Faith In Everything But......

[jehote]

Hi all im new to the boards, and sorta new'ish to Lds. I was baptised about 2 1/2 years ago. but lost faith in all religion about 7 months ago due to something in my personal life that shall remain private

my question/statement is....

i was watching a show about Miracles on the travel channel . miracle quest. it was a pretty good show about holy sites, healing sites etc. and it started me thinking about things. it seems family and friends, all non-lds'ers believe in hauntings, spirits, possesion etc. but when i would try to talk to them about J.S. and the first vision and the visits after they think im a whack-job. BUT talk to them about ouiji boards etc. and the majority think it is real. ( thats a exageration, but you get the idea)

so why is it So easy to believe a person can be possesed but not that god talks to men?

and nice to meet you all!

J

p/s i say i lost faith, but its more like i dis-owned it. im working on it, hence the post.

J

[Maureen]

People are odd, even myself. When I was around 8 I became interested in English history, specifically English royalty (6 wives of Henry VIII, etc.). I was a pro-English history person; any wars they fought, their enemies were the bad guys (ie France). So when I was about 12 I learned about Joan of Arc and her vision. I was very fascinated by her story. Even though she was French and supposedly the enemy, I still rooted for her and her story and I still do. But JS didn’t bring about that same fascination – possibly because Joan of Arc is so much more removed from my world and JS is slightly closer that I have doubts about his story but am still fascinated by Joan’s. It’s a somewhat paradox.

Welcome to LDStalk jehote!

M. :)

[jehote]

yea, see my mom and sister are catholic. they will totally say they beleive that moses talked to god, noah talked to god, all the bible folks, but then it just cuts off. god said your on your own now. no more guidance.

the more i get into this, the more i am talking myself out of certain things....

thank you for the reply M!

J

[Blessed]

Welcome jehote,

You will fit in nicely around here. You can keep me company. :-) I have lost my faith in my religion as well. I still believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but every thing else is up for grabs right now due to a private matter concerning my church. I have to keep the idea in the forefront of my mind that the church is made up of people who make mistakes. I shouldn't confuse the church and my beliefs, but I do. Alas.

Anyway, I hope you will stick around and post more. Nice to meet you.

[jehote]

hello blessed! nice to meet you! my story is a little different. i have great friends in the church and a bishopric that really wants to help me. i just cant take it yet. i have issues with god. we havnt worked it out just yet...

J

[Dr T]

Welcome to LDS Talk Jehote :)

[Palerider]

Welcome to LDS Talk Jehote :)

DITTO!!!!!!!

[CrimsonKairos]

Welcome, J.

Without getting into specifics, may I ask whether the obstacle between you and God is one of behavior on your part, or belief/non-belief on your part? In other words, is it because you do or don't do something, or because you believe or disbelieve something (like a doctrine)?

No need to answer if you don't want, but I think you'll find we're all friendly and genuinely interested in each other's struggles AND victories. If I/we can help, you better believe we'll try.

[a-train]

You know, Satan adopted a plan back in the old days as to how to lead the children of men astray. It's a simple plan. He gives man interpretations of the words of prophets past that contradict the current prophets so that men will contradict them also.

It mattered not that men believed that Adam and Enoch were prophets when the rising waters surrounded Noah.

It mattered not how much Aaron's sons believed in Noah and Enoch when they were burned at the Tabernacle for having rejected the commandments of God through Moses.

It mattered not that Zedekiah accepted Moses and Noah as prophets when he would not listen to Jeremiah and Lehi as the Babylonians approached.

It mattered not that the Jews accepted Jeremiah and Isaiah when they crucified the Saviour.

It matters not that men believe Paul and Peter were prophets now that they reject the restored Gospel.

And it matters not that men believe in the Restoration through Joseph Smith if they quarrel against our living prophets today.

This will never change. Satan is bound, determined, and lies in wait to deceive. There is only a few he wants you to reject, they are only the modern day servants of God. Search the scriptures and you will see that all the prophets who are so greatly reveared were rejected by their own people for the LORD said it thus: 'A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.' (Matt 13:57)

So Satan goes on through the ages giving men interpretations of the ancient prophets that contradict the present ones, for he knows this one great secret, he knows that the LORD has said to all his prophets throughout all time: 'What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.' (D&C 1:38)

GOD BLESS

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

It was that line of reasoning, a-train, which I used repeatedly on my mission in Kentucky.

People love to embrace dead prophets, but revile living ones. It amazes me everytime I encounter it.

[jehote]

Welcome, J.

Without getting into specifics, may I ask whether the obstacle between you and God is one of behavior on your part, or belief/non-belief on your part? In other words, is it because you do or don't do something, or because you believe or disbelieve something (like a doctrine)?

No need to answer if you don't want, but I think you'll find we're all friendly and genuinely interested in each other's struggles AND victories. If I/we can help, you better believe we'll try.

WOW! nice board! ok, i didnt want to hop on here and unload a bunch of personal stuff, being the new guy and all. granted i did lurk abit and figured you all would be cool, but you never know for sure.....

ok, this may make NO sense to you all. but it does to me. I was told that the thing that hurts our father in heaven is when we stray, and have nothing to do with him etc etc. so that is what i have been doing. my wife is in her mid 30's and last year was hit with cancer. it was bad. surgery, after care etc. it was not a good year for us. so, in a nutshell if god is loving and compassionate wouldnt he have spared her all this? he could have NOT let her get cancer, or NOT GIVEN her cancer. either way it was a sick thing to do to.

now i have been told you wont be given more than you can handle, gods will etc etc. but you know what? i call bull-pucky on that. you dont hurt the ones you love. and you sure dont try to kill them. im still so mad and hurt by all this. i mean i totally was buying the whole LDS life. for 2 years we lived the gospel and teachings. and then oh thanks and btw you get the bonus prize. cancer.

so i said thats it. no more church, no more anything and i just turned it off. and my wife followed me away. i think she feels the same deep down.

i cant really tell you in a posting how it feels. i dont think this will read the right way for you all. the best way i can say it is this. i had a best friend who hurt the one i loved the most so i have nothing to do with him anymore. BUT i miss my friend. you see?

J

[sixpacktr]

Right on the mark, A-train.

I guess it has to do with the fact that we don't see the day-to-day faults of the old prophets. If you read the Bible, these are kind of (not completely, but kind of) glossed over, because it isn't about them, but about their message of Christ as the Savior of the world. However, Pres Hinckley can offend me today by being short with me, or playing baseball (ala Joseph Smith, who some contended couldn't be a prophet because playing ball wasn't "prophet like".), or telling me that I shouldn't gamble, etc., and take away one of my "favorite sins".

That is where the rub comes, and people's faith is tried. They refuse to accept the message once they see the man because they can then claim that he is a "hypocrite".

I hope the Lord will be more forgiving of them...

[rosie321]

Jehote ,

While our circumstances maybe different I can understand the underlying frustration and anger you might feel towards God at this time. I've had difficult experiences and have been there for others in challenging times and seen the pain in their eyes too. Its hard to belief at times there is any sense to all this madness. The pain is real. I have also struggled as you with not wanting to return. Who wants to be around a God who lets such painful things occur?

These are some thoughts and ideas that may help you as they have helped me.

First let me strongly encourage you to read Disappointment With God by Phillip Yancey and Where is God When It Hurts. He is a christian author and puts into words quite well his strugglings with God and pain. Though non-LDS , his ideas fit in nicely with Latterday Saint principles. It was nice to get a christian perspective from someone with nothing to lose. It shows how he reconciled his thoughts on your issues in a way I can't begin to adequately summarazie.

Another thing that has helped me is to look at the Savior. His love and compassion. I think of Him in the Garden suffering and bleeding at every pore. Yet even he, part of the Godhead submitted to the will of God. Because of his suffering we all can be redeemed. You are following in the footsteps of Christ. YOu agreed to follow in HIs footsteps and to take up your cross and come follow him. The way may be difficult and hard but who knows what good may come from it. Any sacrifices or pain gone through as you are being faithful will not go unnoticed.

When I think of some of the medical procedures people have to go through I can't help but shudder. As a parent the hardest thing is to watch your children go through it. I think God probably feels much the same way. He doesn't like to see his children suffer as is indicated in so many other places in scriptures but sin is a poison and has a price. Sometimes that price is paid by the innocent. But all things can work together for the good.

YOu both made the commitment to follow God and agreed to do whatever and to follow. God promised to back you up. Look to the Lord for strength now and understanding. He promises to be there for us. As the oft repeated saying goes something like this " God does not remove our problems but he gives us a way to get through them" Don't be afraid to keep asking even though you might not be feeling or seeing things now. Christ was pained in the Garden and he also witnessed His Father have to turn away while he was on the cross as made evident through his words Father why has thou forsaken me? So you might have those moments where you feel like you've been deserted but God is still there. Have faith in the promises

The cleansing process from sin is a drawn out one to create the person we need to be to enter back into the presence of God. God may be very well working in your lives and throwing you deeper challenges because of your abilities at a given time.

Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Look to the testimonies of people on this board and others you know. Crimson, Strawberry are just two that immediately come to mind from this board who have had to watch their loved ones go through some horrible suffering. The pain for them is real. Yet their strength and witness despite all of that is amazing and are an uplift to all here on this board.

Lastly I must ask what are your options Jehote? If you abandon God and his church what are you going towards? What do you believe? What better options are out there?

From your posts I don't get the idea that you abandon God you're just really upset right now. If thats the case go to Heavenly Father and plead for strength. Do what you know is right. Go to God and recieve your daily bread to face the challenges the new day brings.

My prayers are with your family

<div class='quotemain'>

Welcome, J.

Without getting into specifics, may I ask whether the obstacle between you and God is one of behavior on your part, or belief/non-belief on your part? In other words, is it because you do or don't do something, or because you believe or disbelieve something (like a doctrine)?

No need to answer if you don't want, but I think you'll find we're all friendly and genuinely interested in each other's struggles AND victories. If I/we can help, you better believe we'll try.

WOW! nice board! ok, i didnt want to hop on here and unload a bunch of personal stuff, being the new guy and all. granted i did lurk abit and figured you all would be cool, but you never know for sure.....

ok, this may make NO sense to you all. but it does to me. I was told that the thing that hurts our father in heaven is when we stray, and have nothing to do with him etc etc. so that is what i have been doing. my wife is in her mid 30's and last year was hit with cancer. it was bad. surgery, after care etc. it was not a good year for us. so, in a nutshell if god is loving and compassionate wouldnt he have spared her all this? he could have NOT let her get cancer, or NOT GIVEN her cancer. either way it was a sick thing to do to.

now i have been told you wont be given more than you can handle, gods will etc etc. but you know what? i call bull-pucky on that. you dont hurt the ones you love. and you sure dont try to kill them. im still so mad and hurt by all this. i mean i totally was buying the whole LDS life. for 2 years we lived the gospel and teachings. and then oh thanks and btw you get the bonus prize. cancer.

so i said thats it. no more church, no more anything and i just turned it off. and my wife followed me away. i think she feels the same deep down.

i cant really tell you in a posting how it feels. i dont think this will read the right way for you all. the best way i can say it is this. i had a best friend who hurt the one i loved the most so i have nothing to do with him anymore. BUT i miss my friend. you see?

J

[CrimsonKairos]

Thanks for explaining your situation in more detail, Jehote.

First, let me say that I'm sorry for all the pain and difficulty you and your wife have undergone and perhaps continue to experience as a result of her cancer. The mother of one of my sisters-in-law died from cancer, and one of my mom's best friends died from cancer too, so I know it's an ugly trial that's hard on everyone involved.

I want to offer some of my thoughts to you, not necessarily as a means of comforting or lecturing you. Just informing you of what I've gleaned from my experiences.

i mean i totally was buying the whole LDS life. for 2 years we lived the gospel and teachings. and then oh thanks and btw you get the bonus prize. cancer.

Shame on anyone who told you that being baptized is a guarantee that we won't suffer or have difficulties in life. It's a promise that if we do our best to obey the gospel, we will dwell at God's right hand in the eternities. I think the question lurking beneath the surface of your quote above is:

Why did this happen to me/us?

It's the age-old question. We don't like the fact that in life, bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. It seems unjust. Unfair.

Let me tell you what I learned about fairness and justice. I'll be brief. My father was the Stake Executive Secretary. On his way to an early meeting at 6am one Sunday morning, another driver had a siezure, hit my dad's car, and put my dad in a five-week coma. There were broken bones, severe brain damage, dislocated joints, etc... That was Nov. 2005.

I've helped my mom care for my dad since day one. Neither of us wanted him in a facility with strangers to look after him. It's been hard. To put it lightly. The man who'd never yelled at or touched his family in anger that I can remember since childhood, now acted outrageously due to his brain injury. Not knowing where he was or who my mom and I were, he now yelled at us, bit us, kicked us, hit us, head-butted us, put us in head-locks, punched us, slapped us, etc... It was hell. He's slowly getting better, still doesn't remember my name, but at least now he's through his agitated phase and doesn't assault us anymore. Try feeding a 180 lb. adult who's intent on hurting you badly for no rational reason. Yeah. Real fun.

Alot of people asked the question you no doubt ask in your heart about your wife's cancer:

Why would God allow this to happen to a good person? I mean in my dad's case, he was on his way to a Church meeting when he was injured. It's not like he was going out to a bar or having an affair. I've learned, though, that none of that matters.

We think we are suffering unjustly, because we haven't done anything to "deserve" such severe suffering. If we get right down to it, we don't "deserve" our blessings either. King Benjamin said it best in Mosiah chapter 2:

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

What God has taught me is that when I feel tempted to ask, "Why me?" in regards to a trial I'm undergoing, I might just as well ask, "Why me?" in regards to my blessings. As the scripture above states, we are indebted to God for our lives, our bodies, our ability to act as we wish. So even when we obey God, we're not even close to paying off the debt we owe Him...and He blesses us even more when we obey, which deepens our debt to God.

So what I've learned is that nothing I undergo in this life is "unjust." In other words, even if God allows me or my loved ones to get sick, or have traumatic brain injuries while in the act of fulfilling Church callings, He's not being cruel or unfair. First, because He isn't causing the bad things to happen in every instance. Second, because we owe him, He doesn't owe us.

Most importantly, I believe that I am not above suffering even when I haven't done anything "wrong," because Christ himself, the Wholly Begotten Son of God (spiritually and physically God's son), even the Savior who was perfect and deserved only blessings and praise...even Christ suffered unjustly at the hands of wicked men.

As Christ hung on the cross, God could have saved him. But He didn't. Yet we know God loves Jesus. So it is with us. God may indeed be able to prevent all suffering. But when He doesn't, it's not a sign that He hates us or doesn't care about us. I've come to believe this firmly, in many ways because of the "unjust" suffering my dad, mom and I have been going through with my dad's brain injury.

I've felt God's love more during my trial, than I did when everything seemed "okay." I think the lesson I've learned from Christ's time in Gethsemane and on Calvary, is when we must drink from the bitter cup we can either become better or bitter.

When we hurt in life, when things go wrong, when dreams are shattered and innocence is destroyed, we think we are punishing God by shutting Him out. This is a waste of our time, because God doesn't cause all suffering and hence is not to be punished, and also because by shutting Him out we punish ourselves, not Him.

the best way i can say it is this. i had a best friend who hurt the one i loved the most so i have nothing to do with him anymore. BUT i miss my friend. you see?

I want to make sure I understand what you feel. Are you saying that because God didn't prevent your wife from having cancer, He might as well have caused her to have it? Are you feeling betrayed, that God broke a promise He made to you and your wife?

In closing, please know, Jehote, that I'm not saying, "Snap out of it, s-u-c-k it up, take it on the chin," or anything equally insensitive. Deep down, I believe you know that God loves us immensely as demonstrated by His allowing His only perfect Son to be crucified in the ultimate injustice ever to occur. I believe you know that God can be the best source of comfort and strength right now.

But I also believe you and your wife feel hurt, let down, abandoned, etc... I won't try to remove those feelings, and I won't tell you that's not what happened and you need to look at things differently. All I will say is that I know God loves us, and I pray you and your wife receive greater and greater strength and peace as you lay your burden on God's lap and seek to let Him back into your lives.

[shanstress70]

Hi Jehote,

I'm no longer LDS, although I am 'LDS-friendly'... just wanted to get that out of the way first off.

I am still a Christian and struggle SO MUCH with what you are talking about. I don't have any words of advice for you... just wanted to say I'm sorry for what you and your wife are going through. I hope her cancer is treatable and that she gets through this.

I don't understand why our all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God lets things like this happen either. Not sure I ever will. This one point almost destroyed my faith entirely (not LDS faith, as that is a different story), but I have just decided to accept the fact that I don't understand everything, and perhaps never will. I just have to trust that God knows what He's doing. I hope that if something really bad happens in my life, I will still be able to do that, but I guess no one knows until they are in that situation. I will include you guys in my prayers.

CK, I know you've spoken about your father as well in the past here. I also want to let you know that I'm sorry your family has to go through this as well. You sound like very caring people who went the honorable, albeit WAY more difficult route. That is to be applauded. Peace be with you and yours.

[CrimsonKairos]

Thanks Shan. :)

[Dr T]

The problem of evil or "the problem of pain" as C.S. Lewis wrote about it, is a difficult issue. One of the hardest I've come across in my belief system. It is not easily dismissed. I read a really really good philosophical argument about it. I printed it out and let my friend read it to see what he thought about its implications. It is gone now and I can't find it anywhere. None of the books that I read about it "Why bad things happen to good people" and "The Problem of Pain" didn't do it for me. I thought they side stepped the issue. So far, I've come to the conclusion that an all loving God must have a greater purpose, for the evil he allows. I know that is a short answer are not argued here, but just wanted to let you know my opinion on this complex issue.

[TimA.]

Jehote,

I have struggled with these same questions that you have. I wont talk about my story because I think CrimsonKairos' words express my understanding and far more better than I could ever say it. I would like to recomend a couple of books though that I found helpful.

"The Peacegiver" by James L. Ferrell

and

"Spiritual Lightening" by M. Catherine Thomas

May God bless you and your family.

Tim

[jehote]

thanks to all for posting! i am on the site "lurking" and reading and just hanging out in general. what am i going to do? i dont know. how do i feel about all this? right now? today this minute? who knows....its a hard thing to nail down. but thank you all.

J

[Guest Username-Removed]

Hi all im new to the boards, and sorta new'ish to Lds. I was baptised about 2 1/2 years ago. but lost faith in all religion about 7 months ago due to something in my personal life that shall remain private

my question/statement is....

i was watching a show about Miracles on the travel channel . miracle quest. it was a pretty good show about holy sites, healing sites etc. and it started me thinking about things. it seems family and friends, all non-lds'ers believe in hauntings, spirits, possesion etc. but when i would try to talk to them about J.S. and the first vision and the visits after they think im a whack-job. BUT talk to them about ouiji boards etc. and the majority think it is real. ( thats a exageration, but you get the idea)

so why is it So easy to believe a person can be possesed but not that god talks to men?

and nice to meet you all!

J

p/s i say i lost faith, but its more like i dis-owned it. im working on it, hence the post.

J

Jehote,

I was very inactive for many years myself. It took me years to realize that I messed up pretty bad. For me, a set of events left me feeling very lonely, and the only people I felt I could go to were my parents who were non-members - it was a disaster! The mistake I made was that I felt I needed someone to get me through the really rough times, in fact, I had no idea just how powerful the hosts of heavan were. There are incredibly holy, positive forces that most members simply only lightly take advantage of, not knowing where thier source of inspiration is actually coming from. I now realize that the hosts of heavan are indeed a very strong source of power, faith and strength. Since I've realized this, my faith has increased, and I am no longer alone! Who can I thank for this incredible source of strength??? Jesus Christ, who organized it after his death!

You should know how happy I am now that I am fully active again. I am no longer in the dark!!!!

[a-train]

Perhaps I missed it, but did anyone already say that the reason we go through pain and suffering throughout mortality is because this life is a probationary state? We are here to see if we will do all things whatsoever the Lord our God will command us. (Abr. 3:25)

Hazards of all sorts of various types will be placed in our path, many so great that it would seem to destroy the path itself. We are here to let our hearts be comforted; for all flesh is in the LORD's hands, therefore we must be still and know that He is God. (D&C 101:16)

Why are babies born diseased?

Born into abuse?

Born into the Jewish families of Europe during the Holocaust?

Orphaned?

Allowed to be tortured and killed?

Is this all a test for the child?

A trial for a mind yet uncapable of understanding the principles of the Gospel and not yet having attained the age of accountability?

Perhaps yes. But, we who stand by looking on and they who perpetrate against them are herein tested also.

These young children who endure such a terrible short life and are taken back to God may indeed be our spiritual superiors.

And what of the aged who endure terrible disease? What of they who take on mental and physical disease that transform them into someone else? They are also a test for us. Are the works of God manifested in us as they were in the man blind from his birth in John 9:1-7?

Hopefully, we can one day look up into the face of God and ask: 'Lord, when saw we thee sick and came unto thee?' and He will answer 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.' (Matt 25:40)

Hopefully, we will be not only priests unto God as were the Levites, but Good Samaritans also. (Luke 10:25-37)

We are here to learn good and evil and that means there will be plenty of evil, but hold strong to the rod of the LORD and you will pass through the mists of darkness and partake of the fruit of the tree of eternal life which is the love of God.

GOD BLESS

-a-train

[jehote]

Why are babies born diseased?

Born into abuse?

Born into the Jewish families of Europe during the Holocaust?

Orphaned?

Allowed to be tortured and killed?

Is this all a test for the child?

-a-train

and there is the point. why? if god is so loving and caring and only wants his children to be happy, why are crack-babies born? why are children abused? etc. etc. etc etc. loving caring father? looks doubtful ALOT of the time....

J

[Dr T]

That line of reasoning seems too limiting. If things were only "good" or "right" and there was no evil in the world. A world where people can only make the right choice, then that is not freedom.

[Guest Username-Removed]

I think you simply make the best of what you are given. In a way, you have to be a McGyvor of sorts! In the movie "6 days and 7 nights", after a plane crash on a deserted island, the character played by Anne Heche says to the character played by Harrison Ford, "arent you one of those guys?", "you know, those guys with skills?", "they send you to the wilderness with a pocket knife and a "Q" tip and they build you a shopping mall"!!!! Things are not perfect, and in the end we are not judged by what we have, but what we have done with what we have. In the end, our only competition is ourselves.

[CrimsonKairos]

The amount of joy we can feel and appreciate is dictated by the amount of suffering we experience.

Can't appreciate the sweet without tasting the bitter.

In that regard, my family's trial with my dad's brain injury has been a blessing. I can testify that life is more enjoyable, pleasures more intense, and my gratitude greater for having gone through what we've endured thus far.

Do I seek out pain? Nope. I know it'll come. It's inevitable. But I don't curse it when it comes. I know it will hone and refine my spiritual sensitivity and increase my ability to enjoy life.

So in that way, a God who wants His children to have a fulness of joy will necessarily let them experience great suffering that they might truly distinguish between bitter and sweet.

I often reflect on the supremely meaningful statement Jesus uttered after his trial, crucifixion, resurrection and appearance to the Nephites.

"And they arose from the earth, and he said unto them: Blessed are ye because of your faith. And now behold, my joy is full." (3 Ne. 17:20)

In and out of context, I believe that phrase "my joy is full" could not have been uttered before Jesus had suffered through the atonement. Because his suffering was infinite and eternal, his joy likewise is infinite and eternal...his joy is full.