relationships where we agree with everything that is a part of their lives; and probably vice versa for them too. How do we understand the word "affiliate" in relation to this question and in relation to the people that temple attending members affiliate with? Like for instance, gay people have families, mothers, fathers, siblings; some have LDS families. I can't imagine a temple attending person who has gay family members would have issues answering this question.

M.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Maureen
adding more

[carlimac]

For me it would depend on if they were LDS/bible believing Christian or not. I have one gay friend who was LDS and is now in a relationship of 10 years. We were both brought up with the same values. He knows he's chosen a way that our belief system doesn't condone so I doubt he would expect me to be thrilled with his choice. I can't even honestly say I'm glad he's happy because it would be like me saying "I'm glad you feel so relaxed when you drink alcohol." (He does that now, too.) But his family is totally on his bandwagon even though they are still LDS. They hope he'll be able to marry his partner in Utah someday. I don't get it at all. He was not born a different species that the rest of his family. He is still male capable of fathering children with a woman. He was absolutely best friends with a girl all through highschool. Had a good relationship with a woman. So it seems a crying shame that he's chosen this path.

If the person were someone who has no religious identity- doesn't believe in God or creation or gender or anything, I suppose I could wish them well. Otherwise, no.

[carlimac]

So I can just hear it..." I'm happy that you're happy but I really don't believe you're doing the right thing." I mean how do you word a congratulations based on the "love the sinner but not the sin" paradigm in this case?

[prisonchaplain]

You're not necessarily congratulating them on their actions, you're congratulating them on their happiness.

M.

But they are happy because they are doing something I believe God condemns. My understanding of tolerance is that the situation calls for nuetrality. "If you can't say something nice (i.e. because I believe the incident enshrines cultural immorality) then don't say anything at all."

Again I ask why I should congratulate someone on newfound happiness that comes at a spiritual cost to society? I'll take this one step further and suggest that we should not offer those congratulations.

The situation is awkward. It makes everyone uncomfortable. Why avoid it. "It is what it is" right? So...let it be uncomfortable.

Edited July 4, 2013 by prisonchaplain

[skippy740]

Just follow Thumper in the movie Bambi: "If you can't say something nice... don't say nothing at all."

[Lakumi]

I've always had female friends and had very low success with dating (eg- no success) maybe its different for LDS people and other Christians since they go somewhere every Sunday, a day I spend sleeping and playing card games

[Lakumi]

For me it would depend on if they were LDS/bible believing Christian or not. I have one gay friend who was LDS and is now in a relationship of 10 years. We were both brought up with the same values. He knows he's chosen a way that our belief system doesn't condone so I doubt he would expect me to be thrilled with his choice. I can't even honestly say I'm glad he's happy because it would be like me saying "I'm glad you feel so relaxed when you drink alcohol." (He does that now, too.) But his family is totally on his bandwagon even though they are still LDS. They hope he'll be able to marry his partner in Utah someday. I don't get it at all. He was not born a different species that the rest of his family. He is still male capable of fathering children with a woman. He was absolutely best friends with a girl all through highschool. Had a good relationship with a woman. So it seems a crying shame that he's chosen this path.

If the person were someone who has no religious identity- doesn't believe in God or creation or gender or anything, I suppose I could wish them well. Otherwise, no.

I've really only ever had female friends and never really had a relationship, maybe its different for LDS and other Christians, going somewhere every Sunday perhaps?

Or its just me, I have my theories...

Where I just sleep and play card games.

[mnn727]

Not everyone chooses to live a Celestial Law, These are they that will be in the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdom and they are still our brothers and sisters.

Why can't you be happy that they have found a little happiness here when so many don't?

[Maureen]

...Again I ask why I should congratulate someone on newfound happiness that comes at a spiritual cost to society?...

How is congratulating someone a spiritual cost to society? Society is made up of people who are on a variety of spiritual paths. How are your good wishes going to be a detriment to society?

M.

[jerome1232]

How is congratulating someone a spiritual cost to society? Society is made up of people who are on a variety of spiritual paths. How are your good wishes going to be a detriment to society?

M.

He didn't say that, he said that what he is congratulating comes at a spiritual cost to society. So why should he congratulate what he see's as something detrimental to society.

It's akin to congratulating that guy at the gas station who buys minors alcohol. "Congrats guy at the gas station, I'm glad you get the warm fuzzies with your charitable help for our towns minors" Not only is that ridiculous, it actually reinforces his idea that he is doing good.

Edited July 4, 2013 by jerome1232

[prisonchaplain]

How is congratulating someone a spiritual cost to society? Society is made up of people who are on a variety of spiritual paths. How are your good wishes going to be a detriment to society?

M.

I understand "congratulations" to mean "good job." You did well, I congratulate you. I don't see how to split the "congratulations on being happy" from "Congratulations on your same-sex marriage." Doesn't congratulations imply either approval, or at least "I guess it's not so bad after all...?"

Again, I'm not looking to argue or debate the celebrant. I'm not going to scowl or tsk tsk. Neither do I want to inadvertently offer any endorsement.

I don't see sin as a Terrestial/Telestail/Outer darkness choice. It's rebellion against God, or ignorance at best. Really, I'm supposed to congratulate this?

[Lakumi]

I understand "congratulations" to mean "good job." You did well, I congratulate you. I don't see how to split the "congratulations on being happy" from "Congratulations on your same-sex marriage." Doesn't congratulations imply either approval, or at least "I guess it's not so bad after all...?"

Again, I'm not looking to argue or debate the celebrant. I'm not going to scowl or tsk tsk. Neither do I want to inadvertently offer any endorsement.

I don't see sin as a Terrestial/Telestail/Outer darkness choice. It's rebellion against God, or ignorance at best. Really, I'm supposed to congratulate this?

unless they don't believe in God, but that opens up a whole new topic.

If you don't agree then say nothing, giving scorn would make everything worse and nothing better.

I can tell you from personal experience that people telling me of not agreeing with my choices or beliefs in life, none of those encounters turned out well...

I have a bad temper so maybe I am a bad example

[carlimac]

I don't see how to split the "congratulations on being happy" from "Congratulations on your same-sex marriage."

My question, too.

[Praetorian_Brow]

Its a social faux pas to say, no, I don't agree with your engagement, as both of you are only wanting the sex. At least, disagreeing with an engagement publicly is considered a huge social misstep and brings immediate condemnation.

I find it amusing that the majority of us recognize the validity of their choices and happiness, but at the same time, I would have to theorize that most of us are against same sex marriage. The Proclamation of the Family and all that jazz.

There seems to be a disconnect between what we expect the ideal to be and how we treat people. There shouldn't be, considering all that wonderful talk of loving thy neigbour and what not.

It was noted by a study that when guests come to stay, if we expect them to be different, the hospitality will be generous. However, if we make assumption or conclusions on who they are, we are more offended because we are disapointed that they didn't act as we expected them to. This is why extended family can be an irritating experience.

[prisonchaplain]

If I am understanding this correctly, we should smile and say "congratulations on the happiness you have found in your sexual immorality," to avoid social negativity?

Somehow Jesus was "a friend of sinners" without ever downplaying or endorsing sin. He may well have chosen his battles. He never failed to love. But, he also told the woman caught in adultery "Go and sin no more." To the Samaritan woman, it was his spiritually gleaned knowledge of her multiple marriages and current shacking up that convinced her he was a prophet.

Let me say for the umpteenth time that I do not advocate saying, "You sinners!" I do not encourage scowling or tsk tsking. But I will not, for the sake of social nicety, or as a matter of hospitality, bless or congratulate sin.

[Dravin]

Let me say for the umpteenth time that I do not advocate saying, "You sinners!" I do not encourage scowling or tsk tsking. But I will not, for the sake of social nicety, or as a matter of hospitality, bless or congratulate sin.

For what it's worth PC, I understand what you are saying and I can understand where you are coming from. To be brutally honest my willingness to wish someone happiness is a bit of a weasel between congratulating them and the expectation of a positive statement.

[carlimac]

For what it's worth PC, I understand what you are saying and I can understand where you are coming from. To be brutally honest my willingness to wish someone happiness is a bit of a weasel between congratulating them and the expectation of a positive statement.

There could be hidden meaning behind that wish. ("I wish your relationship collapses and that you'll eventually repent and thereby find true and eternal happiness.")

[Maureen]

If I am understanding this correctly, we should smile and say "congratulations on the happiness you have found in your sexual immorality," to avoid social negativity?...

Marriage is more than just having a sexual relationship with your spouse. Marriage is being a team, marriage is companionship, marriage is growing old together, marriage is laughing and dreaming together, marriage is being friends, marriage is fighting and learning from it, marriage is loving someone who also loves you.

M.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Maureen

[Leah]

Marriage is more than just having a sexual relationship with your spouse. Marriage is being a team, marriage is companionship, marriage is growing old together, marriage is laughing and dreaming together, marriage is being friends, marriage is fighting and learning from it, marriage is loving someone who also loves you.

M.

I am pretty sure that PC knows all that. He is addressing the sexual immorality of same-sex "marriage".

[Maureen]

I am pretty sure that PC knows all that. He is addressing the sexual immorality of same-sex "marriage".

I know that, I'm just pointing out that marriage is more than sex. So when we congratulate someone on their upcoming marriage, we're not actually saying good wishes on your sex life; we're saying good wishes for a happy married life, for all that marriage entails.

M.

[carlimac]

So if marriage is more than sex, why couldn't a gay person have that relationship with the opposite gender?

[skalenfehl]

I am reminded of the relationship between father and son in the LDS film, Testaments. The son had aspirations and desires to apprentice with Kohor and wanted his father's approval. His father could not approve, but he did express happiness for his son, though he knew that his son's happiness would only be temporary.

I would congratulate the couple. I'm not going to judge them. I have many gay friends and couples and I love them as I love anyone else and as Christ loves them. They don't subscribe to my beliefs but they are respectful of them. I can genuinely return the kindness. It is their choice to live as they will. Perhaps they know it is only temporary and they've accepted it. Maybe they believe there is nothing after this life and they want to be as happy as they know how now. Beliefs vary widely from person to person and couple to couple, gay or straight. Mormon had a perfect love for all, which I find amazing considering he was never remotely hardened by war. And yet he knew that he could not recommend any to God, except his own son Moroni. We should be so charitable toward all.