A question about doing

[McLainDow]

I hear a lot in church meetings about doing.You know, the checklist that every good church member mentally checks. My question is: Is doing enough? Is doing what we are asked to do by The Lord through his chosen leaders enough for us to gain salvation or, is there more to it? Anything thoughts and or feelings would be appreciated.

[Just_A_Guy]

Not quite sure where you're going with this. It's all meaningless, of course, if there isn't a true conversion to Christ underlying it all.

It's not the deeds in and of themselves; it's what the deeds are helping you to become.

[skippy740]

2 Nephi 25:23

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

What's interesting, is that in printed scriptures, the verse is cut in half... so most focus on the 2nd half of the verse, instead of the whole thing.

Kinda interesting when you think about it.

[Guest]

All we can do is our best, day by day, and our best changes daily. Christ paid the price in full; our actions show whether we believe Him enough to follow Him.

[bytebear]

Lamen and Lemuel did everything God and Lehi told them to do.

[Anddenex]

I hear a lot in church meetings about doing.You know, the checklist that every good church member mentally checks. My question is: Is doing enough? Is doing what we are asked to do by The Lord through his chosen leaders enough for us to gain salvation or, is there more to it? Anything thoughts and or feelings would be appreciated.

When I returned home from my mission, my first bishop while attending BYU once shared, "There are three components of the human soul: emotional, spiritual, and temporal."

At first I think, why would a perfect, just, merciful, and loving God deny exaltation to any of his children who are converted on a temporal plateau? These would be good hearted individuals who are obedient for obedience sake, but have not yet been converted spiritually or emotionally. Would our God deny them salvation, an eternity in living with him, because they passed off a checklist? I think not, but is it enough?

What about our brothers and sisters who are converted solely on a spiritual level? They have received a witness, they know for themselves, but they rely solely on the mercy of God. In other words, they come to Church, serve in their calling, but obedience ( doing everything on the checklist ) not so important. Keep the Sabbath holy is fine as long as I am with my family even if it is out water skiing, fishing, camping, etc... Will God deny these, my brothers and sisters, salvation? I don't know, but I would think not, yet at the same time I think they will be met with some disappointment.

In scripture, we read prophets who have instructed us to offer our whole souls as an offering to God in order to be ready to meet him, but what really does this mean? Another prophet mentioned how if we have any "envy" in our hearts we are not prepared to meet God. At the end of the Book of Mormon we are informed by Moroni to cast away from our hearts and minds anything ungodly, and to qualify for the grace of Christ in order to be perfected in him. In a similar attitude another prophet mentions for us to put away the natural man and to become a saint.

I would assume the real question is whether or not the spiritually converted or the temporally converted -- checklist brothers and sisters -- have come to a point in their lives that they are able to be perfected in Christ, in other words, have they sufficiently satisfied the demands of justice, through the grace of Christ, to be found worthy of these words found in D&C 45: 3-5? If so, then I see no reason why they wouldn't qualify for salvation.

[Sali]

Brilliant article on this subject in this month's Ensign titled 'His Grace is Sufficient'. This is the link:

His Grace Is Sufficient - Ensign Sept. 2013 - ensign

[McLainDow]

The reason why I asked this question is because I have a friend who is currently serving in a leadership who often confides in me that he feels nothing about the people he serves. He asked my opinion on just "Going through the motions" and I didn't want to give him an answer withoput getting some feedback from other people. All of your post were great. Thank you.

[Wingnut]

become.

This is exactly what I was going to post.

[bytebear]

The reason why I asked this question is because I have a friend who is currently serving in a leadership who often confides in me that he feels nothing about the people he serves. He asked my opinion on just "Going through the motions" and I didn't want to give him an answer withoput getting some feedback from other people. All of your post were great. Thank you.

Even the smallest act can have lasting impact. He may not know, or ever know the impact he may have. Maybe he's not learning the lessons now, but he may in the future realize the impact he is having.

Edited September 28, 2013 by bytebear

[Traveler]

I hear a lot in church meetings about doing.You know, the checklist that every good church member mentally checks. My question is: Is doing enough? Is doing what we are asked to do by The Lord through his chosen leaders enough for us to gain salvation or, is there more to it? Anything thoughts and or feelings would be appreciated.

I believe this to be one of the great questions of religion. Though the answer is actually quite simple it is also very elusive and somewhat ambiguous. Jesus addressed the question directly but that answer is very easy to misinterpret. So without further comment here is the scripture as presented in our somewhat flawed English King James version.

Matthew 19:16 ¶And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false withness,

19 Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I hear a lot in church meetings about doing.You know, the checklist that every good church member mentally checks. My question is: Is doing enough? Is doing what we are asked to do by The Lord through his chosen leaders enough for us to gain salvation or, is there more to it? Anything thoughts and or feelings would be appreciated.

"Doing" doesn't count for anything unless it is done with an eye single to the glory of God.

Luke 11: " 37 And as he spake, a certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat.

38 And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.

39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?

41 But rather give calms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.

42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

The "love of God" or doing things with "an eye single to the glory of God" needs to accompany anything we do. ... it isn't just going through the motions like the Pharisees.

[Traveler]

....

The "love of God" or doing things with "an eye single to the glory of God" needs to accompany anything we do. ... it isn't just going through the motions like the Pharisees.

It is not that I disagree with "an eye single to the glory of God" as a term - except that I fine the term ambiguous. I believe that the scriptures use the term ambiguously by design - but often I believe the term is referenced in discussions in a manner that is touched upon in Isaiah 29:13 to justify things by argument that confuse rather than bring understanding. For example what is the difference in paying tithing with a eye single to the glory of G-d and paying tithing without a eye single to the glory of G-d. Especially when one believes (or argues) that as mortals we really do not know and cannot know what the full extent of the glory of G-d actually entails.

The Traveler

[Guest]

It is not that I disagree with "an eye single to the glory of God" as a term - except that I fine the term ambiguous. I believe that the scriptures use the term ambiguously by design - but often I believe the term is referenced in discussions in a manner that is touched upon in Isaiah 29:13 to justify things by argument that confuse rather than bring understanding. For example what is the difference in paying tithing with a eye single to the glory of G-d and paying tithing without a eye single to the glory of G-d. Especially when one believes (or argues) that as mortals we really do not know and cannot know what the full extent of the glory of G-d actually entails.

The Traveler

This is really quite simple. If you pay tithing because you are afraid you might lose your job if you don't, then you don't have your eye single to the glory of God... you have your eye distracted by your job. But, if you pay tithing because you want to make an offering to God of your first flock... then you have your eye single to the glory of God. It doesn't really matter if you know the full extent of that glory as long as your purpose for doing is to glorify.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is not that I disagree with "an eye single to the glory of God" as a term - except that I fine the term ambiguous. I believe that the scriptures use the term ambiguously by design - but often I believe the term is referenced in discussions in a manner that is touched upon in Isaiah 29:13 to justify things by argument that confuse rather than bring understanding. For example what is the difference in paying tithing with a eye single to the glory of G-d and paying tithing without a eye single to the glory of G-d. Especially when one believes (or argues) that as mortals we really do not know and cannot know what the full extent of the glory of G-d actually entails.

The Traveler

Having an "eye single" to His glory is not to have an idea of what it is more than where we give credit. If one does it for self reward then it is not single. Having an eye single to the glory of God is the opposite of what Satan did, who wanted the glory for himself. Not having an eye single to the glory of God is called Priestcraft.

Marlin Jensen of the seventies teaches; "As I have searched the scriptures in recent months for guidance in my new calling, I have become aware of the importance to our eternal welfare of our motives, our desires, and our attitudes. I speak of one of these today: the necessity of performing our earthly labors with “an eye single to the glory of God.” (D&C 4:5.)

The temptation to seek personal recognition and reward from our service to others is ever-present. The pattern was established in the pre-earth life by Satan himself. There, when the Father explained His plan of salvation for the inhabitants of this earth and the need for a redeemer, Satan responded by saying: “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.” (Moses 4:1.) In contrast, Christ showed us for all time that God’s work is to be done with an attitude of Thine, not mine. Said He: “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.” (Moses 4:2.)

Those who seek honor and gain for themselves in doing the Lord’s work are guilty of what the scriptures call priestcrafts. Of this sin, Nephi stated: “Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.” (2 Ne. 26:29.)"

[Traveler]

anatess and Seminarysnoozer: I love our discussions because it takes me beyond the surface and the trivial in doctrine. I believe the first step towards evil is selfishness and the center upon self. I also believe the first step towards righteousness is discipline - to deny self.

But sometimes I also believe that as religious individuals that we are often too hard on ourselves and that we grind ourselves and others to coarsely. A person that pays tithing for the first time must exercise some discipline to do so but years later as they have weathered storms and remained faithful to their covenant they will, of course learned much and their attitudes and purposes in paying tithing will have evolved, changed and grown through many steps in a journey to bring them closer to G-d. What may have started someone on a journey may not have sustained then to complete the journey. But often there is a first step - sometimes a blind step of hope - and sometimes that blind step is a hope to better one's self. Sometimes the more noble insights will come in time as tithing becomes much more than paying a tenth.

My father was a great man - one of the greatest men I have ever known. He always believed we could (especially his sons) do better and that we should always be willing to learn to do better - but I also came to realize that discovering something better does not mean that what we have done is flawed or to be rejected as not good enough. LDS should not be so caught up in what many preach as perfection (which I think is in essence having an eye single to the glory of G-d. For example we know by revelation that as we do temple work for our ancestors - many of whom never paid a cent of tithing - that they will be redeemed. Not just to salvation but to the highest exaltation as well.

Without question all that are added upon with Celestial exaltation will have mastered the understanding of having their eye single to the glory of G-d. But those that have not been "full" tithe payers or those that have currently found themselves in circumstance where they cannot make up for some time of not paying a full tithe - do not burden yourselves with your past but begin a new - start fresh. Pay tithing starting now. Do not worry about if your spirit is right or if your motives are acceptable. Put aside you uncleanliness from not paying tithing and discipline yourself now to pay a tithe moving forward. Then at the end of the year when you report your tithing status - be honest - tell the bishop that until September you did not tithe but beginning in October this year you had honored your covenant and paid your tithing.

As I understand the economy of G-d you will be blessed and with each payment of tithing you will learn and grow closer to having a eye single to the glory of G-d. Perhaps some day you may wish to stand before a congregation and declare that you have achieved that level of paying tithing with an eye single to the glory of G-d and testify truthfully of such glory.

For those like myself that are still in the process - I will encourage you on in joy and if you now struggle mightily within yourself - as I often do and have done. I am here with you hopping that perhaps we can help each other or encourage each other to hold on a little longer with hope in Christ.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thanks for your response, it is very good. I don't think having an "eye single to the glory of God" requires a master understanding or some level of learning before one can say they are keeping their eye single to His glory. I think the phrase is very similar to hold on to the iron rod, or stay on the straight and narrow. There are not varied pathways to that end. There is only one way. It is not done in our way or our own time or method but His way and that is the only way. We cannot serve God and Mammon. This life is a probationary time to see who we serve and to what degree.

The only process required is to listen to the spirit and follow. It doesn't require a great understanding of where and why, just follow.

[Traveler]

Thanks for your response, it is very good. I don't think having an "eye single to the glory of God" requires a master understanding or some level of learning before one can say they are keeping their eye single to His glory. I think the phrase is very similar to hold on to the iron rod, or stay on the straight and narrow. There are not varied pathways to that end. There is only one way. It is not done in our way or our own time or method but His way and that is the only way. We cannot serve God and Mammon. This life is a probationary time to see who we serve and to what degree.

The only process required is to listen to the spirit and follow. It doesn't require a great understanding of where and why, just follow.

The only certainty that I understand is that if someone does not tithe their income; thinking they are following the spirit - there is without question something wrong. The question of this thread concerns a question about doing. My point is - yes doing is an integral part of G-d plan. There is a possibility that if someone is trying to keep the commandments that they are doing what G-d has asked for the wrong reason. But if they are not doing as G-d has commanded in keeping the commandments there are no caveats - they are wrong. So how does someone get started?

My suggestion is that if someone desires the spirit to guide them then the only course towards G-d is to keep the commandments. Only after they have determined to try the commandments by doing is the spirit able to direct them in the finer spiritual points - because if they are not keeping the commandments there is no possibility that the spirit can or will lead them anywhere. I think this is what Alma is trying to say in his symbolic suggestion of planting a seed to see if or what grows.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

The only certainty that I understand is that if someone does not tithe their income; thinking they are following the spirit - there is without question something wrong. The question of this thread concerns a question about doing. My point is - yes doing is an integral part of G-d plan. There is a possibility that if someone is trying to keep the commandments that they are doing what G-d has asked for the wrong reason. But if they are not doing as G-d has commanded in keeping the commandments there are no caveats - they are wrong. So how does someone get started?

My suggestion is that if someone desires the spirit to guide them then the only course towards G-d is to keep the commandments. Only after they have determined to try the commandments by doing is the spirit able to direct them in the finer spiritual points - because if they are not keeping the commandments there is no possibility that the spirit can or will lead them anywhere. I think this is what Alma is trying to say in his symbolic suggestion of planting a seed to see if or what grows.

The Traveler

What you are talking about is the process Alma explained is the way to turn faith into a perfect knowledge. And he explained that once faith turns into a perfect knowledge there is no more faith. This process comes after the first principles of the gospel has worked in the hearts of the people. This comes after a person has lived the gospel in faith for a period of time but not necessary for salvation. Believing (not knowledge) is the first step. The belief is obtained through the spirit. Faith in the Lord is the seed. Alma teaches it is better to believe first through faith as opposed to having knowledge.

Alma 32; " 16 Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe."

Elder Hales; "Believing in the Savior and His mission is so essential that it is the first principle of the gospel: “Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 What is faith? In his epistle to the Hebrews in the New Testament, the Apostle Paul taught that “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” 2 And how do we gain faith? How do we gain evidence of our Savior, whom we have not seen? The scriptures teach us:

“To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

“To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.”"

Like Alma teaches, we do not want to put ourselves in that category that teaches anything like having to know first; " 17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?"

[mordorbund]

I hear about the "checklist" from those both inside and outside the Church. I think if everyone posted the "checklist" we'd have a different checklist for each poster. The reason is quite simple: because the "checklist" is what God requires of you, and so is different for each poster. For the investigator, the checklist may be "have faith in Jesus Christ, repent, and be baptized"; for the new convert convert it may be "attend my meetings, repent, prepare for the temple"; for the seasoned member it may be "keep the sabbath day holy, do your home teaching, go to the temple"; for another seasoned member it may be "really keep the sabbath day holy, really do your home teaching, save your dead". It is about living up to the light and knowledge an individual has received.

A similar principle is the idea of "magnifying your calling". President Thomas S. Monson said (and I've seen similar statements by other leaders): “[H]ow does one magnify a calling? Simply by performing the service that pertains to it. An elder magnifies the ordained calling of an elder by learning what his duties as an elder are and then by doing them. As with an elder, so with a deacon, a teacher, a priest, a bishop, and each who holds office in the priesthood” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1986, 49; orEnsign,May 1986, 38–39). Don't get caught up in the expanding and enlarging analogies. The first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club. Magnify your calling by doing whatever is required of it. What is required of your friend in his calling? Whatever God requires.

Let's take home teaching as an example. This can be quite the checklist. Have I contacted everyone in the list? Have I taught them a lesson? Have I tailored that lesson to their special needs? Am I remembering significant events in their lives (not just baptisms but also birthdays and back to school)? Am I building a rapport with them outside of a monthly visit so they can trust me with opportunities to serve? Am I setting aside time so that I have opportunities to serve? ....? Multiply this checklist with the number of families on the route and a man will find himself buried in the checklist. Let's ask instead what God requires. I don't know, so I ask Him (the hypothetical me). Unfortunately, I don't get an answer, so I plan my regular visit with my families. I meet my first family at church and schedule an appointment with the head of the household. I first ask how they're doing and standard small talk. I find out they're terribly busy preparing to go out of town until the end of the month. I'm prompted to give them another call when they return, but I won't actually be visiting their home this month unless I receive a further prompting. This is advantageous, because it turns out the second famliy has just found out about a financial upset and really needs my help in learning to budget and the struggles that come staying on that sort of a plan. I'll probably see them once a week in their home and have regular phone follow ups with them. In both cases, I'm magnifying my calling, regardless of how much effort or how time-consuming it is.

If you make a list of every single suggestion that gets made at general conference, you will kill yourself trying to check everything off. If you instead (and I think this is the general practice) make a list of every single suggestion the Spirit prompts you to focus on, you will find yourself endowed with the power to embrace it.

For your friend, has he asked his priesthood leader for training? That may give him some meaning in the mundane tasks and may even eliminate some of the motions. Has he asked God what for a vision of his calling? That may give him some meaning in the mundane tasks and may even eliminate some of the motions.

[Traveler]

What you are talking about is the process Alma explained is the way to turn faith into a perfect knowledge. And he explained that once faith turns into a perfect knowledge there is no more faith. This process comes after the first principles of the gospel has worked in the hearts of the people. This comes after a person has lived the gospel in faith for a period of time but not necessary for salvation. Believing (not knowledge) is the first step. The belief is obtained through the spirit. Faith in the Lord is the seed. Alma teaches it is better to believe first through faith as opposed to having knowledge.

Alma 32; " 16 Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe."

Elder Hales; "Believing in the Savior and His mission is so essential that it is the first principle of the gospel: “Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 What is faith? In his epistle to the Hebrews in the New Testament, the Apostle Paul taught that “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” 2 And how do we gain faith? How do we gain evidence of our Savior, whom we have not seen? The scriptures teach us:

“To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

“To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.”"

Like Alma teaches, we do not want to put ourselves in that category that teaches anything like having to know first; " 17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?"

I believe that faith comes from action and that there can be no faith until a person acts upon a thought or the thought of belief. In fact - I will go so far as to say what ever a person acts upon is that on which they have faith.

I will use electrons as an example. Many have heard of the scientific notion of electrons as an idea - but no one has seen an electron. Even the most educated scientist or engineer is not quite sure exactly what an electron is. In essence we can only deal with electrons indirectly. But we can have faith in electrons. Even a person uneducated in the rigors of science and with little knowledge of electrons can have faith in electrons.

But the only way to have faith is to exercise faith by acting and doing.

If a person is in need of light in their home they will go to the light switch and turn on a light. This is an act of faith in electrons. But if the light does not come on do they lose faith in electrons? No - a person with faith in electrons will wonder if the light bulb is burned out. The will replace the light bulb and act again to turn on the switch for light. Again if the light does not come on do they now lose faith in electrons? No. They continue to have faith in electrons and will change the light fixture, they will repair a plug, they will check a circuit breaker, the will call the power company to find out what happened to their supply of electrons. They will do many things but they will not lose faith in electrons. All this without actual knowledge or much understanding of electrons. They will continue to have faith in electrons and seek means to use electrons to turn on lights.

Where did all this faith begin or come from? It all started from the first time we went to a light switch and exercising faith and belief - turned on a light. But that was only a beginning of their faith. Faith is built over years of turning on lights and learning that sometimes light bulbs need to be changed, light fixtures fixed, circuit breakers checked and so on our faith is magnified by exercising our faith even though we do not know much detail about electrons.

And so it is that we can also come to have faith in G-d by our acts of faith. But without exercising our beginnings of faith by acting on what faith we possess - our faith, belief and knowledge that we once experienced will wither and die.

The Traveler

Edited October 2, 2013 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I also believe the first step towards righteousness is discipline - to deny self. ...

Pay tithing starting now. Do not worry about if your spirit is right or if your motives are acceptable. Put aside you uncleanliness from not paying tithing and discipline yourself now to pay a tithe moving forward.

Maybe I am not following you correctly but it seems to me that you are changing your tune. You first made statements like these (above). Now you seem to be agreeing that faith is the first step. So, what is it for you? Faith in the Lord or do without having faith first?

The "motive" is defined by faith in the Lord.

I am trying to find that story where there was an interview of three people working on the Temple. One of them said they were just pounding stones, another said they were making so much money an hour and the other responded, I am helping building the house of the Lord. They were all doing the same thing but they all had different motives about what they were doing. Christ looks at the inner man and not just the outer. Like the example of the statement to the Pharisees I gave in this thread, doing alone without the right reasons is not fruitful. It will lull people into thinking all is well when they aren't really working on the right things. This life is a test of faith, not a test of knowledge. It is not a test of whether one can put all the square pegs in the square holes in a logical manner, it is a test of whether the person will do what the Lord says to do, whatever that may be with an eye single to the glory of God.

We can both argue that faith and doing are important, I wouldn't disagree with that. What the discussion about is whether the doing alone could lead to faith. It may, but obviously in the case of the Pharisees and many other examples it is not a sure thing. They did the things and never developed faith. Whereas, if one first works on faith and then does, then that is holding onto the iron rod and walking down the narrow pathway. The discussion is about whether there is a difference between faith preceding the action verses doing the action and hoping that faith comes. I don't think we want to promote the idea that seeking a sign, or proof that it works is the best first course of action.

[Traveler]

Maybe I am not following you correctly but it seems to me that you are changing your tune. You first made statements like these (above). Now you seem to be agreeing that faith is the first step. So, what is it for you? Faith in the Lord or do without having faith first?

The "motive" is defined by faith in the Lord.

I am trying to find that story where there was an interview of three people working on the Temple. One of them said they were just pounding stones, another said they were making so much money an hour and the other responded, I am helping building the house of the Lord. They were all doing the same thing but they all had different motives about what they were doing. Christ looks at the inner man and not just the outer. Like the example of the statement to the Pharisees I gave in this thread, doing alone without the right reasons is not fruitful. It will lull people into thinking all is well when they aren't really working on the right things. This life is a test of faith, not a test of knowledge. It is not a test of whether one can put all the square pegs in the square holes in a logical manner, it is a test of whether the person will do what the Lord says to do, whatever that may be with an eye single to the glory of God.

We can both argue that faith and doing are important, I wouldn't disagree with that. What the discussion about is whether the doing alone could lead to faith. It may, but obviously in the case of the Pharisees and many other examples it is not a sure thing. They did the things and never developed faith. Whereas, if one first works on faith and then does, then that is holding onto the iron rod and walking down the narrow pathway. The discussion is about whether there is a difference between faith preceding the action verses doing the action and hoping that faith comes. I don't think we want to promote the idea that seeking a sign, or proof that it works is the best first course of action.

I believe that doing something is the result of faith. As you have pointed out - people having faith in different things can be involved in similar activity. But speaking of the temple activity I will use the example of Adam offering sacrifice - when he was asked why he offered sacrifice he could not answer the question correctly - he only offered sacrifice because he was told to.

It has been my observation that to obtain faith - we start by doing. Note in your example how some say they will believe with a sign? These are people that will not do anything - thinking belief and faith comes first.

In your example of the Pharisees - Jesus never criticized their works - it was their attitude he criticized. He said they would have reward for their actions but not eternal rewards - their reward was what they wanted - to be recognized for doing the works. What amazes me is that many - say they believe and do not even the works of the Pharisees thinking they will have the greater reward??? But in eternity we find that at the judgment day we will be judged according to our works. Works are only an expression of faith - so by judging one's works so also is one's faith manifested and judged. Regardless of how poor a home teacher is that visits only because they were assigned - they will receive a greater home teaching blessing than the home teacher that does not visit - even if such a home teacher attends church every week and thinks to have great faith. There are no blessing for what we should had done and don't - regardless of our attitude or what we think is faith.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe that doing something is the result of faith. As you have pointed out - people having faith in different things can be involved in similar activity. But speaking of the temple activity I will use the example of Adam offering sacrifice - when he was asked why he offered sacrifice he could not answer the question correctly - he only offered sacrifice because he was told to.

It has been my observation that to obtain faith - we start by doing. Note in your example how some say they will believe with a sign? These are people that will not do anything - thinking belief and faith comes first.

In your example of the Pharisees - Jesus never criticized their works - it was their attitude he criticized. He said they would have reward for their actions but not eternal rewards - their reward was what they wanted - to be recognized for doing the works. What amazes me is that many - say they believe and do not even the works of the Pharisees thinking they will have the greater reward??? But in eternity we find that at the judgment day we will be judged according to our works. Works are only an expression of faith - so by judging one's works so also is one's faith manifested and judged. Regardless of how poor a home teacher is that visits only because they were assigned - they will receive a greater home teaching blessing than the home teacher that does not visit - even if such a home teacher attends church every week and thinks to have great faith. There are no blessing for what we should had done and don't - regardless of our attitude or what we think is faith.

The Traveler

We all expressed our faith in the plan and in the Lord as part of the first estate test. So, as far as what came first the chicken or the egg? Faith comes first.

There are many examples of people who will obtain blessings for actions they did not do and solely based in faith. For example, all those that died before the age of 8. Also, if one desires to have an eternal family and has circumstances in which they cannot obtain it in this life, even though they desire to do so, will not be deprived of that blessing for their inability to do. God will judge based on the desire of the heart far more heavily than works, for sure, no question in my mind about that. If they could have done it and don't, I agree, they will be judged on that. The blessing that is predicated on that particular law is not based in the action but the obedience and the desire to obey. The test is to see if we will do the things that we expressed faith about in the first estate test. First we had faith in the plan, NOW we show that we will do what we said we would.

[Traveler]

We all expressed our faith in the plan and in the Lord as part of the first estate test. So, as far as what came first the chicken or the egg? Faith comes first.

There are many examples of people who will obtain blessings for actions they did not do and solely based in faith. For example, all those that died before the age of 8. Also, if one desires to have an eternal family and has circumstances in which they cannot obtain it in this life, even though they desire to do so, will not be deprived of that blessing for their inability to do. God will judge based on the desire of the heart far more heavily than works, for sure, no question in my mind about that. If they could have done it and don't, I agree, they will be judged on that. The blessing that is predicated on that particular law is not based in the action but the obedience and the desire to obey. The test is to see if we will do the things that we expressed faith about in the first estate test. First we had faith in the plan, NOW we show that we will do what we said we would.

I think there is a disconnect - there is no blessings from G-d without obedience to the law (see D&C 130:21). This requires that the law is in force (covenant) and that one is obedient.

I believe you error in thinking that only this life counts (for children and others that die before accountability) towards blessings - Alma Chapter 13 clearly points out blessings were obtained prior to mortality by "exercising" faith. Coupled with D&C 130:21 - we can understand that passive faith is not actually faith. Until one acts (does something) faith is not exercised - it is the exercise of faith that brings blessings.

The Traveler