FBI tracking hate crimes against Mormons and others

[Backroads]

FBI will track hate crimes

[beefche]

I have never understood these "hate" laws. If Person A beats the crap out of Person B, then why is the punishment any different for someone who did it because Person B is gay, Mormon, black, or whatever. If Person A beat the stuffing out of Person B because Person A just wanted to beat the crap out of him why should his punishment be less because he didn't specify his reason (and that reason is in a special class?)????

[Dravin]

I have never understood these "hate" laws. If Person A beats the crap out of Person B, then why is the punishment any different for someone who did it because Person B is gay, Mormon, black, or whatever. If Person A beat the stuffing out of Person B because Person A just wanted to beat the crap out of him why should his punishment be less because he didn't specify his reason (and that reason is in a special class?)????

To my understanding the rational is that a hate crime damages more than the immediate victim but damages a community. For instance if the local chapter of the KKK gets together and lynches a black man in front of the local black baptist church they aren't just committing a brutal murder but are trying to terrorize a community. This is admittedly a more extreme example. One can of course debate the rational, how well the legal situation matches the rational, and the ability to accurately apply the laws; particularly as they might apply to marginal cases.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Dravin

[NeuroTypical]

In other words, if you beat up a kid because he wears glasses, that's less bad than if you beat up a kid because he's Mormon.

[Dravin]

In other words, if you beat up a kid because he wears glasses, that's less bad than if you beat up a kid because he's Mormon.

Just to make things explicitly clear: I was sharing the rational. Just like if someone asked about French Enlightenment political theory, or Aztec human sacrifice or other topic of choice I knew something about, I'd share the rational. This does not mean I agree with the rational or that I am interested in defending the rational beyond the accuracy of my representation.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Dravin

[NeuroTypical]

Oh, I wasn't reacting to any poster, just sharing my thoughts about hate crimes, and they're inherent goofiness.

(And also trying to find a way to make light of my embarassing backstory, as a kid who was beat up both for having glasses, and for being mormon, on separate occasions )

[annewandering]

If you stretch it very slightly a hate crime is comparable to terrorism. It picks random victims to terrorize a specific group. The punishment is different because it is for what is basically two crimes. One the obvious crime, murder, violence, whatever, and the second is for the act of terrorizing a specific group of people.

I think it is easier to see and understand if it is viewed as two crimes instead of one.

[NeuroTypical]

But I, as a kid with glasses, belonged to a specific group of people - the group of 'funny lookin' kids who looked like they wouldn't fight back'. Yes indeed, the guy who beat me up absolutely had a pattern of targeting this group. Why was there only one crime committed against me then?

Edited August 15, 2013 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Roseslipper]

Hate of any kind is so evil!!!! I dont even like to use that word!!!!

[annewandering]

But I, as a kid with glasses, belonged to a specific group of people - the group of 'funny lookin' kids who looked like they wouldn't fight back'. Yes indeed, the guy who beat me up absolutely had a pattern of targeting this group. Why was there only one crime committed against me then?

It seems to me that you are. Your group is actually being targeted in the stop bullying campaigns going on in many schools as well.

To be honest though it is not the glasses. I wore glasses and no one bullied me. It is something else. Maybe nerdiness? You are probably right about the 'who looked like they wouldnt fight back'. I was never nice enough to belong to that group.

[Guest kethy]

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Stories and Features

- Stopping the MLK Parade Bomber

- Cross Burnings in the 21st Century

- L.A. Hate Crimes Task Force

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Edited September 12, 2013 by kethy

[Quin]

Think of them like this:

In domestic violence divorces restraining orders are often placed on family PETS.

Why?

Because nailing the goldfish to the front door, or mutilating the dog (et cetera) is at best a misdemeanor. Maybe a fine. But slap a restraining order on the family pet and if AbusiveSchmuck tries to terrorize the family by killing the family pet... It becomes a whopping big deal & is treated as the attack on the family that it is..

...

Just like a serial killer targeting blonde 20 something's will mean a rash of brown hair dye sales (as EVERY blonde regardless of age starts dying their hair). EVERY blonde will feel targeted, threatened, afraid. Every parent of a blonde. Every sibling, lover, friend.

Hate crimes are like that.

Because in targeting a group...

- Thousands/millions in that group are threatened.

- Their loved ones are terrified

- The impressionable choose sides (mob rules... Like those who might not normally bully, beat, or kill a person start seeing it as "okay" to. On either side.)

- Copycats spring up

- Suicide rates climb

- School attendance & performance drop

- Rashes of unrelated crimes start springing up (the more lawlessness, the more lawlessness)

- Rashes of ancillary crimes step up (arguments that go to blows, innocents mistaken for threats get attacked)

- 911 dispatch gets overloaded, emergency response times increase, millions in overtime has to be paid out, budgets are strapped (trickles down into job loss, equipment isn't funded, taxes raised, etc,)

And a whole lot more.

It's a community disaster when hate crimes are committed.

So the law reflects that.

Q

[NeuroTypical]

So again, let me ask Quin now, how come "goofy looking kids with glasses who look like they won't fight back" aren't protected? I was a member of that group.

- There are millions of us.

- My mom was worried sick.

- There were toadies at school who were nice enough by themselves, but easily pulled into a group of people who would do horrible things.

- Copycats sprang up.

- I considered and almost attempted suicide in my teen years because of this.

- My report cards were full of comments like "[LM] is such a bright boy, but he won't apply himself/is so often not here"

- etc.

So again I ask everyone - how come beatin' up the goofy kid with glasses involves only one lesser wrong, whereas beatin' up the gay or Mormon kid is a greater wrong deserving of special treatment under the law?

And again, the only answer that makes sense to me, is "Because hate crime legilsation is only a tool of social engineering used by people in power to forward their cultural agenda."

Edited September 12, 2013 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Just_A_Guy]

Well, technically, the law does protect against schoolyard violence. Assault is assault, and battery is battery. It's just that school officials, for a variety of reasons, generally choose not to get the law involved; and the victims (or their families) either don't realize it's an option or don't think it's serious enough to merit a formal charge in juvenile court.

[NeuroTypical]

Yes, there are laws on the books. But this thread is about hate crime legislation - the extra layer of laws that make crimes against certain groups more serious than the exact same crime against a non-protected group.

[Just_A_Guy]

Oh, that?

Why, we're punishing actions that come from speech we don't like, of course.

[Bini]

Dravin and Annewandering nailed it.

A hate crime targets more than just the individual that is victimised - it targets a whole community. So it is fitting that such an act of violence, even terrorism, is addressed and handled perhaps differently.

[Bini]

I don't think anyone takes bullying lightly. I'm pretty sure the law doesn't take it lightly either. I can't think of any specific case but over the years I recall the law stepping in and putting kids through court that have bullied other kids and teens to death, literally.

[Backroads]

I don't think anyone takes bullying lightly. I'm pretty sure the law doesn't take it lightly either. I can't think of any specific case but over the years I recall the law stepping in and putting kids through court that have bullied other kids and teens to death, literally.

Probably going off-topic here, but in many cases I don't think those bullies deserved it. The courts punished kids that weren't even involved.

[NeuroTypical]

A hate crime targets more than just the individual that is victimised - it targets a whole community. So it is fitting that such an act of violence, even terrorism, is addressed and handled perhaps differently.

Let me be very clear here Bini. Because I was a goofy kid with glasses, I was thrown up against a locker, a knife was held to my throat, and I was told they would cut me unless I carried out the demeaning and embarassing orders they gave me.

Are you honestly saying that if those things had happened to me because I was gay or mormon, the act of violence should be addressed and handled differently?

[Bini]

Let me be very clear here Bini. Because I was a goofy kid with glasses, I was thrown up against a locker, a knife was held to my throat, and I was told they would cut me unless I carried out the demeaning and embarassing orders they gave me.

Are you honestly saying that if those things had happened to me because I was gay or mormon, the act of violence should be addressed and handled differently?

Let me try to clear up what I'm saying.

Yes, there are plenty of nerdy kiddos out there that get picked upon and some bullied so severely that they contemplate or even try taking their own lives. I don't think it's the law enforcement's problem that there isn't a "nerdy kid" community that is at least acknowledge on the same scale as the "GLBT" community or "Mormon" community. So for someone that hates an entire community and wishes harm on everyone therein but only gets their hands on one member - yeh - I think it should be addressed and handled in a serious manner. And I don't think it shouldn't be because the "nerdy kid" group isn't as recognised as far as the law is concerned. Life just isn't fair.

[Guest]

I'm with LM. It's hogwash. A crime is a crime. If you want to stop the hate, you don't make one crime a lesser crime than the other. You go get the President and Jay-Z to speak out about it. Okay, I'm mentioning the President and Jay-Z to be funny. But I really mean that. Go get the spokes people to fight against it just like the Campaign Against Bullies that our BJJ school is doing. Laws don't have to be made to make them more special in the eyes of the law. Law should not be a respecter of persons and all that because as Putin says - we are all created equal.

[Quin]

So again, let me ask Quin now, how come "goofy looking kids with glasses who look like they won't fight back" aren't protected? I was a member of that group.

- There are millions of us.

- My mom was worried sick.

- There were toadies at school who were nice enough by themselves, but easily pulled into a group of people who would do horrible things.

- Copycats sprang up.

- I considered and almost attempted suicide in my teen years because of this.

- My report cards were full of comments like "[LM] is such a bright boy, but he won't apply himself/is so often not here"

- etc.

So again I ask everyone - how come beatin' up the goofy kid with glasses involves only one lesser wrong, whereas beatin' up the gay or Mormon kid is a greater wrong deserving of special treatment under the law?

And again, the only answer that makes sense to me, is "Because hate crime legilsation is only a tool of social engineering used by people in power to forward their cultural agenda."

I'm guessing you don't have kids in school.

Anti-bullying legislation & policies have turned the school system upside down.

Kids are being ARRESTED, even in elementary school, for bullying.

Most states & districts have a no tolerance policy that's actually gone overboard. (As no tolerance = no discretion). Not that I'm defending or advocating taking away the policies... The pendulum has simply swung a little hard.

So. To the point:

- There is no difference

- Bullying is treated like, and often charged as, a hate crime.

Q

[Dravin]

- Bullying is treated like, and often charged as, a hate crime.

Can I get some citations?

[Quin]

Can I get some citations?

Not from me!

Bwaaahahahaha. Lol. Sorry.

I just quit after 5 years of teaching. And I absolutely refuse to go dig through all my stuff. A simple google search will pop up some of the more publicized cases, as well as state by state policy, schools that aren't adhering to their policies, lawsuits against schools for not adhering as well as "over"-adhering (students who fight back are expelled as fast as the ones who started it... There is no self defense in a zero tolerance policy), teacher's unions, school boards, outraged public letters... Heck. Any parenting forum.

Boys will be boys has morphed into Assault, hate crimes, and juvie.

My personal opinion is that there's an IQ test for school boards and school administrators and one cannot score double digits and be allowed in.

Anti-bullying I'm all for.

But self defense getting rolled up into it, as well as MARKER PENS (washable) drawn on a desk equalling an arrest, is a ridiculous to me as the kindergartner being charged with sexual harassment for a playground kiss. Of COURSE the other kid thought it was yucky! There are boy-cooties (or girl cooties) on those thar lips.

<grin> So anyone not immersed in school policy is welcome to go hit up google or a parenting forum to hear all about it... But I shall sit here in the sunshine and enjoy my first September NOT back-to-school for some time. Well. My kids in school. But that hardly counts.

Oh. Do be sure to look into how IEPs & 504s also play in. That gets a bit heartbreaking. But it's part and parcel.

Q