Can you be a liberal or socialist and be LDS?

[Lakumi]

not all Liberals agree with abortions

I always find it hard to vote for anyone, really... usually I just go NDP, but there are things I am conservative about, and there are things I am liberal about.

I don't fit into one side.

I like free health care and lack of guns, but I think the army shouldn't be as much of a joke as it is. Stuff like that

[Praetorian_Brow]

Thanks for validating that I do have an opinion, it means so much to me to told that by someone else on the internet believes I can have an opinion, especially an American.

Doesn't change that your comment about baby killers is inflammatory and a disservice to those who consider themselves liberal, regardless of country. Odd that you seem to think being an American is more important than your accusation that liberal thinking equates to baby killer status.

For the record and before you accuse me of being liberal, perhaps I am, perhaps I am not.

[yjacket]

I think the answer is yes, one can be LDS and socialist, anarchist, liberal, etc. In general, the scriptures do not discuss politics much - or at least what should be the correct political thought according to God. Maybe that was what is in the sealed portions of the BoM??

I believe it is up to each individual to come to their own understanding as to what political leaning they should have within the framework of the Gospel. Given that, one can still take the Scriptures and pretty much justify their own political base from the scriptures alone.

However, I personally believe that most individuals do not have a solid deep grasp and understanding of their own political thought. They are xyz because of either culture, education, or parental upbringing. Individuals are "liberal" because it feels good, or they are "conservative" because they want to preserve the "old-ways", etc. They can't tell you why or the root principle of their belief.

I also believe that the more an individual studies the Gospel and the scriptures and tries to harmonize their life with it, the more that such individuals will tend toward political leanings that eschew the use of violence and force to impress upon others the righteousness of their ideas.

[bytor2112]

Thanks dahlia, you just killed the innocent question asking vibe, attached your own country specific interpretation and made this post into a rage induced, soon to be blocked political discussion.

Your interpretation of liberal is extreme and asking for a fight, given that most people do not see themselves in the way you have associated. Again, outside of the U.S. liberal means something entirely different than simply....baby killer.

I doubt that many here in the US truly understand the corrosive rot that is "liberalism" and thankfully we have not embraced the cradle to grave mentality that has all but destroyed enterprise and individualism in Europe...at least not yet. Though big government statists like Obama managed to package it with slogans like "yes, we can" and stir the mindless masses ( I know not all who voted for him are mindless) into a frenzied fearful need for Uncle Sam to pad their pockets with the fruits of others labors and cause a general disdain for the 1% who by the way, pay for all the government goodies they are clamoring for while decrying the evils of those who provide it.

For most Americans liberalism and especially socialism is met with disdain and not a part of the fabric that makes America great. The new code word is now progressive..same poison with a different label.

[Backroads]

Back to the original question, if one can be a "socialist"... I do have to wonder on that. From my understanding of socialism according to the ideal, religion is usually discouraged if not outright banned.

[Lakumi]

Back to the original question, if one can be a "socialist"... I do have to wonder on that. From my understanding of socialism according to the ideal, religion is usually discouraged if not outright banned.

no that's communism, and that's quite different

while the two are related they aren't the same

[skippy740]

In general, the scriptures do not discuss politics much - or at least what should be the correct political thought according to God.

The Book of Mormon and D&C discusses politics and government EXTENSIVELY.

I don't think it's a coincidence that we study The Book of Mormon in Gospel Doctrine every election year.

[Backroads]

no that's communism, and that's quite different

while the two are related they aren't the same

I stand corrected.

[LittleWyvern]

Pardon me if, as an American, I respond as an American. I'll never apologize or back down for that. I know a number of Europeans and two Aussies, I'm well aware of different interpretations; I gave you my opinion on whether one can be liberal or socialist and LDS. I think not. If you disagree, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it.

Well, sure, that's fine, but your answer labels many members of the Church in countries across the world, including many in the United States as well as many on this board, as apostate (or at least sinful enough to not take the Sacrament, whatever you take that to mean) simply because they do not subscribe to the beliefs of a particular political party in a particular country. You are casting the political beliefs of those who disagree with yours in the worst possible light, which I don't think is warranted. Consider this statement by the First Presidency, which is given before nearly all large political elections and most recently given last year:

Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in the platforms of the various political parties.

There's obviously many reasons that one identifies with a political party. When it comes down to it, no one political party is 100% compatible with Church teachings. If I were to use your treatment of liberals, I'm sure I could make people of any political persuasion look like vile, evil sinners. Apart from moral issues, one's political beliefs do not affect one's standing in this Church. That wouldn't even make sense in a worldwide church, where anybody can be a worthy member of the Church regardless of what country they live in. Saying you can't be a good Mormon simply because of the political party or persuasion one belongs to is simply wrong.

Edited August 14, 2013 by LittleWyvern

[Windseeker]

Communism destroys man’s God-given free agency... Latter-day Saints cannot be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies. They will prove snares to their feet.”

- Prophet David O. McKay, see R. Clayton Brough, His Servants Speak, 1975, p. 77

“No true Latter-day Saint and no true American can be a socialist or a communist.”

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, as quoted in The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, by D. Michael Quinn

“There are some who apparently feel that the fight for freedom is separate from the Gospel. They express it in several ways, but it generally boils down to this: Just live the gospel; there’s no need to get involved in trying to save freedom and the Constitution or stop communism.... Should we counsel the people, ‘Just live your religion – there’s no need to get involved in the fight for freedom?’ No we should not, because our stand for freedom is a most basic part of our religion.”

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, General Conference talk, October 1966

I myself vote mainly conservative/libertarian but I am very liberal when it comes to the environment. I tend to hold with the views of President Spencer W Kimball and Hugh Nibley.

"If we choose to defile the earth, we must live with the stench, sickness, death, and ugliness of a ravaged environment, and will answer to the creator for desecrating his property. The Lord does not interrupt free agency, and he suspends the consequences of poor exercise of agency only for the repentant. Again our options narrow down to either desecration or consecration. If we choose consecration, the fullness of a renewed, paradisiacal earth will be ours, and we will inherit all the Father has. If we choose desecration, we will remain under degraded conditions, and the Lord will weep over our loss." - Spencer W. Kimball

My personal view is that LDS who identify as Liberal in all things, including abortion and gay marriage, seem to prefer the praise of man more the praise of God. If I'm wrong about it then let’s at least consent that whether or not they seek praise, they certainly obtain the praise of man more than those who oppose such things. It’s not for me to judge on their worthiness, so I can’t say it makes them any more or less worthy than a person who identifies as Conservative.

[yjacket]

The Book of Mormon and D&C discusses politics and government EXTENSIVELY.

I don't think it's a coincidence that we study The Book of Mormon in Gospel Doctrine every election year.

I didn't say it didn't discuss politics only that "or at least what should be the correct political thought according to God." Yes, the BoM and D&C discuss government, but try going into Sunday School and start a lesson about the evils of ObamaCare or Democrats . . . you'd be going off in left field.

Depending on the set of scriptures and the time period, one will get many different answers. Yes, all sets of scripture discuss politics and government, but generally speaking the actual "content" of the scriptures isn't about telling the rest of mankind exactly what political structure should be set up - it's about telling mankind how they should comport themselves with the rest of their fellow human beings.

The actual context of scriptures as referencing government has been interpreted differently in many different ages and cultures depending on the social construct of the people reading the scriptures.

The Book of Mormon and the D&C are uniquely American scriptures in that they reflect and were/are interpreted through the lenses of American ideals. Even so, the interpretation of government has changed over the past 100 years. Originally, the Saints set up their own country, their own Theocratic government. That was eventually rolled up into the state of Utah, and the different interpretations on the role and function of government have changed according to the culture and times. For example, I highly doubt we will ever have a prophet again like Ezra Taft Benson who was involved with the John Birch Society and who's talks reflect to a good extent those political philosophies.

It is also very interesting and will continue to be very interesting to see the interpretation of government in the future as the Church grows more internationally.

I for the record am very libertarian, but I recognize that many other people can and will have different interpretations of government, even if they are LDS.

And for the person who asked about socialism and religion.

Christian socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Christian communism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just b/c the main branch of Communism/Socialism was atheist, doesn't mean it can't exist. I would argue that even if it starts out as Christian socialism, it will eventually tend towards a godless society, but there are still people who believe in the two.

[yjacket]

Communism destroys man’s God-given free agency... Latter-day Saints cannot be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies. They will prove snares to their feet.”

- Prophet David O. McKay, see R. Clayton Brough, His Servants Speak, 1975, p. 77

“No true Latter-day Saint and no true American can be a socialist or a communist.”

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, as quoted in The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, by D. Michael Quinn

I personally really like these quotes and I believe them to be true. But I would add, no person who truly understands socialism, communism and the gospel. Socialism/Communism and the Gospel are completely incompatible, and I firmly believe that if one understands them, one will come to the same conclusion.

My original point is that (especially in foreign countries that do not have a history of understanding socialism, the gospel, etc), the one can start off adhering to one political belief or another but that as one understands the Gospel more and more, one will move away from any political belief that "destroy's man's God-given free agency".

[Just_A_Guy]

Thanks for validating that I do have an opinion, it means so much to me to told that by someone else on the internet believes I can have an opinion, especially an American

You're welcome. We Yanks even give you Canucks permission to be ornery and (contrary to your national identity) just a smidge impolite on occasion, if you really want to.

Odd that you seem to think being an American is more important than your accusation that liberal thinking equates to baby killer status.

She didn't say they *are* baby killers; she said many of them *vote* for baby killers. When the current de facto head of the Democratic Party is on record supporting partial birth abortion and opposing born-alive legislation, I think that's sadly accurate. Partial birth abortion is a nasty business, and if the truth is inflammatory--so be it.

[bytor2112]

Well, sure, that's fine, but your answer labels many members of the Church in countries across the world, including many in the United States as well as many on this board, as apostate (or at least sinful enough to not take the Sacrament, whatever you take that to mean) simply because they do not subscribe to the beliefs of a particular political party in a particular country. You are casting the political beliefs of those who disagree with yours in the worst possible light, which I don't think is warranted. Consider this statement by the First Presidency, which is given before nearly all large political elections and most recently given last year:

Of course, that is not what she wrote. She simply stated her opinion and one I share as well. Voting for candidates that support abortion on demand is unacceptable in my view. If as a member of the church I paid for an abortion I could be subject to church discipline. So many believe that supporting an organization that is the champion of abortion in all of it's nasty forms is not any different. Clever labeling like "choice" is as deceptive as any lie Satan has ever spun.

[LittleWyvern]

Of course, that is not what she wrote.

That's what I got out of this, among other things:

When I meet a liberal Mormon I wonder what is wrong with their thinking and how do they can take the Sacrament when they vote for baby killers.

Voting for candidates that support abortion on demand is unacceptable in my view. If as a member of the church I paid for an abortion I could be subject to church discipline.

Which is why I wrote this:

Apart from moral issues, one's political beliefs do not affect one's standing in this Church.

Assuming all members of (insert party/group you don't like here) are "baby killers" or support abortion on demand is a malicious oversimplification, especially when it comes to complex topics such as abortion where there are many more than two schools of thought.

[bytor2112]

Assuming all members of (insert party/group you don't like here) are "baby killers" or support abortion on demand is a malicious oversimplification, especially when it comes to complex topics such as abortion where there are many more than two schools of thought.

Assuming all Nazi's wanted to send Jews to the ovens is an oversimplification as well, but the ideology (Nazism) was evil. I'll insert it for you Democratic Party...and again, she nor I stated that all members of the party are baby killers, but do support by their vote the practice and it really isn't all that complex. the church's stance is quite appropriate and seems fairly simple...

[Just_A_Guy]

Assuming all members of (insert party/group you don't like here) are "baby killers" or support abortion on demand is a malicious oversimplification, especially when it comes to complex topics such as abortion where there are many more than two schools of thought.

Dahlia's post was much more carefully worded than you seem to have noticed. Might I respectfully invite you to read it again?

[LittleWyvern]

Assuming all Nazi's wanted to send Jews to the ovens is an oversimplification as well, but the ideology (Nazism) was evil. I'll insert it for you Democratic Party...

And I thought the worst thing that would happen to this thread was Ried bashing.

...and again, she nor I stated that all members of the party are baby killers, but do support by their vote the practice and it really isn't all that complex.

Dahlia's post was much more carefully worded than you seem to have noticed. Might I respectfully invite you to read it again?

Well, I thought it was pretty clear, but I suppose it is worth a re-read:

Maybe somewhere there is an ethical, pro-life, Democrat that is worth the vote, but I haven't seen one lately. As long as they are for taking from the producers to give to those who won't (not can't, won't) produce, who seek to demonize every aspect of religion from saying 'Merry Christmas' to wearing a cross on a necklace at work, who have turned caring for the environment into a religion, and who call black conservatives 'Oreos' and 'Uncle Toms,' I'm not voting for them.

...[w]hen I meet a liberal Mormon I wonder what is wrong with their thinking and how do they can take the Sacrament when they vote for baby killers.

Did I miss something when I connected "Democrat" and "liberal" with "they?"

the church's stance is quite appropriate and seems fairly simple...

Indeed. Principles compatible with the gospel can be found in the various political parties. Apart from certain moral issues, one is not apostate simply because they belong to a particular political party (or do not belong to a particular political party).

EDIT: I also want to make it clear that I believe abortion, when not done according to the guidelines the Church has set, is a sin, as well as supporting those who do so.

Edited August 14, 2013 by LittleWyvern

[bytor2112]

And I thought the worst thing that would happen to this thread was Ried bashing.

Imagine that...you actually don't think Reid is worthy of bashing...pshh.

Indeed. Principles compatible with the gospel can be found in the various political parties. Apart from certain moral issues, one is not apostate simply because they belong to a particular political party (or do not belong to a particular political party).

Nice that you can set aside "certain" moral issues and still find those compatible principles. Some of us can't.... but alas, some of us eat bread with the butter side down.

Edited August 14, 2013 by bytor2112

[Just_A_Guy]

Did I miss something when I connected "Democrat" and "liberal" with "they?"

Yes. The words "vote for".

And it's effectively true of anyone who pulled the lever for the current President. Sorry, but them's the breaks. If you don't like it, don't vote for a guy who supports partial-birth abortion.

[bytor2112]

Yes. The words "vote for".

And it's effectively true of anyone who pulled the lever for the current President. Sorry, but them's the breaks. If you don't like it, don't vote for a guy who supports partial-birth abortion.

Although..our current President...aside from those pesky moral issues, possibly has some principles compatible with the Gospel. he does play golf....poorly, but, their is hope. Golf is after all a Celestial sport....

Edited August 14, 2013 by bytor2112

[LittleWyvern]

Imagine that...you actually don't think Reid is worthy of bashing...pshh.

Nice that you can set aside "certain" moral issues and still find those compatible principles. Some of us can't.... but alas, some of us eat bread with the butter side down.

Sure I do. I find it funny how you assume I'm Democratic/liberal just because I don't think somebody is automatically apostate by voting Democrat.

And it's effectively true of anyone who pulled the lever for the current President. Sorry, but them's the breaks. If you don't like it, don't vote for a guy who supports partial-birth abortion.

Well, gee, I guess we better start asking every member of the Church who they voted for in 2012 and excommunicate/church discipline/take away temple recommend/etc. all those who voted Democratic.

EDIT: Unless, of course, somebody says they're Democratic and never votes for Democrats. Then I guess they're ok.

Edited August 14, 2013 by LittleWyvern

[Anddenex]

3.....2......1.....

[bytor2112]

Sure I do. I find it funny how you assume I'm Democratic/liberal just because I don't think somebody is automatically apostate by voting Democrat.

Well, gee, I guess we better start asking every member of the Church who they voted for in 2012 and excommunicate/church discipline all those who voted Democratic.

15 ¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[bytor2112]

Sure I do. I find it funny how you assume I'm Democratic/liberal just because I don't think somebody is automatically apostate by voting Democrat.

Nor do I...and that is not why i think you are a liberal.