Birth Control

[directions]

My husband thinks birth control is evil in every way. Gasp!! I believe this is because he's just thinks it turns me into a complete psycho. But seriously....when used to prevent conception, according to Mormon Doctriine, BC seems to be strongly discouraged....but no one ever talks about this. Do they?

Hey A-Train..., I figured this would be a good way to chat with you...how ya doing up there? lol.

[MaidservantX]

Birth control is a necessity.

[directions]

True, it can be a major must for many! But after reading the BC section in Mormon Doctrine, I was just bug eyed over it...perhaps I read into it too literally...I mean, it helped me understand why my non member parents worry about me being a baby factory for the Mormon church. I'm going to really open up a huge can of worms if I'm not careful....but I am not bitter about this topic...just very curious, esp since it is not discussed specifically out loud, at least not that I am aware of.

[MaidservantX]

I agree, more information and discussion, say, in a Relief Society enrichment meeting, would be nice from time to time.

Btw, good thing the book 'Mormon Doctrine' . . . . . isn't Mormon Doctrine. Wasn't it written by Bruce R. McConkie? It's a very interesting book and very helpful and I personally love it. But it isn't canonized. Did the author quote any other source for his subject?

It's also a general teaching of the church to care for women and hold them sacred and to be wise with women's health (physical and emotional, etc). The main point is that both the husband and wife in the marriage should be wanting the child and should have planned for it and planned on it. They should have the same ideas WITH EACH OTHER (as opposed to referencing ONLY any church doctrine, real or supposed) as to how many children they invite to their home from Heavenly Father. Neither one of them (husband or wife) should be requiring the other to have a child they don't want or aren't ready for -- that's called unrighteous dominion. And THAT'S in the scriptures.

[a-train]

Mormon Docrine by Bruce R. McConkie in a nutshell says that 'marriage is ordained of God...that the earth might answer the end of its creation; And that it might be filled with the measure of man, according to his creation before the world was made.' (D&C 49:15-17)

I like the fact that this verse points out that a certain measure of created spirits are appointed to be brought to this earth through the powers of procreation.

McConkie also quotes Brigham Young and Joseph F. Smith who don't specifically ban the use of contraception, medical or otherwise. Joseph F. Smith does, however, speak against the 'sentiment or...feeling among any members of the Church to curtail the birth of their children.' (Mormon Doctrine p 86)

My personal feeling and interpretation of McConkie's entry on the subject is that while it contains no certain abjuration of contraceptive hormone medications, it does upbraid the self-centered procrastination or outright avoidance of procreation which is currently a trend in far more staggering numbers than in the time of McConkie or the Elders he quoted.

I personally don't like the moods I've noticed in my wife while enduring the various side-defects of her medications and hope to see her in a healthy situation devoid of foreign chemicals, albeit they are prescribed by medical professionals.

-a-train

[Gwen]

my understanding of this starts begins on these principles. within the church we do believe in modern revelations and that newer comandments become more important than the old. there is an old statment given to me at one point that said in a nut shell that sexual realations were for procreation and that "all sexual relations must be had at that risk". that's rather direct and not easily confused as to the meaning. however, pres hinckley has said that the couple should consider the health of the mother first, the health of the child, and counsel with god. that it is a decision between the three ppl, the couple providing the body's and the father of the spirits of which are to receive the bodies. ok that is my version of what he said. more current revelation has also stated that curtailing children for the purposess of obtaining worldly things first is not acceptable either.

ok, so does it really answer anything?......lol not really.

as i tried to figure all this out, this is the conclusion i've come to. that it is very much a decision between the couple and the lord. what may be a sin for me may not be a sin for you. what is a sin for me today may not be tomorrow. what i mean is when i prayed about this before conceiveing my first child i took it to the lord. i felt i was told that this was a matter for HF to decide and that i should not. i personally feel after receiveing such an answer it would have condemed me to have done so, i had just been told no. i continued this pattern after each of my children, i asked what i should be doing right then. and i got very specific answers. the pregnancies i've been through have been among my greatest tests, i have also learned more from them than the first 20yrs of my life (in reguards to testamony and personal revelation). after my 4th was born and i again took my question to the lord i got a different answer. i was told that i could, but my mind would not wander from my family's medical history with the pill, the few women in my family who have taken have almost died from it. after much prayer, i finally came to peace with that i could use any means i desired but the pill, not a risk that i should take. the things that are currently used i do not feel is a sin for me right now. the day i get the impression/revelation that it is time to have another, or to put that risk in the lords hands. that will be the day it becomes a sin...for me. not sure if i made that make since. lol

however i must also say, that in going through all this i've found many reasourses on the womans body and a couples fertility. i truely believe there are many other wonderful options out there that do not have the same potentialy horrible side effects as the pill. i know the pill may be right for some, but not for everyone. i think the medical profession is using it as a cruch and is not educating women on all the options and the reality of it all. i also believe the chruch does not. i've found a wonderful book that simply explains the fertility of couples, i learned things while pregnant that i had never known about my body from this reasearch. simply facinating. my husband took an institue class on the proclamation on the family before we were married, the things he told me about the class.......i was apalled. the only natural or "bc free" method of being responsible with your fertility was that of breast feeding to "naturally" space them 2yrs. i've promised my husband that if i ever get an opportunity to discuss this subject with this brother.....it won't be pretty. lol there are a lot more choices out there than the church or the medical field want to admit, just takes a lot of personal responsibility and revelation.

i do personally feel that any chruch that encourages couples to have children should assist in educating and providing materials to both males and females on how the body works and the fertility of a couple. i'm not talking sex talks, i'm talking all the in's and outs of the things that take place in the body to allow or prevent conception at different time. i think boys and girls should fully understand this (even though the majority of the information is geared toward the girls for obvious reasons). i also believe that this education needs to start well before a couple get married. once you are making the decision and praying for the right answer for you, it's a bit late in the game and only adds stress to what sould be a wonderful time, the first years of a marriage.

[StrawberryFields]

My husband thinks birth control is evil in every way. Gasp!! I believe this is because he's just thinks it turns me into a complete psycho.

If birth control messes with your chemistry then don't use that form. There is nothing wrong with him using a form of birth control.

Also, I have never heard that using birth control was evil.

[MaidservantX]

Just some anecdotal additions. Oh, and btw, although the breastfeeding works for some people it won't work for everyone -- it has a different effect on different women's bodies. I just mean, it's nice, but don't count on it. (It wouldn't have worked for me, it would have been less than 2 years.)

My sister in law gave birth to 9 children. It was at this point, and this point only, being totally weary, that she sought medical means of birth control -- wholeheartedly, desperately; knowing she was still otherwise fertile. By the same token she bottle fed her last two babies, something that even I judged her for, but from her point of view, she simply could not do it and stay sane with all of the other kids and duties she had. By the way, although no longer getting pregnant, she and her husband ADOPTED two other children (bringing the brood to 11) from a foreign country, which turned out to be far more emotionally taxing than giving birth, lol!! It took us 2 years to get those kids here.

Anyway, I also cannot take the pill, it messes with me too much. But before I realized this, and tried to use it, I did so to make sure my body had a rest (this was after child number 4), that there was a little bit of a space between chilluns, and so that I would be of a willing mind and heart whenever I or my husband desired to have relations with each other, so I wouldn't be so fearful and on the verge of freaking out for fear of getting pregnant whenever we wanted to express love to each other in this way.

I have discussed female physiology thoroughly with all of my children (of age), boys and girls. My oldest sons are 16 and 12. I have specifically had discussions with my boys about the timing of the cycle and the timing of pregnancies and of how pregnancies feel to women so they will know how to succor their wives. I will admit that there was nothing so flabbergasting to me as when I married my husband (he was 24) and he knew nothing of all this and I had to tell him the facts of life. I think that's just wrong. lol

[Gwen]

xhenli, we should swap some stories some time. lol

the breast feeding thing is worse than the myths out there. there is some hormonal foundation and thus it becomes believable. but it's not as good as many think, which makes it dangerous. it was not the case for me, and having not been better educated, i was scared out of my mind when i discovered that. because of that there were some hard emotional times i went through, that really took it's toll on not just me but my husband; and we just had a new baby to add to the stress. things could have been much better with some proper education. maybe it was somthing i needed to go through, but i sure wish i had known some of this stuff before.

[Maureen]

...I mean, it helped me understand why my non member parents worry about me being a baby factory for the Mormon church...

I know what you mean. When my LDS friend was expecting her 5th child she gave me a baby shower for my 1st baby and was almost 8 months pregnant at the time. She was having lots of hip problems and had a difficult time walking - he was a big baby. My mother (non-LDS) was very concerned for her and remarked to my friend's Mom and sister that this should be "her" last baby since she's having some problems. My friend's Mom and sister (per my mom's understanding) commented back that NO she couldn't stop, they had planned on having 12 children so they better have 12. My friend eventually had only 7 kids. :)

M.

[Fiannan]

Some good information --

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/s...th_control.html

[the_jason]

Birth control shouldn't be used to prevent birth. My wife has had it prescribed because of a medical condition she has. She had been taking it long before she met me, even when she was on her mission.

The key point to remember is that we are commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. If you take birth control to prevent that then it's probably not a good idea. I see nothing wrong with taking it for medical reasons or any other selfless reason.

[MaidservantX]

I skimmed some of that stuff, Fiannan. I could find nothing disagreeable for the most part. However, here is some more anecdotal stuff, and I can only speak for myself and those that I have observed close around me. May not apply to the very fine gentlemen on this site. In my case, my husband was quite worried about whether or not I was having enough children (and taking care of them) but he was not nearly as worried about whether or he should be earning more than minimum wage so that he could support all the children he thought I should be having. I find this to be true in many homes near where I live. The husband gets a 'job' and expects the number of children to be 5+, but does not consider how that particular job might or might not feed and care for them. If the husband wishes 5+ children, he should plan his career to be one that will easily support 5+ children, so that the wife feels peaceful and free to bear them. In these same homes, the husband gets the job and considers his responsibilities finished and then the remainder falls on the wife. She is required to teach piano or do some other 'home' or 'part time' employment or 'go back to school' because she realizes that the 'job' of the husband will not afford a home, medical expenses, food, diapers, clothes and a reasonable (not maniacal) amount of children's activities. Being poor should always be temporary -- if people find themselves truly poor, they should be working to change that. In my case, 4 of my six children born, their medical expenses were paid by state programs (welfare) therefore i.e. your taxes. How many more of those -- my -- children would you like to pay for??? I apologize if I don't sound very fair, this stuff is a raw place in me.

[Fiannan]

Do your children see dad go off to work every morning? That's more than a lot of kids see.

Do your kids know who their daddy is? Lot's in the USA don't.

Do your kids get spiritual guidance? That's more than a lot of rich kids get.

Does your husband actually work, play with the kids, love his family, etc,? Bet there's scores of women who would take him off your hands.

[Maureen]

My husband thinks birth control is evil in every way. Gasp!! I believe this is because he's just thinks it turns me into a complete psycho. But seriously....when used to prevent conception, according to Mormon Doctriine, BC seems to be strongly discouraged....but no one ever talks about this. Do they?

Hey A-Train..., I figured this would be a good way to chat with you...how ya doing up there? lol.

lds.org has much information to give - go to A-Z Index, look under Birth Control:

Birth Control

Children are one of the greatest blessings in life, and their birth into loving and nurturing families is central to God’s purposes for humanity. When husband and wife are physically able, they have the privilege and responsibility to bring children into the world and to nurture them. The decision of how many children to have and when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife...

Additional Information

Decisions about birth control and the consequences of those decisions rest solely with each married couple. Elective abortion as a method of birth control, however, is contrary to the commandments of God...

Birth Control

The general handbook of instructions for Church leaders has the following instructions concerning birth control: "Husbands must be considerate of their wives, who have a great responsibility not only for bearing children but also for caring for them through childhood…. Married couples should seek inspiration from the Lord in meeting their marital challenges and rearing their children according to the teachings of the gospel" (General Handbook, 11–4)...

One of the cornerstones of the gospel is agency or choice. Latter-day Saints believe that everyone will be held responsible for the choices they make. Many decisions involve the application of principles where precise instructions are not given in the General Handbook of Instructions or in the scriptures. The exercise of individual agency is therefore required, and Latter-day Saints believe that personal growth results from weighing the alternatives, studying matters carefully, counseling with appropriate Church leaders, and then seeking inspiration from the Lord before making a decision.

Church members are taught to study the question of family planning, including such important aspects as the physical and mental health of the mother and father and their capacity to provide the basic necessities of life. If, for personal reasons, a couple prayerfully decides that having another child immediately is unwise, birth control may be appropriate. Abstinence, of course, is a form of contraception. Like any other method, however, it has its side effects, some of which may be harmful to the marriage relationship...

Decisions regarding the number and spacing of children are to be made by husband and wife together, in righteousness, and through empathetic communication, and with prayer for the Lord´s inspiration. Latter-day Saints believe that persons are accountable not only for what they do but for why they do it. Thus, regarding family size and attendant questions, members should desire to multiply and replenish the earth as the Lord has commanded. In that process, God intends that his children use the agency that he has given them in charting a wise course for themselves and their families.

Do your children see dad go off to work every morning? That's more than a lot of kids see.

Do your kids know who their daddy is? Lot's in the USA don't.

Do your kids get spiritual guidance? That's more than a lot of rich kids get.

Does your husband actually work, play with the kids, love his family, etc,? Bet there's scores of women who would take him off your hands.

Fiannan, some kids' fathers pass away before their time.

M.

[MaidservantX]

I am aware of my blessings. I used to lay down at night next to my husband and give a thanks prayer to God that he was here with me. I learned to say that prayer, because I was so full of hurt, it didn't come naturally, but I am glad I learned to do it and I meant it.

Every thing you say is true enough, but every time you say 'kids', insert a number, I mean, lol? Would that be 2 or 8?? (per the topic of this thread, lol).

The answer in my case tho is no, he didn't go to work (there's a reason for that), 5 of the 6 yes, they do know who their daddy is (and number 6 will know as soon as he is old enough to be told); no, he didn't provide spiritual guidance except for existing who he was, which was better than zero, as you say, and no, did not play with kids. He did say he loved us from time to time.

However, this is beside the point as to the number of children, lol. My basic point, I guess, is that husbands and wives should initially, before they get married, should be joyfully looking forward to plenty of children. But that should be a pro-active, detailed even, plan -- including the kind of work the husband will do, the kind of work the wife will do (for each of them, their responsiblities in and out of the home), the kind of spiritual guidance there will be -- it should be definitely planned. If it turns out that the wife's health isn't what it should be, or the husband's paycheck wasn't what they thought, then that's ok, life gets in the way, it doesn't mean you can't have another kid, or that you have to have the originally number (range) planned. But this should be a mutual thing all around! That's all I'm saying. I personally don't know why we are leaning toward a population zero mind set in the world (lds and non lds alike), it's a brainwash to me. Let the kids come! But individually, in case by case marriages, no woman should feel like she's a baby popping machine or she's going to miss out on the celestial kingdom.

[Aphrodite]

Birth control shouldn't be used to prevent birth. My wife has had it prescribed because of a medical condition she has. She had been taking it long before she met me, even when she was on her mission

You cant just say 'it shouldnt be used'. Everybody's circumstances are different and you do need to prevent having children at certain times to be mature and adult. I believe we all have a right to education in this free western world we live in. Especially women. What happens if your husband dies and you have to support a family of a million kids just because your husband was too arrogant and selfish to use birth control? Im going to uni in september to get my degree, my own independance and education, just like the Prophet tells us. That will take 3 years and I do not plan on having children until it is finished, it would be highly irresponsible and very selfish to just 'have a child' before you have prepared adequately for it.

Quite frankly I think it is irresponsible to just pop one kid out after another without doing everything you can to provide a stable home. You cant just say, 'oh the lord will provide' if you dont plan and think responsibly first. Thats like living in a tent and saying, 'Oh the Lord will provide us a house' but you're not even looking for one.

If you take birth control to prevent that then it's probably not a good idea.

So, its not a good idea to get an education, work to pay off your debts, build your relationship with your spouse before the kids come along? When we have children, I am in a unique situation. I want to be able to work part time to a) bring in money as in this society we live in 2 incomes are almost essential, and B) I love my job and want to keep my mind active and my life full. However, I probably wont be able to work as there would be no one to look after the children but me. So thats that, but in the meantime, my husband and I are working to pay off our debts which we wouldnt be able to do if I wasnt working, which means we'd be saddled with it for years and years, I wouldnt have an education which would not be a good example to our kids. So, We are working towards a building a stable home for ourselves and our children. We look forward to children so much, but we know it is not the right time. I just loathe this church attitude of have them as soon as possible, NO MATTER WHAT! Dont be responsible, just pop them out! That is such a medieval attitude. We need to use common sense, and prayer. The former is something

[Jia]

I have personal opinions about this. I don't like birth control because it alters us chemically. I'm studying to be a Massage Therapists, so my views on any type of western medicine are different from most. Birth control prevents life as far as I'm concerned. I understand that people don't want to get pregnant, but if you know your body (irregular or not) you can prevent it yourself without the aide of medication. Not judging those who do use it, just saying my peace. To each his own. Or her own.

[Aphrodite]

Birth control shouldn't be used to prevent birth. My wife has had it prescribed because of a medical condition she has. She had been taking it long before she met me, even when she was on her mission

You cant just say 'it shouldnt be used'. Everybody's circumstances are different and you do need to prevent having children at certain times to be mature and adult about the circumstances of life. I believe we all have a right to education in this free western world we live in. Especially women. What happens if your husband dies and you have to support a family of a million kids just because your husband was too arrogant and selfish to use birth control? Im going to uni in september to get my degree, my own independance and education, just like the Prophet tells us. That will take 3 years and I do not plan on having children until it is finished, it would be highly irresponsible and very selfish to just 'have a child' before you have prepared adequately for it.

I have no shame in telling people Im on the pill and am enjoying the physical side of our relationship which builds your relationship, expresses love and increases your bond as a married couple. You shouldnt stop just so you dont have children!! That is so outrageously wrong I can't even believe people do it!!!!

Quite frankly I think it is irresponsible to just pop one kid out after another without doing everything you can to provide a stable home and life first. You cant just say, 'oh the lord will provide' if you dont plan and think responsibly first. Thats like living in a tent and saying, 'Oh the Lord will provide us a house' but you're not even looking for one. It wont just land in your lap. You need to do all you can, THEN the Lord will fill in the rest.

If you take birth control to prevent that then it's probably not a good idea.

So, its not a good idea to get an education, work to pay off your debts, build your relationship with your spouse before the kids come along? When we have children, I am in a unique situation. I want to be able to work part time to a) bring in money as in this society we live in 2 incomes are almost essential, and B) I love my job and want to keep my mind active and my life full. However, I probably wont be able to work as there would be no one to look after the children but me. So thats that, but in the meantime, my husband and I are working to pay off our debts which we wouldnt be able to do if I wasnt working, which means we'd be saddled with it for years and years, I wouldnt have an education which would not be a good example to our kids. So, We are working towards a building a stable home for ourselves and our children. We look forward to children so much, but we know it is not the right time. I just loathe this church attitude of have them as soon as possible, NO MATTER WHAT! Dont be responsible, don't think, dont plan, just pop them out! That is such a medieval attitude. We need to use common sense, and prayer. The former is something I think a lot of church members seem to lack.

[CrimsonKairos]

All men and women are created equal in terms of the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

All men and women are not created equal in terms of emotional endurance, mental acuity, physical fortitude or spiritual stamina.

As for how many children a couple should or shouldn't have, I think the old saying, "Don't bite off more than you can chew," applies.

Only a couple and God can decide what they can handle financially, emotionally, physically, etc...

Kids don't need their own Xbox 360's and their own cars and their own rooms, etc... They probably do need access to medical care and healthy food.

Each woman is different in her ability to handle giving birth, physically and hormonally.

My Stake Pres. and his wife decided to stop after three kids because the wife had such horrible depression after each birth, and was not well at all.

I hardly think Father in Heaven looked down on them or any other similar couple and said, "You slackers, s-u-c-k it up and pump out more children regardless of what it does to your physical and mental health!"

Here's the rule I've settled on:

Have as many or as few children as you can support, teach, and raise while still being physically and mentally stable yourself.

The number varies according to the couple.

I'd rather see two healthy and well-adjusted children being raised by a sane mom and dad, than see twelve neglected and attention-starved future social-deviants being raised by the same couple due to some erroneous understanding of what God expects them to make of their fertility.

[the_jason]

You cant just say 'it shouldnt be used'.

I can, because I just did.

What happens if your husband dies and you have to support a family of a million kids just because your husband was too arrogant and selfish to use birth control?

It takes two to tango. Keep your legs closed.

Im going to uni in september to get my degree, my own independance and education, just like the Prophet tells us.

He also says to not let those things stand in the way of our higher calling: rearing children.

So, its not a good idea to get an education, work to pay off your debts, build your relationship with your spouse before the kids come along?

Most people are well into their 30s before they are finished with school and financially secure. You're gonna wait until then to start having a family? You'll be changing diapers when you're 50. Life is about more than just money. The joy that children bring into a family is greater than the joy which any job or degree can bring. We have 3 children and we're only 30. I'm nowhere near where I'd like to be financially, but I wouldn't trade in my kids for financial freedom. I'll struggle my whole life if it means experiencing the joy of raising a family

I just loathe this church attitude of have them as soon as possible, NO MATTER WHAT! Dont be responsible, don't think, dont plan, just pop them out! That is such a medieval attitude. We need to use common sense, and prayer. The former is something I think a lot of church members seem to lack.

I have a feeling that's not all you loathe about the church. Nobody said anything about not planning, but planning doesn't mean you have to completely finished with school first. You can have children along the way.

[Jia]

He also says to not let those things stand in the way of our higher calling: rearing children.

Amen Jason! When we first got married my Mother in Law approached us and said that she didn't want us having kids until we finished college. We were in shock! That was until a few months later after General Conference when the Prophet stated that the family is the most important thing you can do in your life. She called and apologised. We haven't had children yet, but that's not because of any other reason that we're not healthy. I want healthy children and to be a good mother, and I need to get myself there before I can do that for my future kids.

Is it hard to raise kids and go to college/have debt/have a career? Of course! But it's also hard to have kids in any situation! My mother was 19 years old, divorced from my Father, working full time and going to college full time. But I also found an old term paper from one of her classes where she describes me as her priority, and that even if life was easier on her without me, she wouldn't have it any other way.

My brother and sister in law have one child, medical debt, and both are in college and I've never seen a more structured and good God fearing family. Their son gets attention he deserves, the parents get their education, and the marriage isn't suffering. They know what counts in this life: family.

[Aphrodite]

Most people are well into their 30s before they are finished with school and financially secure. You're gonna wait until then to start having a family?

Yes! Although I wont be well into my 30s Ill be 27. My husband has had his career sorted and settled for years and I get paid to train so we wont have debt to pay from that its from other areas. Its not just about money, Jason. Plus, I think if you are older when you have kids, and will be doing things in my 50s or whatever, that will keep you young lol. You can all your fun, planning and looking forward to kids when you are young then still be raising a family when ur older where everyone else will be grandparents at 35. i think thats great.

planning doesn't mean you have to completely finished with school first. You can have children along the way.

Uh, No I cant actually. My degree involves 50% practice and I would have to take time out to have a child which would mean I would fail the course. So no I couldnt do both.

Have as many or as few children as you can support, teach, and raise while still being physically and mentally stable yourself.

The number varies according to the couple.

I'd rather see two healthy and well-adjusted children being raised by a sane mom and dad, than see twelve neglected and attention-starved future social-deviants being raised by the same couple due to some erroneous understanding of what God expects them to make of their fertility.

Amen Crimson. Theres a family in our stake with 15 kids and they are famous for having a ridiculous number of kids, who they cant look after and who are turning into delinquents. We went round there once

and they were all just running around in circles in the living room. Parents were busy, they had nothing to amuse themselves as the parents couldnt afford to buy them things.

Plus, I do think that having all these kids is an American attitude that doesnt span the whole world of the church. Like I say, that family are big news over here as no one has that many children here. Everything is smaller, things are more expensive. It just isnt workable. The most kids people generally have here is 5. Id say the average is 3. I was one of 3, my husband 1 of 4. Im glad I was one of 3. My parents gave us all exactly the right amount of attention, love and belongings (because you do need some!) If there had been 10 of us, that wouldnt have happened, and I wouldnt have the relationship I have with my Dad especially today. You couldnt physically give 10 children, each the amount of attention you could to 3. Its just maths. Theyd all be lumped together. Anyway, I prayed long and hard about going back to uni and waiting for children and I know for a fact Im doing the right thing, and really that is all that matters.

[Fiannan]

Aphrodite, if I did not have a 6 week old who will wake soon I would fully respond to your article now. However, I'll just start here. I recently spent some time with a young work collegue (Finnish woman but grew up in Sweden) in Utah. We were chatting one evening and I sent her an article where the Pope was blaming individualism for Europe's suicidal birthrate. I asked her opinion and she offered me this:

Quite an interesting article. I wouldn't say that the focus on individuality is to blame for people not getting children anymore, but that the attitude towards getting children is to blame. I mean the most things you read and hear in the mass media is how hard it is for families with kids and how hard it is to make it all work. One gets frightened. And generally speaking also the attitude towards children is a bit crazy here (or actually in the west in general (apart from places like orem), many of my friends do not like children (friends in the age around 25 too, which is when most people should want kids). With an attitude saying that kids are a bit of a pain in the ######, that surely doesn't promote making a family.

So I don't know. Maybe one should send the people in a fertile age to Orem and places where you talk about children as the most precious and important things we have and can make, so we would get the birth rate up?

I'll note this young woman is an agnostic but has an attitude towards family that I wish more young LDS people would have.

OH, and if you believe that small families are wonderful and parents need to be total slaves to their children's egos then maybe you should read up on the teachings of psychological pioneer Alfred Adler's warnings to parents or read the article below:

http://www.nationofwimps.com/nationofwimps.php://

[CrimsonKairos]

Funny you should mention Adler.

I'm reading a book about psychology for screenwriters, and the author adapts Adlerian theories to dramaturgy. Haven't read all of it yet but I find it interesting.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have 12 kids because they will become neglected delinquents. If you can do 12 kids justice in terms of teaching and rearing, more power to you. There are people who can. Most can't. What's important is that the whole family...parents and children...are mentally and physically sound, and how many children each couple has is very much a factor in determining that.

I had three older brothers, one adopted sister, two foster brothers and one foster sister (not all simultaneously). My parents were the kind of parents I don't see often in the Church and world for that matter...they had a gift for parenting. I wouldn't expect any other couple to care for the same number of children as my parents because no couple is exactly like my parents.

It's totally individual, and Aphrodite, if you've received assurances through prayer, I really don't think anything anyone here says to you means a hill of beans compared to personal revelation. Good luck with your studies and future children.