A better way to tithe?

[Mikedavis]

I was reading through some of the posts on LDS.net and couldn't help but notice that some of the members are going through hard times. For example, one lady said "The last ten years, for me, has been especially difficult. I had a daughter die in a car accident, leaving behind her two month old son that I've had to help raise. My marriage of over 30 years is one of my most heart breaking trials. Poor health is taking a toll on me. Worry over finances keeps me sleepless at nights". Why is our church not doing more to help people like this?

I personally know of several people in our ward who are going through hard times, yet our church offers little or no support. For example, my wife and I, together with two other church members recently paid a utility bill for a lady in our ward who had her power cut because she could not afford to pay the bill and could not get help from the church. Is this right?

My question is this. Rather than pay tithing to the church, would it not be better to tithe to charity's who help the needy? I know fast offering is "supposed" to help such people but from what I have seen this is not always the case.

Ask yourself this simple question. How many people do you personally know (perhaps even faithful members of your own ward) who could benefit from a helping hand?

There was a time when our church needed our tithes but that time has long since passed. Today our church is more than self reliant. Is it not time we considered helping those who are less so? Perhaps our church leaders need to start saying "how can we help?" Rather than "let's go shopping!"

[Mikedavis]

Sorry. I should have posted this in the general forum.

[Dravin]

There was a time when our church needed our tithes but that time has long since passed.

Two thoughts come to mind:

1) While tithing supports the Church I do not tithe to support the Church.

2) To the claim that the Church does not need tithing funds for operation... citation needed.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Dravin

[bytebear]

The entire welfare program of the church is to help members (and non-members) who need temporary assistance. From the bishop's storehouse to financial assistance to employment services. The fact if one isn't getting help from the church, it's not because the church isn't there to help.

Not sure what your beef is with the "let's go shopping" dig other than perhaps the recent City Creek mall, which by the way was probably the best financial investment they could have made to the area of Salt Lake. But tithes weren't used to fund it, so not sure if you are confused on how the church funds projects.

Clearly you don't understand how the church uses the money it has. The church has various funds, and tithing mostly goes to running and maintaining thousands of church buildings, universities, etc.

Then there are service oriented programs like the Perpetual Education Fund, or the welfare farms and Helping Hands. The church doesn't invest in outside companies or stocks. It mostly invests in farms and ranches, so they can use the products for profit (to expand the system) but also to convert it straight to welfare, and give the food away. The program is vast... enormous. They are the largest private land owner in Florida for example.

And you know what? No one is getting rich from all these programs. So, I suppose you could donate to other charities, if you think they are doing better with the money, but I think the LDS programs are probably the best in the world, and the least corrupt.

Edited August 31, 2013 by bytebear

[Dark_Jedi]

The entire welfare program of the church is to help members (and non-members) who need temporary assistance. From the bishop's storehouse to financial assistance to employment services. The fact if one isn't getting help from the church, it's not because the church isn't there to help.

Not necessarily. There is a limit to how much and how long some bishops will offer assistance. I have seen that happen in my own ward.

In answer to the question at hand, I think tithing is as much a spiritual principle as it is physical. I'm not going to elaborate because tithes and offering seem to have many myths and teachings of men (rather than doctrine) associated with them. I am not one to teach as doctrine something that is not.

[Just_A_Guy]

I personally know of several people in our ward who are going through hard times, yet our church offers little or no support. For example, my wife and I, together with two other church members recently paid a utility bill for a lady in our ward who had her power cut because she could not afford to pay the bill and could not get help from the church. Is this right?

With all due respect, are you sure you know what factors went into the bishop's decision? For example, I've seen/heard of various circumstances where, at some point, further cash assistance would have just exacerbated the situation. Or, maybe the ward fast offering fund was just out of cash. It would be tragic indeed if your own qualms about contributing to your ward's fast offering fund placed the bishop in a situation where he had to deny this good sister the help she needed.

My own experience, for what it's worth, is the Church does plenty. Groceries, rent assistance, child care, employment assistance and sometimes training, flat-out cash assistance . . . goodness, I'm handling a divorce right now where opposing counsel's fee is being paid by his client's ward fast offering fund. (I didn't even know that was possible, but there you go.)

On a macro scale, the Church runs three universities with ridiculously low tuition rates, provides scholarships to would-be students in third world countries, digs wells and contributes to microloan projects the world over, and has made significant economic investments through commercial ventures of varying scales (yes, including City Creek. If the tab had been picked up by Salt Lake County or the federal government, we'd be calling it stimulus).

My question is this. Rather than pay tithing to the church, would it not be better to tithe to charity's who help the needy?

My previous comments aside, I really don't get all that worked up if someone picks another charity rather than their ward fast offering fund. But to respond to your question vis a vis tithing: I believe that the answer is "no". Tithing is given to the Lord. Those running various charities are engaged in a very good work. Maybe even divinely inspired, in some cases. But they aren't the Lord's duly appointed representatives. Abraham had no problem assisting random passing nomads in their time of need--but he didn't call it "tithing". That, he paid directly to Melchizedek--who was a prince and presumably didn't need the money.

[NeuroTypical]

Why is our church not doing more to help people like this?

I personally know of several people in our ward who are going through hard times, yet our church offers little or no support.

I used to be executive seceretary for my ward, back when they had welfare meeting. On several occasions, they'd discuss temporal needs of the members, and the bishop would let the leadership know about church financial aid had needed to stop for a certain person or family. Sometimes a reason came with the information. Often it was along the lines of "they are unwilling to cut back their discretionary expenses to cover their bills" or "they declined invitations to go work at the cannery". In more than one of these cases, the person or family would then go away mad and spread the word about how the church was refusing to help.

The point being, exactly how do you "know" what support the church offers or doesn't offer these people?

My question is this. Rather than pay tithing to the church, would it not be better to tithe to charity's who help the needy?

Mike, go do whatever you want with your money. Nobody is forcing you to tithe. When you seek to counsel the brethren in their duties, from a position of ignorance, I believe you err.

Ask yourself this simple question. How many people do you personally know (perhaps even faithful members of your own ward) who could benefit from a helping hand?

The church's counsel on self-reliance extends past it's own books, Mike. Church financial aid is usually supposed to be short-term, temporary help, while the member is actively pursuing ways to end dependence.

Is it not time we considered helping those who are less so? Perhaps our church leaders need to start saying "how can we help?" Rather than "let's go shopping!"

Do you know what a false dichotomy looks like? Here are some examples:

So, do you want to vote for [candidate a], or do you want a global financial meltdown?

Do you want to get beaten up, or do you want to give me your wallet?

We're going to buy clothes. Do you want a red kilt or a black kilt?

Do you want to help the poor, or do you want to invest in downtown SLC?

[Lakumi]

My previous comments aside, I really don't get all that worked up if someone picks another charity rather than their ward fast offering fund. But to respond to your question vis a vis tithing: I believe that the answer is "no". Tithing is given to the Lord. Those running various charities are engaged in a very good work. Maybe even divinely inspired, in some cases. But they aren't the Lord's duly appointed representatives. Abraham had no problem assisting random passing nomads in their time of need--but he didn't call it "tithing". That, he paid directly to Melchizedek--who was a prince and presumably didn't need the money.

no tithing is given to humans, God doesn't need money

that was something I never saw eye to eye with, though I've not brought it up to the missionaries.

Not that they ask for tithing but what they say happens and where it goes.

I suppose I could have bigger qualms but that's one of them

[Backroads]

My cousin complained when the church wouldn't pay her cable bill, gym membership, and Netflix account. The bishop just wanted to know why she wasn't cancelling those in order to put food on the table.

Not saying that is everyone, but there are reasons.

Another thing... charities are rather fickle. Giving to my ward fast offering is so direct. Giving money to a charity... most of the time I haven't the slightest clue where that goes.

Bless you for paying your neighbor's utility bill. Frankly, I think that's a kinder action than the church welfare.

[TalkativeIntrovert]

I have to trust that the church and the Bishop do the right thing with tithing and fast offerings. They know more than I do. If I (and others) don't trust that, then the system falls into chaos.

I was "caught" once in a similar pattern of thought - why don't we help more needy members, so I took it upon myself to help a family where dad had lost his job and they were having trouble with bills. I took around groceries and meals for a week, including treats for the children and some cash for extras. Rather than sell my son's pristine bike (that he had outgrown), I gave it to them for their son. We had them over to our house for dinner and offered any assistance we could.

At church the following week I was very surprised to find the mum showing off the new clothes she had bought that week. My faith in humanity was shattered.

After that, I started donating my time to Barnados, helping at-risk families in whatever way was needed, whether emotional (a shoulder to cry on), physical (look after children while they could get some cleaning done or bilk cooking for a week, etc) and financial (help sort out budgets, help with frugal living, advocate for them with companies they owed money to, etc). If the family refused to give up pay tv, Christmas hampers, magazine subscriptions, etc, they were advised that we could not help them. One lady we had to stop helping as she refused to give up her weekly manicure and hairdresser appointment. However it was hugely satisfying getting families on track where they accepted the advice and were on their way to independence.

So now, I never presume to know more than those in authority!

[bytebear]

Not necessarily. There is a limit to how much and how long some bishops will offer assistance. I have seen that happen in my own ward.

Which is why I said it is for people who need temporary assistance. It is not meant to replace self sufficiency.

[Backroads]

My husband, last year, sat in on the council where they had to end assistance to a family because the husband was turning down job offer after job offer. Now, we all get wanting the "dream job" but these were good jobs and the ward finally decided he needed to take care of his family.

Let's not get caught up in let's-help-everyone that we confuse real charity with hand-outs.

[Quin]

A lot of this comes down to individuals, as well.

Take my home teacher (please). I was in a car accident and severely injured my back, although luckily, in a way that left me ambulatory. (Yay!). But I couldn't twist, or bend, or lift ANYTHING (including just me... I was C3PO as far as movement went).

So, bloke asks me if there's anything I need... And I say ACTUALLY, I've only been able to clean my house from waist up for about 4 months, now. Forget about the lawn. I could really use a hand doing a bit of a blitzkrieg on things that require bending sometime.

((I had been washing floors by scooting damp towels around with my feet. It wasn't a pit, but I couldn't do any better.))

HIS response was "Yeah, right. We all want a maid."

Okay, dude. Whatever. I've been doing this on my own for months, I can just keep doing it on my own.

I don't ask for help easily.

But I'm also not a bitter person.

I KNEW if I asked anyone else, there'd probably be a flood of offers.

But I asked the wrong person.

And 6 months later I could bend again.

That isn't the church.

It's not even churchy people.

That's me + the wrong person.

Pride + indifference = nada.

Q

[Leah]

Not necessarily. There is a limit to how much and how long some bishops will offer assistance. I have seen that happen in my own ward.

In answer to the question at hand, I think tithing is as much a spiritual principle as it is physical. I'm not going to elaborate because tithes and offering seem to have many myths and teachings of men (rather than doctrine) associated with them. I am not one to teach as doctrine something that is not.

Byte bear did specifically cite temporary assistance in his post.

[Leah]

I was reading through some of the posts on LDS.net and couldn't help but notice that some of the members are going through hard times. For example, one lady said "The last ten years, for me, has been especially difficult. I had a daughter die in a car accident, leaving behind her two month old son that I've had to help raise. My marriage of over 30 years is one of my most heart breaking trials. Poor health is taking a toll on me. Worry over finances keeps me sleepless at nights". Why is our church not doing more to help people like this?

I personally know of several people in our ward who are going through hard times, yet our church offers little or no support. For example, my wife and I, together with two other church members recently paid a utility bill for a lady in our ward who had her power cut because she could not afford to pay the bill and could not get help from the church. Is this right?

My question is this. Rather than pay tithing to the church, would it not be better to tithe to charity's who help the needy? I know fast offering is "supposed" to help such people but from what I have seen this is not always the case.

Ask yourself this simple question. How many people do you personally know (perhaps even faithful members of your own ward) who could benefit from a helping hand?

There was a time when our church needed our tithes but that time has long since passed. Today our church is more than self reliant. Is it not time we considered helping those who are less so? Perhaps our church leaders need to start saying "how can we help?" Rather than "let's go shopping!"

Please do direct us to the source of your quote from church leaders - "Let's go shopping!". Which church leader was this and on what occasion was it said?

I would also be curious to hear your explanation of what your credentials are, that make you more expert in the organization of the church than our church leaders.....or even Heavenly Father himself.

[Mikedavis]

Please do direct us to the source of your quote from church leaders - "Let's go shopping!". Which church leader was this and on what occasion was it said?

It was said by Thomas S. Monson, as he cut the ribbon to the new 8 billion dollar shopping mall in downtown SLC.

Video below or you can read full artical on Bloomberg Bussiness Week.

[pam]

So not cool to post a response in a comment you are quoting. It makes it appear as if Leah mentioned 8 billion dollar shopping mall.

[Leah]

Video below or you can read full artical on Bloomberg Bussiness Week.

And the answer to the second question I asked? I really am curious to hear the credentials that make you better able to ascertain how to run the church than either the general authorities or Heavenly Father himself. Why is it that you did not answer that question?

And another question....how is it that you are unable to distinguish the differences between tithing and a completely seperate business venture? Are you also unable to grasp the economics of providing people with jobs and boosting the economy?

And please share your citations and sources on your assertions that the church doesn't help people.

[pam]

And so not cool to take a quote at the opening of the mall and make it appear that the church cares more about a mall than helping others. Really really not cool.

[Leah]

So not cool to post a response in a comment you are quoting. It makes it appear as if Leah mentioned 8 billion dollar shopping mall.

Well, you know Pam, when the truth doesn't work, some feel it necessary to resort to deception.

[Mikedavis]

And the answer to the second question I asked? I really am curious to hear the credentials that make you better able to ascertain how to run the church than either the general authorities or Heavenly Father himself. Why is it that you did not answer that question?

And another question....how is it that you are unable to distinguish the differences between tithing and a completely seperate business venture? Are you also unable to grasp the economics of providing people with jobs and boosting the economy?

And please share your citations and sources on your assertions that the church doesn't help people.

Oh boy this is getting out of hand. All the same I will try and answer your questions. First I never said or implied I was an expert on church policy or anything else for that matter. I simply asked some questions. 2nd. Yes I think I can grasp the difference between "tithing and a church bussiness ventures". The question I would ask in return (as did Bussiness Week) is where did the money to set up such company's come from in the first place?

Pam - like you I think this video is "not cool" The only reason I posted the link because I was asked to provide the origins of the "let's go shopping" quote that is circulating all over the Internet.

Anyway, all this is off topic. My original question was "is there a better way to tithe?" Although, on reflection perhaps a better question would have been, how can we help the less fortunate members of our church/wards who are slipping through the cracks?

PS Do you and Leah ever sleep? I thought I was an insomniac, but you girls leave me standing!

[pam]

Might I recommend sitting down then? :)

[Dravin]

Pam - like you I think this video is "not cool" The only reason I posted the link because I was asked to provide the origins of the "let's go shopping" quote that is circulating all over the Internet.

So, do you think it's cool to insert text in a quote box attributed to another poster without differentiation?

P.S. I'm still waiting on a citation that tithing funds aren't needed to operate the Church.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Dravin

[Just_A_Guy]

FWIW, it's funny how the cost of City Creek keeps growing and growing. IIRC, the Church's public statements say the cost was about $1-$1.5 billion, and that included the market value of the underlying land (which the Church had owned for years, in some cases decades, before the project started). The world's tallest building and the ocean liner Queen Mary 2 each cost roughly similar amounts. Our critics, by contrast, seem to be arriving at a consensus that the cost was "really" $3 billion.

But eight billion dollars? Yee, haw!!!!!

[Backroads]

And I still haven't been down there!