National Border, Resources And Implications

[Dr T]

This is complex with multifaceted implications. Those of us from the United States might have some strong opinions on this issue. I'm interested in your thoughts and rationale of your beliefs/justification. For example, there is an issue about Mexican nationals flowing into various border states (i.e., Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and CA) and, of course, other states above them. Some of the complaints might be "They are taking our jobs," social security concerns, heath care, etc. The reason I'm raising this issue and those that might flow from it, is because yesterday I caught a clip about people complaining about health care and illegals. One of the questions I started to really think about was, "Why is the question, 'does everyone in this country deserve health care?' really a question? Maybe someone can help me understand how we can say, "Because we were born here, we deserve health care" and in the same breath say, "because they are not from here, they don't deserve health care." It seems to me, as people, regardless of where we are born, we need various services (food, health, living facilities, etc.). I understand that I cannot pay for each and every person to get the surgery they need or the education they want, etc. but when it comes to fundamental needs, I have a hard time saying, "They don't deserve it." What are your thoughts on issues like this?

Thank you

[JcDean78]

We are a sovern nation. Any nation in the world to exist must have boarders or else it no longer is a nation. For example if we had no boarders then where does Canada start? How about Mexico? Why not just allow them the right to vote in our elections and us the right to vote in theirs?

Ah but see that is it. That is the goal. One world Government under the UN with each former nation reduced to just a state of the UN. Since our way of life is in the minority world wide, this is one of the few ways the leftist can try and impose their socialism and world view upon us to take away our freedoms and enslave us.

Here is how I would fix the border without a fence needed at all. If these changes came to pass the whole issue would be over with in less than a week.

My fix 1. Deport all illegals.

2. Allow employeers to check legal status of workers before hirring (illegal to do now)

3. Prosecute those who hire illegals.

4. Prosecute those who house illegals.

5. Deny all governemt services to illegals (School, medical, food, etc...)

6. Deny children born in the US by illegals to be citizens. (New years day baby was an illegal.)

7. All legals MUST learn English

After all of the above is enacted and enforced then...

1. Look at a guest worker program that allows people to come and work from all over the globe.

2. Look at our current immigration limits and look for improvments.

3. All possible immigrants/guest workers must learn and pass a test on English, US History, and our founding prinipals. They must agree to become a part of our melting pot if they plan to stay.

4. All possible immigrants must be able to offer some skills that they can provide to our society.

5. Enact a nation ID card system. Those of us who wish to drive get it upgraded to a drivers license at the DMV. Perhaps it could also work as a passport.

6. Require ID card to vote.

At the health care question, I need to find some of my research on it. But basicly most Americans have been spoon feed doom and gloom from the media about health care. Those polled think their health care is great, but they think the rest of the countrys ######. How can that be then? So really we have a perception problem in this country, not a health care problem.

The government has no business at all in health care.

[the_jason]

The issue isn't the people coming into our country. I'd probably do the same thing to provide a better life for my family. The issue is the manner in which they come, or more importantly, those who allow them to be here illegally.

We have major healthcare issues in this country. We can't even treat our own people properly. Why should someone who just waltzes across the border inproperly be GIVEN the healthcare that my family and I fight for? Law breakers should not be given freebies. That's as insane as a convicted rapist getting a job at a daycare, or a drunk driver having his license renewed. It's absurd.

Healthcare professionals should do thorough background checks for all individuals, myself included, to make sure they haven't broken the law. Your rights stop when you break the law, and that should apply to everyone.

[Fiannan]

We should adopt the same immigration program that Mexico has -- you want tough, those guys have it. Also, ever wonder why the Mexicans are not willing to take back immigrants with open arms? Simple -- Mexico is a racist country. Most of the illegals coming here are either from Central America (just passing through Mexico on their way to here) or they are from the southern provinces of Mexico -- meaning almost all of them are Indians. The ruling class of Mexico is generally white and the middle class of Mexico is generally Mestizo (mixed white and Indian). Neither group has a tradition of friendliness to pure Indians and could not care less if they flock to the USA.

Also, on a side note, doesn't the Book of Mormon say that if the gentiles become unrightious then the people with part or full Lamanite blood will retake the land? Seems like since the USA fell in love with zero population growth, abortion, "alternative lifestyles" and disrespect to the culture of our ancestors the US has started a trend on being replaced -- just as much as the Euro-infidels are being replaced by Muslims.

[a-train]

I'll gladly accept their replacement!!!!!

I have a lot of friendly hispanic families that shop in my store that struggle with English. They are strong families with good values and seem to have true integrity and honor what little they have. Their work ethic is stronger than the average American. The kids are respectful and courteous and the parents make great sacrifices to provide for them. Meanwhile countless locals come through with bratty attitudes and slap their Amex on the counter that doesn't display the same last name as the child, complaining about every little thing they can think of.

Now I understand that there are good and bad people from every group, but I agree that if our righteousness cannot match that of the immigrants to this nation, we who have much and therefore possess the greater requirement will, like the slothful servant we have heard of, lose even that which we have.

Good comment Fiannan.

GOD BLESS US!

-a-train

[LT04]

I have no problem with them coming to the US, the great American dream was founded by outsiders taking a leap of faith coming here. Most of my ancestors came when the church was calling them to come to Navoo IL, and later SLC.

My concerns are:

1 )Social Security:

SS was designed from the beginning to have the working generation take care of the generation senior to them. Well the baby boomers out number the two generations that have come after thats going to be a problem when they all choose to retire. Persons not a citizen of this country doesn't pay into it at all and can get it b/c they are a single parent. I work every day and pay in to SS every day and don't qualify b/c I "make to much" my union hasn't had work for me since 5 DEC 06 so on unemployment I make to much money.

2 ) Medical Coverage:

Yeah every one should have medical coverage at a reasonable price. I belong to a union where I make a prevailing rate. Our Ins. coverage covers about half of what ever the bill is. (so if the bill is $400 I still have to pay $200) I'm praying my wife doesn't have any complications when she delivers our firstborn ( 1st b/c I don't want her to have to go through that horrible experience and) b/c we can't afford it. We both work we both pay taxes and as a result of making slightly above min. wage we make to much to qualify for DSS support. The dept of the Army and the VA didn't help me at all when I got hurt overseas and medically discharged I paid for every thing, it almost took me to bankruptcy court but I paid every penny of it. I got hurt in service to this nation why can this nation afford to take care of citizens of another nation and not a legal citizen who was wounded for this country?

3 ) New York City and its illegal populous:

New York City is considering starting a state funded program where they will pay low income families (legal or not) living in the five burroughs for accomplishing specific tasks the proposed list included the following: 1 ) taking children to a Dr.'s check up once a year. 2 ) getting a job. 3 ) going to a vocational school. 4 ) students who do well on a test. Why should they get paid to be responsible. I have a job went to a vocational school and did well on all my tests and I didn't get any thing.

4 ) what's the incentive for me to want to do well when I could go work at burger king for min wage lose all the benefits the union gives me and get all that back and more by going to DSS?

-LT04

[a-train]

LT,

With a straight face, totally serious, my advice is that I would look into leaving that union situation and get into something better.

You know your situation best, pray and make good decisions.

But I want to remind you of the God given powers and abilities you possess. You might be much more capable than your current occupation and if it isn't providing you and yours with necessary accomodations then don't sink into a mindset that holds you captive in an employment or unemployment status that is insufficient for your needs.

Even in this turbulant and slanted system we reside, the LORD is still ever-able to provide for the saints and bring about the further building of Zion. The only power the Devil has to prevent us from our work is the fear that the LORD will not provide for us and the disrememberance that all things are given to us freely from God.

We need not believe the lie that: 'there is no free lunch'. It is all free, we are all beggars. And though the rich may glut themselves in greed and deny the hand of God in all things, God will pour out blessings on the righteous who acknowledge the origin of all over which they are stewards.

Fear not to place your temporal salvation in the hands of God and to stand at the helm of your stewardship in exchanging your talents with the money changers to bring about an increase for the Master.

GOD SPEED, GOD BLESS

-a-train

[prisonchaplain]

Mexicans keep our population stable, and the fill the labor pool for many of our dirty, low-paying positions. Some come here to do illegal business.

Ironically, nobody seems overly concerned with our northern border. Not that this is a racial thing. The income difference between Mexico and the U.S. creates added stressors.

The real shame on this issue is that the U.S. looks incompetent, because we do not manage our borders efficiently. Legitimate legal immigrants often wait for years to get processed. In the mean time, illegals slip in with ease. There are occasional clamp downs, but also occasional amnesty programs.

If we are serious about border management, we must fund more agents, but also more paper-pushers to process legitimate applications in a more timely manner. If we efficiently processed immigration--especially the most desirable kind (those with money and skills), we'd find it easy to control the illegal side, and to be more consistent.

[LT04]

A-train,

Thanks for your concern. I have been preparing for a government exam that comes out this AUG. Its a city job and they are in desperate need of filling those positions, normally its every 4 years but they moved it down to 2 and 1/2. I know some people on the inside who have been a great deal of help. So I just need to cope with it till then. I'm not in any imeadiate trouble, its not like I have credit card payments or even car payments and my mortgage is less than half of what it would cost to rent in my area (b/c of the recent housing boom here due to Fort Drum doubling in size recently.)

-LT04

[Fiannan]

Immigration is great! Well, for big business. And guess how much the taxpayers pick up in additional costs for the "give us your tired and poor..." line that never was taken literally until the 1960s?

Read and weep:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/SR9.cfm

[CrimsonKairos]

I get tired of all the illegals who basically stroll up behind the Statue of Liberty, slide a jar of vaseline forward between its legs and say, "Bend over."

Ridiculous.

I'm not above helping my fellow man, but governments aren't like individuals and governments shouldn't try to do the job of Christ-like citizens.

The proper role of government is to protect equal rights, not provide equal things!!!

[shanstress70]

Ironically, nobody seems overly concerned with our northern border. Not that this is a racial thing.

I don't see a Canadian's face in the news every day bc they've murdered someone, or killed someone bc they were driving drunk. I also don't know of any Canadians who come here and get on welfare and don't pay taxes. I have hired, or work with, many Canadians and they all seem to come here and work, pay taxes, and save up money to eventually move back to Canada.

No, I'm not crazy about Canadians coming here and taking jobs away from Americans, but at least they generally pay taxes and are not a drain on our social programs.

Oh BTW, Canadians also tend to come into the country legally. I don't care what color your skin is, or what country you're from... I will not be against you coming into the US if you come here to work, PAY TAXES like the rest of us have to, abide by our rules, don't drain our social programs, and don't break the law.

[Dr T]

I have hired, or work with, many Canadians and they all seem to come here and work, pay taxes, and save up money to eventually move back to Canada.

Substitute "Mexican" for "Canadian" in the above sentence, and I could say the same thing. I want to respond to the other posts on this thread but it will have to wait.

[LT04]

I live 20 miles from the Canadian border. I have that if they want to immigrate they don't cross the border and pray it will all be ok, they contact the government go through the legal channels and apply for citizenship BEFORE they move here. They tend also to follow legal protocol for obtaining work here as well. I'm sure not all Canadians do this but you deffinetly don't hear about this happening like you do the Southern border.

Just my two cents,

-LT04

[JcDean78]

I live 20 miles from the Canadian border. I have that if they want to immigrate they don't cross the border and pray it will all be ok, they contact the government go through the legal channels and apply for citizenship BEFORE they move here. They tend also to follow legal protocol for obtaining work here as well. I'm sure not all Canadians do this but you deffinetly don't hear about this happening like you do the Southern border.

Just my two cents,

-LT04

and they speak English and become part of the melting pot. the people south of the border do not.

[rosie321]

<div class='quotemain'>

I live 20 miles from the Canadian border. I have that if they want to immigrate they don't cross the border and pray it will all be ok, they contact the government go through the legal channels and apply for citizenship BEFORE they move here. They tend also to follow legal protocol for obtaining work here as well. I'm sure not all Canadians do this but you deffinetly don't hear about this happening like you do the Southern border.

Just my two cents,

-LT04

and they speak English and become part of the melting pot. the people south of the border do not.

English and French, although they don't expect French to become a national language when coming to the US As previous posts said they melt in very nicely, the majority enter in legally and they do not become a burden on our system when here.

[shanstress70]

I have hired, or work with, many Canadians and they all seem to come here and work, pay taxes, and save up money to eventually move back to Canada.

Substitute "Mexican" for "Canadian" in the above sentence, and I could say the same thing. I want to respond to the other posts on this thread but it will have to wait.

The situation must be different where you live then, and that's great. There are MANY illegals here to do many types of work, but mostly the following: work for lawn service companies, hog farms, construction, cleaning houses. There are well-known spots around my city where you can go if you're looking for help for a day, and pick a Mexican guy out of a lineup. It is understood that you will pay him in cash. I'm sure he's going to turn this money in and pay taxes on it. A lot of these people do NOT pay taxes and they are NOT here legally.

I hate that we can't let everyone in the world who desires to come here in and pay for all their medical care, food, shelter... but we just can't. I really would love to fix everyones' problems. But it's not feasible. Lets keep it open for a set number of people each year who do it the RIGHT way, the law-abiding way. Not the "I'm coming in whether you like it or not, and you owe me" way.

[Fiannan]

Again I am going to post this interesting article:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/SR9.cfm

On the Canadian issue, correct me if I am wrong but most Canadians have skills. Again, correct me if I am wrong but most illegals from south of the border don't even have a high school education. If a large population of people who can't speak English and have little training even in Spanish make for a good economy then maybe we should encourage our youth to all drop out of high school, or even middle school, becaue even if they do speak our language at least the economy of the USA will boom!

[rosie321]

Again I am going to post this interesting article:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/SR9.cfm

On the Canadian issue, correct me if I am wrong but most Canadians have skills. Again, correct me if I am wrong but most illegals from south of the border don't even have a high school education. If a large population of people who can't speak English and have little training even in Spanish make for a good economy then maybe we should encourage our youth to all drop out of high school, or even middle school, becaue even if they do speak our language at least the economy of the USA will boom!

The Canadians come as guests and do not expect the US to meet their every demand.

The Mexicans on the other hand come here and want our country to be run as theirs. Isn't that one of the reasons why they are leaving their country to come here and work? Because their system of government is not working? They are not getting paid enough to support their families. (even though many of our US jobs have been sent there). What are they going to do to make things better in their country or to get here legally? (just walking over the border is not legal)

Also if you are invited as a guest to someones country or go through the legal process you should seek to make it better. You're in someone elses house. Don't demand that things are done the same way as your home. If you don't like it there's the door go back home. Illegals should be removed and asked to come through our doors not our windows. To work within our systems just as anyone else should.

Otherwise our country will continue to undergo many hardships. How can we expect to teach our children to obey the law when we are not holding accountable the ones who are breaking it but instead giving them a free pass to commit more without accountablity? We are financially rewarding them by offering social security and free healthcare. What incentive is there to finish school as fiannan pointed out? Or to gain skills which might keep meaningful jobs in our country?

No one in government seems to take the illegal part of this seriously or the burden it has become on the average american. They are too busy counting votes. This in my opinion, will be one of those areas where tensions will boil under the surface and be glossed over until they finally blow up. What a disaster it will be when it finally does explode. It will take a long recovery period, if its even possible.

[Dr T]

My best friend lives in TX and owns a pizza place. Many Mexican people want to work for him and many of his best workers are Mexican. He reported that the Mexican staff tend to work for their dollar while the U.S. citizens are so lazy, stand around, and complain about working. He is also an attorney and started looking into immigration issues. He said that someone that is illegal, must return pay $10,000, return to Mexico and wait a lot of years before they are able to come back. Pragmatically, this turns people away from "doing it the right way." In the mean time, he hires lame U.S. citizens with poor work ethic and entitlement issues. Something's not working.

[shanstress70]

My best friend lives in TX and owns a pizza place. Many Mexican people want to work for him and many of his best workers are Mexican. He reported that the Mexican staff tend to work for their dollar while the U.S. citizens are so lazy, stand around, and complain about working. He is also an attorney and started looking into immigration issues. He said that someone that is illegal, must return pay $10,000, return to Mexico and wait a lot of years before they are able to come back. Pragmatically, this turns people away from "doing it the right way." In the mean time, he hires lame U.S. citizens with poor work ethic and entitlement issues. Something's not working.

He's hiring the wrong people. You don't really think there are no good American workers, do you? Perhaps he needs to advertise in a different place. When I was in college, I waited tables at a pizza place and worked my butt off. I remember that most of my coworkers worked very hard too. Surely it hasn't changed that much. Anyone with common sense realizes that if they are lazy, they will not make good tips. Don't they?

[Dr T]

Thank you Shan. I agree. I wrote that last post to prove a point. When we talk in generalities, as many of the above posts have, we might often miss a lot in those blanket statements. If we really think that all the people from Mexico come here, with no skills, are all uneducated, etc. or say, "just go through the process legally" as if it is an easy process, it shows me that there is a huge gap there.

[rosie321]

My best friend lives in TX and owns a pizza place. Many Mexican people want to work for him and many of his best workers are Mexican. He reported that the Mexican staff tend to work for their dollar while the U.S. citizens are so lazy, stand around, and complain about working. He is also an attorney and started looking into immigration issues. He said that someone that is illegal, must return pay $10,000, return to Mexico and wait a lot of years before they are able to come back. Pragmatically, this turns people away from "doing it the right way." In the mean time, he hires lame U.S. citizens with poor work ethic and entitlement issues. Something's not working.

Good points Dr T. We can't blame it all on our Mexican neighbors. The US has many homegrown problems all on its own. If there were no benefits for it the illegal immigrant problem would not be an issue

There are a lot of bad US workers especially in certain job areas. Some places really do have a difficult time retaining a good workforce who actually wants to work. Created by a bunch of different reasons including our welfare programs, unions, debt obligations, sense of entitlement, and our self esteem programs which tell people they are too good to work certain jobs or in certain places or have to follow certain rules. There are some jobs considered "menial" work that is "below" people. Like working at a fast food restaurant or even according to Kerry working in the military. But there still are good hardworking people that would work those jobs (and do). They shouldn't have to pay the the high cost of illegal immigration from their wages.

The immigration system is in desperate need of overall. The paperwork end and the costs are high. You're right in that observation. Why would people go through the complicated system if they can walk right in? Priority should be given to make the processes easier for people entering this country legally and the ways should be hedged up for illegal immigrants to enter. For securities sake and to decrease the burdens (such as healthcare) created in various locations.

The way it appears nothing will be done except encouraging people to walk in and take from our social programs and medical programs making it so our own workers can't afford to work.

los estados unidos - EL Nuevo Mexico Grande?

[shanstress70]

Thank you Shan. I agree. I wrote that last post to prove a point. When we talk in generalities, as many of the above posts have, we might often miss a lot in those blanket statements. If we really think that all the people from Mexico come here, with no skills, are all uneducated, etc. or say, "just go through the process legally" as if it is an easy process, it shows me that there is a huge gap there.

I'm sure there are a few Mexicans who come here legally, who have skills and take care of themselves. However, I think most of us would agree that MOST of them are the ones we've spoken of in previous posts. As I've said before, those are the ones I'm speaking of. I'm in agreement of skilled, law-abiding Mexicans coming to America. I really did think I said this earlier.

[CrimsonKairos]

So the immigration laws and the INS/DHS need to be revised and updated.

That doesn't justify breaking laws, even if the laws aren't "easy" to follow.

You don't force a change in law by breaking the law.

That's ridiculous.